How Hard Do You Hit the Cue Ball

[drivermaker]

In the past I've stated that one of the secrets of good pool is hitting the cue ball a lot easier and playing to the middle of the table with more frequency. Recently, in another thread, Rude Dog reiterated the exact same thing. Mark Wilson, teacher/writer/pool room owner wrote an article in BD discussing the difference in speed that amateurs strike the CB compared to the pro's. He got a high priced radar gun to initially measure break speeds, with 28.5 mph being the current house record. However, he also measured regular shots and this is what he found:

"In my teaching and playing, I noticed that the amateur player, when shooting a stop shot of the length from the head string to an object ball two diamond length's from the corner pocket straight in generally strikes the CB slightly below center and with a firm stroke. Occasionally, this produces the perfect stop-shot effect, but in comparison to what I saw the pro's doing, it seemed to be too firm a hit. When I watched the top players shoot the same shot, they would consistently place the tip lower on the CB, stroke more gently, and easily produce double or triple the amount of backspin that the amateur stroke would. A gentle stroke meant they could use a shorter and more controlled swing making it easier to achieve the kind of stringent tip accuracy required to avoid a miscue and achieve zero spin volume at impact, creating a perfect stop shot. It turns out that an amateur quality stroke requires a ball speed of 10 mph to produce a stop shot, and the pros were shooting at 5 mph -- half the speed! The difference in a pocket's willingness to accept a slightly inaccurate shot is called the acceptable margin of error. The margin of error on this shot was much larger for the pros because of their slower ball speed". Mark can be found at www.playgreatpool.com and the rest of the article can be found if you purchase August BD.

Seriously, if you learn to play to the middle of the table most of the time, it's AMAZING how easy you can and MUST strike the CB to move it only 4 1/2' on fast cloth without a whole lotta spin that also can cause inaccuracy. Sure, occasionally you have to move it down to an end rail to get shape on balls there when center of the table won't do it, but it sure simplifies the game and increases accuracy when you hit easy, play to the center, and reduce spin. How hard do YOU strike the CB most of the time?

 

[biGhuK]

There's only 3 speeds you need to know. Soft, medium, and hard... So if a shot requires a soft stroke i use a soft stroke. Pool isn't a big index of complicated variables. It's a small number of variables that everyone tries to complicate.

 

[Jon]

There's only 3 speeds you need to know. Soft, medium, and hard... So if a shot requires a soft stroke i use a soft stroke. Pool isn't a big index of complicated variables. It's a small number of variables that everyone tries to complicate.

OK then, allow me to complicate a simple shot.

You have shot this same shot twice before. Different games, different days.
The first time you stroked soft.
The second time you stroked medium.
The first time you missed short of your mark on position.
The second time you missed long on your mark on position. (Assuming the use of In-Line shapes, and running into the ball.)

Well what do you do now? You only know how to stroke three speeds; soft, medium and hard. It looks like you are in a quite a pickle.

You (not just you biGhuK, but all) need to learn that there are infinite speeds needed in this game. Anytime you limit ANYTHING, you limit your game more than you can ever imagine.
I don't limit myself to just "center table" shapes, or just "in-line" shapes or "exact position" shapes or "general area" shapes. You should be able to pick the right approach and speed for every shot.

Just my two cents...

Thanks,

Jon

 

[TATE]

I think the concept really involves what style of player you are. I think the real question is: Are you a power player or a finesse player?

The "spin" types tend to finesse the ball, hit it softer, and use more spin to get position - think Efren and Corey Deuel. They would hit the stop shot low and soft.

The stroke types tend to hit it harder, and steer the cue ball into position with stroke, think Archer, Rempe, and Strickland. They would hit it just below center and firm.

Many of us do both and are somewhere in-between, which is where I am. However, I lean towards being a spin type of player, so I tend to shoot softer - which includes the stop shots, etc. Really, you can get a lot of action with soft shots - sometimes a lot more action than with power shots.

Being able to play firm center ball and stroke for position is really a valuable talent to have. But so is being able to move and kill the cueball with spin when needed. Really, it comes down to what shots you are comfortable with.

Chris

 

[Jon]

I think the concept really involves what style of player you are. I think the real question is: Are you a power player or a finesse player?

The "spin" types tend to finesse the ball, hit it softer, and use more spin to get position - think Efren and Corey Deuel. They would hit the stop shot low and soft.

The stroke types tend to hit it harder, and steer the cue ball into position with stroke, think Archer, Rempe, and Strickland. They would hit it just below center and firm.

Many of us do both and are somewhere in-between, which is where I am. However, I lean towards being a spin type of player, so I tend to shoot softer - which includes the stop shots, etc. Really, you can get a lot of action with soft shots - sometimes a lot more action than with power shots.

Being able to play firm center ball and stroke for position is really a valuable talent to have. But so is being able to move and kill the cueball with spin when needed. Really, it comes down to what shots you are comfortable with.

