How Much is "1 Tip" of Spin?

[RiverCity]

Putting the edge of the tip on the CB's centerline means you've moved the shaft sideways only 1/2 tip width.

The actual tip/ball contact point has moved less than that.

pj
chgo

That is correct, and that is the definition that I use. Because to actually move the cue tip one full tip off of the "ghost tip" that is positioned for a centerball hit requires an visual estimation of where the imaginary tip edge is. Even if you are starting at center, picturing that spot on the cueball and then moving the tip.... there is still some guesswork there (unless there is a landmark on the ball that you can reference).
The real rub to all of this discussion is that the discussion itself is completely meaningless due to the fact that people vary their shaft/tip size and tip curvature.
"Tips" themself are not an accurate measurement of sidespin, yet a personal reference point as to how much english that YOU want to apply to the cueball, with whatever starting point that YOU choose.
Chuck

 

[Flex]

I'd like to know when I go out to the extreme edge of where I can stroke the cue ball with force without worrying about a miscue just what that is...

It's way the heck out there, or extreme, I suppose.

And yes, there definitely are some pretty cool shots that a cue ball juiced with that extreme stuff make interesting.

Capiche?

Or have I confused you?

Flex

 

[androd]

tip of juice

I may be in the minority. In fact, according to the early stats on the poll, I am the only person who believes that if the center of the cue stick is moved to the right 1/2 the diameter of the shaft, that is considered one tip of English/spin.

JoeyA (has his own drummer)

I am in the same minority with you. I have a scribe down my ferrell and from center to edge is one diamond on the short rail, in other words if the CB is one diamond up from the corner pocket, you can shoot at the same diamond across the table with half a ferrell of english and it will go to the pocket. The old timers said one tip for a diamond of english.
Rodney.
PS; works for two diamonds also.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I'd like to know when I go out to the extreme edge of where I can stroke the cue ball with force without worrying about a miscue just what that is...

That's maximum spin.

Halfway there is 1/2 maximum spin.

Etc.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

What makes sense to me

Here's how "1 tip" makes the most sense to me (choice #1 in the poll):



I still don't think it's a good term to use, but at least it makes "internal sense" this way.

pj
chgo

 

[12squared]

Patrick,

I agree with you that "tips of english" is confusing because it means different things to different people. I like you're diagram. rep coming your way.

For example: Bud Green said that a tip of english (full tip) is a 2 diamond spread going the long way (short rail to short rail). Whenever I talk about tips of english I am referring to how the ball travels, not how far I am from center. I can judge this best by using the clock system.

On a 3-cushion table, 1 o'clock is a 1 diamond spread the long way, 1/2 diamond spread the short way across the table; 2 o'clock is a 2 diamond spread; 3 o'clock is a 3 diamond spread; and 4 o'clock is about 3 3/4 diamond spread (max). On a pool table there is a much wider spread than on a billiard table (almost double. So Bud in his example would be 1 tip on a billiard table (he plays 3-cushion).

To me the most important part is to find a way to hit the cueball consistently w/all the different spreads using the diamonds and then label it 1, 2, 3, 4 tips, whatever. This will give you the desired results when you need to rely on it. Let's say the cueball is at the 1st diamond of the short rail and you need to hit the long rail closest to the cueball for a kick, and you have to hit it with reverse to bring you back to the same rail. I add up the total diamond spread I need 1 diamond going in and let's say a total 2 diamonds coming back. That would be 3 diamonds worth of english so I would hit it to travel that distance (3 o'clock on a billiard table and maybe 2 o'clock on a pool table). It's the only way I found personally that made sense of it all. All you have to do is factor in the condition of the cloth (is it wet, dry, sliding, gripping, speed of the rails) cleanliness of the balls; if you are able to stroke with a level cue; and how hard you hit and you're there

Anyway, for what it's worth-it works for me.

