No. I missed it.
How is this a Joss?
- Thread starter Chopdoc
- Start date
I don't disagree. I wonder how high it will go though.
He knows a lot more than me.
This cue made me curious.
I immediately thought it's not a Joss.
Among other things.
Some better pictures would be useful, such as the tip of the points, the joint collars, the joint pin, and the bumper.
However, there are some cues that Joss built that did not say Joss on them. In the early 80s, Jim Rempe played with a butterfly point cue that was taken as an Adam cue, but it was built by Joss. Rempe had a line of Adam/Helmstetter cues at about that time, the line not built by Joss, unlike his. Rempe was often in the first Joss shop on Mylander lane in the early 70s, so that makes sense. Sigel was there in the early days, at least early 70s, and actually worked on cues. Who knows how many came out that didn't say Joss on them. There were some cooperative ventures between both Mike Sigel and Nick Varner, some of which were built by Joss without the Joss name on it. With a Joss in most periods, there is a little more space between the points at the wrap than this cue shows, however some were tight as well. I have a six-point Joss where the points come close to touching at the base.
The Tyler brand, not sure if those were built by Joss or not. It could also be a case of some were and some weren't. Maybe I have a brochure amongst my stack of brochures. Maybe more to follow.
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Tyler's were made by Ernie Chen(Falcon guy) in collab with JOSS.
I appreciate the compliment, but you have plenty of "Chops" when it comes to Joss cues as well. No pun intended.
I have one of those green veneer Pred's made b Falcon with a 30" pre cat shaft. Great player!!!
I seem to remember those two brands being made by the same outfit as well.
billiards_watch
Well-known member
Every post of yours regarding cues should be documented. Good info.
I'll post the Tyler brochure shortly.
And some Joss Sigel examples.
I do believe that both Sigel and Varner had that same decal on import cues.
I would like to see more details too. From what I can see, it does not look right.
I appreciate that. I've been at the hobby for about 53 years. It also helps to have a super autobiographical memory when it comes to point length, dimension, bumper, buttplate, wrap, period, etc. Maybe it's a disease...Every post of yours regarding cues should be documented. Good info.
I do have the earliest known Joss cue to me by its identity. Maybe I should put that in the historical cue thread.
As you can see. It matches a Tyler V-12.
Made in Canada.
Not a Joss.
I am guessing that Sigel (and Varner) owned the rights to the decal, and put it on whatever cue they wanted to.
IMHO, that particular one for sale does not reflect the fit and finish (as far as we can see) that is typical of Joss. The woods in the butt sleeve do not match well, and the finish itself looks inferior, which I don't think is just age. Also, the forearm wood is a less than desirable piece. I don't think you would see that piece of wood in a Joss. It's got a little figure in the middle and that's it. It is neither a proper straight grain piece, not a proper figured piece. I see that as a "second" from the Joss shop, maybe handle wood. Even their lowest end cues don't have a piece of wood like that in the forearm, unless it's maybe stained black like some, then you can't see it.
Made in Canada.
Not a Joss.
I am guessing that Sigel (and Varner) owned the rights to the decal, and put it on whatever cue they wanted to.
IMHO, that particular one for sale does not reflect the fit and finish (as far as we can see) that is typical of Joss. The woods in the butt sleeve do not match well, and the finish itself looks inferior, which I don't think is just age. Also, the forearm wood is a less than desirable piece. I don't think you would see that piece of wood in a Joss. It's got a little figure in the middle and that's it. It is neither a proper straight grain piece, not a proper figured piece. I see that as a "second" from the Joss shop, maybe handle wood. Even their lowest end cues don't have a piece of wood like that in the forearm, unless it's maybe stained black like some, then you can't see it.
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Yep, that looks like a match for the Tyler V-12. Also, the references do show that Sigel's signature ended up on some Joss cues.
As I understand it both Tyler and Falcon were cooperative with Joss.
But not Joss. This is an import from Canada.
To confuse things more, I believe there were later Asian imports. Again, I have seen them called Joss. Like some Biagio and Brunswick cues were Joss. But they were labeled Joss. In spite of that, you will commonly see the imports for sale as Joss.
But not Joss. This is an import from Canada.
To confuse things more, I believe there were later Asian imports. Again, I have seen them called Joss. Like some Biagio and Brunswick cues were Joss. But they were labeled Joss. In spite of that, you will commonly see the imports for sale as Joss.
That's my understanding too. There are Asian imports for about everything cue-related. In fact, from Guangzhou China, you can get designer handbags, wallets, shoes, every luxury watch brand, even used looking silver dollars. All fake. In the case of cues, some of them don't hide themselves as fake, but some do.
Which of course you nailed in post #4.
vintagecollectibles831
Active member
Really poor quality copy, from China. I have seen these Joss copy's from China in the past, and I think they look horrible. They are hurting the rep of Joss too, because the buyer is going to receive it, and see that it plays like garbage, and then think that Joss cues are Garbage, if that happens to be their 1st Joss. Only a newbie to Joss cues would bid on that auction anyways.
The inlays look horrible quality, and no Joss would ever have points that look like that. Those are not Joss points, I do not believe.