Chris

Tap Tap Tap.

Good post chris.

Thanks,

Jon

 

[woody_968]

Jon, you are right that there are many different speeds used when playing. But I think one of the big mistakes most people make is never learning a slow medium and hard speed to start with. For me I call them lagg, medium, and break speed, but to each his own. Once you learn these speeds and can pull them up on demand you can much more easily adjust with " a little harder than lagg" or " a little softer than medium".

My speed control jumped by leaps and bounds once I started my practice sessions with just a cueball and practicing 3 distinct speeds.

 

[Williebetmore]

For straight pool, Willie Mosconi advised 2 speeds - soft and softer. Of course this was from a man who once made a 5 cushion kick-in to win a world championship tournament match. Its good to be able to make all the power shots and spin shots - but only if you are forced into it by the need for position. Willie claims in one championship game run to 125 he was never more than 8 inches from an object ball.

The down side of hitting the ball low to achieve a softer stop shot, is that you must be much more precise with your stroke and contact point (you are closer to a miscue). This kind of ultra precision is what Mark W. teaches - it is a real eye opener to see it in practice. Once you develop this kind of precision, draw shots and follow shots are MUCH easier, and your controllable power will improve dramatically (if and when you need it). Just another unsolicited testimonial (anyone who lives within a 100 miles of St. Louis who can't run 100 balls regularly is wasting their time playing pool when they should be taking some lessons from him). These principles will help you reduce the chance of exceeding the "permissible error" that SJM refers to - they help maximize your percentage of makes on all shots (oh wait, that's another thread). JMO.

 

[Rackin_Zack]

Just another unsolicited testimonial (anyone who lives within a 100 miles of St. Louis who can't run 100 balls regularly is wasting their time playing pool when they should be taking some lessons from him). These principles will help you reduce the chance of exceeding the "permissible error" that SJM refers to - they help maximize your percentage of makes on all shots (oh wait, that's another thread). JMO.

Who is it in St. Louis that you're talking about? How do I go about contacting him for lessons?

 

[Williebetmore]

Who is it in St. Louis that you're talking about? How do I go about contacting him for lessons?

R.Z.,
If you check the first message in this thread you will see a little info about Mark Wilson. He is a great instructor, and teaches in a similar manner to Jerry Briesath; one of the greatest (if not the greatest) pool instructors ever. He has helped many great players (including Jeanette Lee) with their games. You will see him as a commentator on the televised men's events, also as a writer in the billiard magazines. A single long lesson with him was a life-altering experience for me. All the things I have dreamed about doing on a pool table became possible. I think he can make an "A" player out of anyone who is willing to follow his instruction and practice. All of those dead ends that we waste so much time experimenting with can be bypassed. His way is certainly not the only way to play pool, but it is the easiest way to develop a repeatable, powerful, accurate, pressure-resistant stroke. Why not make things easier??

If you have trouble contacting him through his website (www.playgreatpool.com), then P.M. me and I will get you his phone number. I think he has recently opened his own pool room, so lessons should be fairly easy to arrange. Feel free to mention that I was singing his praises - he has devoted his life to excellence in pool and pool instruction, just for the love of the game. To me, those are the kind of people that make this sport great.

Don Wardell

 

[biGhuK]

Well john, The only thing that speed effects is where the cueball sits on the table after you stroke it. It doesn't matter how fast the object ball hits that pocket. When you play position with a cueball you can leave some room for error. That's why I say you need 3 speeds of a stroke. If you try and drill the ball an exact pressure and speed then you're going to complicate your mind and mess the entire situation up and more importantly your stroke. You're stroke has to be consistant every single time. No matter if you're rolling a ball or smashing it into the object ball. And if you start worrying about too many variables like exact speed and position then you'll find yourself allowing unseen variables to affect your game. And you won't know what's going wrong. You'll find yourself doing these small little quirks to get the speed right in mid swing and these little hesitations that will make you miss the object ball and sometimes more importantly make you fall way out of position. Using 3 speeds in your stroke is the best option i've found, especially if your stroke isn't rock solid in all situations and gives you the result you expect every time. Trying to master too many variables at a time will just complicate your game and you'll be playing for endless years trying to become a better player beacause of all the confusion. You need a base to grow off of, and that base is your stroke. It has to be the same every single time, no matter what you're doing on the slate.

 

[sjm]

For straight pool, Willie Mosconi advised 2 speeds - soft and softer.

Quite right, Willie. Cisero Murphy once told him he asked Mosconi for advice once about how to become a better straight pool player. Cisero claimed Mosconi's reply was "learn how to hit the balls easy", and that it was advice he took to heart.