Dave

 

[cmbwsu]

When teaching, I like to keep my explanations simple (KISS + knowing my audience). I say simply: "Line up center ball, look at the right edge of the cue, then replace it with the left one".

 

[HollyWood]

answer 1 tip of english,(french,american,english)

1 tip of spin- 1 tip of english Avoid english to the greatest possible extent, strike the cue ball in center never beyond 1/2 hit to right ,left ,top or bottom from center to edge. ( a cue tip from center is max)use half inch med.hard tips. Play draw shots at every opportunity.willie Hoppe the frenchman is the most brilliant,the Englishman the most careful,the American the most successful,and therefore the very best player.Michael Phelan. Mark

 

[dr_dave]

Here's how "1 tip" makes the most sense to me (choice #1 in the poll):

View attachment 89961

I still don't think it's a good term to use, but at least it makes "internal sense" this way.

Patrick,

Again, excellent diagram. I agree that the "choice 1" definition makes the most sense, and it seems like the most common usage of the term. BTW, I have lots of diagrams that illustrate "tips of English" and the effects of shaft size and tip radius in my January '08 and July '06 articles. I think "percentage English" is much more clear, accurate, and consistent than "tips." Center ball is 0%. The miscue limit (i.e., maximum English) is 100%. 50% is half of maximum, etc. 50% English is 50% English regardless of the shaft size and tip radius. I wish everybody would use "percentage English" instead of "tips" since there seems to be several definitions of "tips" out there; and even with a clear definition of "tips," the English amount will vary with shaft size and tip radius.

Regards,
Dave

 

[mosconiac]

That's my real point. Using a vague, undefined term like "tips" to describe the amount of spin is just asking for miscommunication, confusion and arguments.

This is why Little Joe Villilpondo's system is so powerful. He has literally created a language to describe english that we can all understand...if we would just begin using it.

How many times have you heard a commentator say, "He'll use low-right english to get up table". OK, is that 1-tip of 4 o'clock or 1/2 tip of 5 o'clock? A rather imprecise way of communicating about a precision game, huh?

Little Joe would say, "He'll use 5-2 english to get up table"...which means 5 o'clock, 2nd circle. No spills, no mess...simple & clear!

I remember the days when I just stabbed at "low-right" to get somewhere up table...and HOPE I got near the next ball AND didn't get hooked somewhere.

Now that I've worked with Little Joe, I can CALCULATE that I should use 5-2 to hit a specific diamond to ensure I don't get hooked and get the correct angle on the next ball.

For an example, take a look at this run-out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_8BuYiRibQ

Fast forward to about 1:45. You'll see a common situation where I needed to be VERY precise in getting shape on the 8B...to avoid getting hooked by the 9B. I chose to hit the second diamond on the side rail and was able to calculate the spin using Little Joe's system and I hit that diamond.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Percentage/Fractional English

I think "percentage English" is much more clear, accurate, and consistent than "tips." Center ball is 0%. The miscue limit (i.e., maximum English) is 100%. 50% is half of maximum, etc. 50% English is 50% English regardless of the shaft size and tip radius. I wish everybody would use "percentage English" instead of "tips" since there seems to be several definitions of "tips" out there; and even with a clear definition of "tips," the English amount will vary with shaft size and tip radius.

Regards,
Dave

You've stated my case more clearly than I have, Dave; I couldn't agree more. This thread has served its purpose: to illustrate that there is no clear, universal definition of the term "tip" when it comes to english and we should avoid it.

Like you, I like using percentages or fractions of maximum to describe amounts of english ("25% of maximum", "3/4 of maximum", etc.), because that's truly a universal language we can all understand without interpretation or translation.

But how do we make a new terminology popular? One way that occurs to me is to translate the most popular "systems" into the new terminology. For instance, we could say (picking some numbers at random for example): "1/4 of maximum sidespin = 1 diamond of angle change the long way (1/2 diamond the short way)".

