How to Use Pivot Point Knowlege To Increase Error Margins

[ENGLISH!]

When driving a car, what eye do you use or do you use them both?

Which eye do you use to make sure you are in the center of the lane?

When throwing a baseball, which eye is in line with the glove?

When shooting hoops, which eye is in line with the basket?

Greg,

Those questions are ridiculous & show that you don't know that much about the subject.

I guess you think that different sides of the brain do note perform different functions.

Do you know that the image on our retina is up side down just like with a film camera & that it is a portion, not all, but a portion of our brain that reveres the image for the purpose of sensory needs.

NASA did an experiment & had a small group of individuals constantly wear goggles that reversed the image top to bottom. Gradually the brain reverse the image that they 'saw' & when the goggles were removed the individuals 'saw' up side down & their brains then gradually reversed the images back.

Every individual's brain is not exactly the same & neither is what we 'see' as it is interpreted by our brain. Note that I put see in single quotes. What we see is not our vision but it is what our brain interprets from our vision.

Please do some research on the subject Greg.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I had a phone consultation with Gene awhile back, but the line up I gained from speaking with him really wasn't the answer to straightening out the stroke. I actually arrived at the correct solution partly through video analysis and partly from Mark Wilson's book. In fact, I ended up with a head position opposite of what Gene had me doing. I don't say that to knock Gene, it's just that I'm coming to realize that one size doesn't always fit all. I think maybe it has to do with what the rest of the body is doing (foot position, angle of shoulders etc.). It isn't enough to have your eyes in a certain spot. If the body isn't set up right, your brain will still have to make real time corrections during the stroke.

As Vincent would say, "If everybody's doing it, there's a lot of guys doing it. There's a lot of guys doing it, but only one can be the best." Few of those guys is doing it with a straight stroke. Even Vincent, if you look at Youtube, doesn't have a straight stroke!

Regards,

Yes Dan. That was sort of the point of my son's golf story. His body was not aligned with his intended target & intended golf swing. His eyes were looking in one area but his body was 'looking' somewhere else.

I'm not saying that Gene's Perfect Aim is going to fix someone's stroke as that is not what it is about. Gene never had me put my head in an exact position. That was left to me to determine exactly were that needs to be for me to see the true straight line. He did give me a method to go from seeing it while standing tall to continually seeing it until once down in the shooting position & from seeing the straight line properly, that assists in placing the cue properly.

My apologies to Colin for this side track as it was not my intention but one thing leads to another. That's a song I think.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Hi Colin,

Everyone plays differently. I hit many shots with high right or left english. I started doing that when I was 13. Richard Long, an Instructor that I like, had thought that such a strike did not have any squirt. I mentioned that it did but just less so in the exact horizontal direction. I don't think he was convinced until Dr. Dave proved it to him.

It might be good to point out for consideration that the squirt of the cue ball is through the center core of the ball. So... looking from behind the ball at the CB, if one hits at say 1:30 the squirt will actually be in the 7:30 direction. It will also not be on that 90* perception to the shot. I will be from the contact point through the center of gravity of the ball which is the core center of the ball. So it will have a slight forward component to it as well as will all squirts. So, for the high english shots the ball is being squirted into the table & the spin can grab sooner as it is not sliding as in a low struck ball. Now that is given that the speed of the shot allows that, given the coefficient of the friction. Clean slick balls in dry climates play differently than dirty balls in humid conditions.

That does make sense to you, right?

Too early for Cheers here unless one was out last night which I was not.

That all sounds pretty spot on to me Rick!

I try, when space between CB and OB allow, to hit half a tip below 1.30, to reduce the early turning effect. That's not always possible, particularly when playing with an under-weighted 1 & 7/8th inch UK CB when needing the follow for position.

A bit of a chink in my BHE armour, but can be adapted to. And you're right, grippy cloths make the effect considerably more noticeable. Thankfully, we don't need to hit far above the center horizontal axis when the CB-OB separation is large, as friction usually gives us the follow component we need, and if playing such shots with power, the early swerve effect is reduced somewhat.

re: Chi Chi Rodreguez.... have heard of that, sounds feasible, but dangerous. LOL

Colin

 

[Dan White]

My apologies to Colin for this side track as it was not my intention but one thing leads to another. That's a song I think.

Ditto!....

 

[Straightpool_99]

I'd like to see just one post of someone saying the pros are playing the game all wrong. I don't believe there is one outside of ones like yours above.