Murphy went on to be a world straight pool champion, and the level his confidence reached is best summed up by an anecdote. During an evening session in the US Open 14.1 championships in the early seventies, in the days when the pockets were super tight, Murphy watched somebody run 86 and out on Dallas West. Murphy then asked the fellow if he'd like to gamble when the tournament was over. When the fellow said "are you sure, didn't you just see me run 86 and out on West?", Murphy's rather remarkable reply was "yeah, but you ran 'em wrong."

 

[bill190]

I regularly practice draw shots. It is amazing how slowly you can hit the cue ball and get a lot of draw. Much more so it seems than with a faster stroke.

BTW - When practicing draw, I am hitting level with a closed bridge and I place my hand further back on the butt of the cue. (And chalk *well* before each stroke.)

I've been very consistant lately with my draw shots (draw back distance) until tonight. I played on a new Valley table with new cloth and there was a sticker which said the cloth was treated with teflon? It looked like it would be a fast table, but it was actually slow. Anyway it threw me off on my draw shots. (Need to practice there some to find out what is going on...)

So far as speed of hitting the cue ball, I can hit it so gentle that my opponent will get up to shoot the next shot because the object ball does not look like it will make the pocket, but it just barely makes it. (Croud goes OHHHHHH!) Or I can whack the heck out of the cue ball for long close to the pocket bank shots. Or anywhere in-between. More often than not, it is a softer hit.

I learned how much "gas" is required for each shot by breaking 15 balls, then shooting each shot so it stops just short of falling into the pocket.

 

[Zims Rack]

OK then, allow me to complicate a simple shot.

You have shot this same shot twice before. Different games, different days.
The first time you stroked soft.
The second time you stroked medium.
The first time you missed short of your mark on position.
The second time you missed long on your mark on position. (Assuming the use of In-Line shapes, and running into the ball.)

Well what do you do now? You only know how to stroke three speeds; soft, medium and hard. It looks like you are in a quite a pickle.

You (not just you biGhuK, but all) need to learn that there are infinite speeds needed in this game. Anytime you limit ANYTHING, you limit your game more than you can ever imagine.
I don't limit myself to just "center table" shapes, or just "in-line" shapes or "exact position" shapes or "general area" shapes. You should be able to pick the right approach and speed for every shot.

Just my two cents...

Thanks,

Jon

Jon- Great post! But, where's the smart*ss comments like usual! haha!! Just kidding, again-Dynamite post!
I learned exactly what you're talking about from Tim White at the Billiard Sanctuary. www.billiardsanctuary.com

Zim

 

[Zims Rack]

Who is it in St. Louis that you're talking about? How do I go about contacting him for lessons?

He is refering to Mark Wilson, Collinsville, Illinois. Mark's a great guy and teaches a similar method as I do. I'm about 15 minutes East of St. Louis in O'Fallon, Illinois.

Zim

 

[catscradle]

Softer is better...

... How hard do YOU strike the CB most of the time?

As soft as I can, but often too hard. I like a quote from one of Bert Kinister's instructional tapes, "I don't care who you are, you're hitting the ball too hard." I think that about sums it up.

 

[drivermaker]

Whoa.......had I known you were the head of a family, I wouldn't have given you so much flak in the past. I should be looking over my shoulder to see if you sent Sammy "The Bull" after me, but I think he's still in the clink.

 

[CaptainJR]

As soft as I can, but often too hard. I like a quote from one of Bert Kinister's instructional tapes, "I don't care who you are, you're hitting the ball too hard." I think that about sums it up.

I played Bert a couple of weeks ago. He just opened a hall here in Mechanicsburg Pa. This guy can bank a ball! When we started playing I won two games. Then he said, "I'll be right back". He went into the back room and came out with his glasses on. Well, I didn't win, but at least I made him put on his glasses. LOL

 

[Williebetmore]

SJM,
It was my pleasure many years ago to watch Cicero play at the Hawk's Nest in Pittsburgh. He was a great player, and had a very pleasant and funny demeanor. I have his Accu-stats video match against Mike Zuglan (Zuglan does the player review). It seems that Cicero wins all of the safety battles, even when Mike thinks he has him locked up.

Drivermaker,
Actually "Sammy the Bull" is in the witness protection program. Any information on his whereabouts would be greatly appreciated (just so we can send him Christmas cards and such - you understand).

 

[drivermaker]

Drivermaker,
Actually "Sammy the Bull" is in the witness protection program. Any information on his whereabouts would be greatly appreciated (just so we can send him Christmas cards and such - you understand).

Last I heard, Sammy got out of the witness protection program and went back to his old ways. He was caught as one of the main players of a major ring for the production and distribution of ecstasy and possibly some other things. Back to the clink.

I would love to have a copy of that Cicero tape. Do you know if Accu-Stats still has it available?

 

[woody_968]

It doesn't matter how fast the object ball hits that pocket.

As long as you are hitting the center of the pocket this is correct. But in most cases, you have a larger margin for error if the OB is traveling at a slower speed.