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

This is why Little Joe Villilpondo's system is so powerful. He has literally created a language to describe english that we can all understand...if we would just begin using it.

Joe's terminology is clear to those who know Joe's system, but not to others. That's almost the same as "tips" of english - it's clear to those using the terms but not to others. We should try to use terms that don't rely on special knowledge in order to understand them. I think percentages (or fractions) of maximum is the way to go - that means the same thing to everybody without interpretation, and it focuses us on the actual tip/ball contact point.

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

I think percentages (or fractions) of maximum is the way to go - that means the same thing to everybody without interpretation, and it focuses us on the actual tip/ball contact point.

Agreed. Center-ball (0%), 1/4 max (25%), 1/2 max (50%), 3/4 max (75%), and max (100%) are probably enough, and they mean the same regardless of the shaft size or tip radius. Now, the amount of angle lengthening or shortening you get for a given tip-offset fraction depends on ball/cloth/cushion conditions, and on ball speed/angle/roll, but the max angle change (corresponding to max English) can be easily determined for a given set of conditions, and the fractions can then be applied to this maximum.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Roger Long]

Joe's terminology is clear to those who know Joe's system, but not to others. That's almost the same as "tips" of english - it's clear to those using the terms but not to others. We should try to use terms that don't rely on special knowledge in order to understand them. I think percentages (or fractions) of maximum is the way to go - that means the same thing to everybody without interpretation, and it focuses us on the actual tip/ball contact point.

pj
chgo

I agree with this, entirely.

Roger

 

[JB Cases]

Your drawing shows that using "whole tip" english the maximum is 2 tips.

pj
chgo

I know. This is why I think that people mean a half tip's shift from center when they say "use one tip of right". Other wise there is no possible way that anyone can use two tip's of english on a shot.

 

[JB Cases]

I'd like to know when I go out to the extreme edge of where I can stroke the cue ball with force without worrying about a miscue just what that is...

It's way the heck out there, or extreme, I suppose.

And yes, there definitely are some pretty cool shots that a cue ball juiced with that extreme stuff make interesting.

Capiche?

Or have I confused you?

Flex

Here is a ball I made to show you where the "SAFE" zone is where you are guaranteed not to miscue.

Here is a link to that ball: http://www.cuesight.com/csbbtb.html

The edge of the white circle is as far out you can go and not miscue. I did this to allow the user to get used what the usable part of the cueball is. I tested it out with a lot of players from rank beginner to AA speed and none of them could hit outside the white circle without miscueing and none of them who hit inside the white circle miscued - it took me quite a while to come up with this and it works. Since I have used the training ball my own miscue percentages have dropped to almost zero.

 

[Flex]

Here is a ball I made to show you where the "SAFE" zone is where you are guaranteed not to miscue.

Nice!

I know from experience when I want to really spin the rock just how far out I can go without fear. Your cueball makes it easier to understand.

Flex

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Here is a ball I made to show you where the "SAFE" zone is where you are guaranteed not to miscue.

The edge of the white circle is as far out you can go and not miscue.

John, here's a couple of pictures showing a good hit and a miscue right at the edge of the circle around the number on a Centennial 6 ball - where I've always thought the miscue limit is. Is it just me, or is your white circle bigger than the circle on this 6 ball?

pj
chgo

Maximum hit:



Miscue:

 

[JB Cases]

Pat,

In my testing you will get either a very small or no chalk patch on a miscue. It took me around a week to come up with this size and a lot of testing to be sure. I am convinced that the white circle represents the farthest out you can hit without miscueing. IF you are approaching the ball from a forward position.

I have tested this with Shifted English and Back Hand English and it's the same either way.

Outside the white circle there is not enough contact to acheive a solid hit. Inside the white circle it's a solid hit every time.

I will do a video when I have time. On the list

 

[stumpie71]

John that's an interesting cue ball. Reminds me of the Rempe training ball. Both will be great training aids and very informative to use while practicing.