Here is an excerpt from a recent thread:
"...
Stupid is watching Keith McCreedy years ago, juicing and dancing the cue ball all over the place, which is cool and impressive, but what did he ever win, or do, other than get drunk and lose? Earl has become too aggressive with English, shooting too hard, and now he cant beat a rug...."

 

[Neil]

Here is an excerpt from a recent thread:
"...
Stupid is watching Keith McCreedy years ago, juicing and dancing the cue ball all over the place, which is cool and impressive, but what did he ever win, or do, other than get drunk and lose? Earl has become too aggressive with English, shooting too hard, and now he cant beat a rug...."

OK, but you have to agree that was written by a guy doing his best to get a rise out of others.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Here is an excerpt from a recent thread:
"...
Stupid is watching Keith McCreedy years ago, juicing and dancing the cue ball all over the place, which is cool and impressive, but what did he ever win, or do, other than get drunk and lose? Earl has become too aggressive with English, shooting too hard, and now he cant beat a rug...."

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think when some make statements that they are held to the confines of the thread in which the statement is made. Some make a statement & are referring in general as to the 'climate' & not specifically as to what may or may not have been said in the specific thread in which their statement was made.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Ditto!....

No worries! If dinner parties never had cross talk, they'd be boring affairs.

Bifurcating discussions are way better than dead threads.

Cheers,
Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

Here is an excerpt from a recent thread:
"...
Stupid is watching Keith McCreedy years ago, juicing and dancing the cue ball all over the place, which is cool and impressive, but what did he ever win, or do, other than get drunk and lose? Earl has become too aggressive with English, shooting too hard, and now he cant beat a rug...."

That quote is mean, disrespectful, negative, and not very accurate... but oh so colorful!

Colin

 

[Straightpool_99]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think when some make statements that they are held to the confines of the thread in which the statement is made. Some make a statement & are referring in general as to the 'climate' & not specifically as to what may or may not have been said in the specific thread in which their statement was made.

I agree. Neil wanted an example, and I provided one. I don't think this poster is troll, or anything like that, so I kept his name out of it. I just wanted to illustrate the forum culture at the moment. People are allowed to have opinions about pros, they may criticise as much as they like. What really gets me is the attitude of knowing everything...There is only one true definition of an educated or wise person, and that is knowing the extent of ones own ignorance. The notion of people on here knowing more than Appleton, and somehow KNOWING that they know more, is so ludicrous to me.

The guy spends his life playing pool at the highest level, he's most likely made every shot you know hundreds of times. Any adjustment to such a persons game must be well thought out, which can only be done after careful observation and analysis. At least that's what I'm being told by a coach I know well teaching a different sport but at a world class level. Heck, even my snooker coach was hesitant to take my crappy stroke completely apart, for fear of ruining what was good about it, even though he made several important adjustments. With a guy like Appleton, you'd need a surgeons touch...Not just talking about fundamentals, but mental game and knowledge as well. You wouldn't want to confuse him with 15 different kicking systems, when he might be capable of hitting the ball just as well with feel, and without fear or uncertainty.

You know, there are hundreds, if not thousands of players just a whisker away from Appletons skills. So near, yet so far.. Eurotour regulars, running hundreds, running packages just barely being edged out..They have it all, yet somehow can't quite put it together. .How about teaching one of them, as a proof of concept, to show ones immense depth of knowledge? Surely a guy like that would be the king of the pool world after receiving such a gift from the gods? That would be something worth bragging about. One would easily find work and great respect after that for sure.

 

[Straightpool_99]

Oh, and sorry to Colin for the derailing of his thread. The topic is interesting. I play with a Z2 with a 14 inch pivot point, I believe. Knowing that, I should probably mark that point on my shaft and take that into account when playing. I wonder what the gains would be, and if they'd be worth the hassle of being a bit more mechanical and havin to go out of the subconscious mode to get the extra accuracy? Just one more thing to take your attention off the pot, migh not be good. There is also the issue with inaccurate tip placement due to long bridging (over 14 inches) causing loss of position, even if the shot was made. So I'd get an unknown gain in shotmaking accuracy, with an unknown amount of cuetip placement inaccuracy. If I were to adapt this way of playing I might as well choose a cue with the exact pivot point to match my current bridgelength, and start playing with backhand english, rather than paralell as I'm using now. It's a big leap I'm not sure I'm ready for.

 

[Colin Colenso]

I agree. Neil wanted an example, and I provided one. I don't think this poster is troll, or anything like that, so I kept his name out of it. I just wanted to illustrate the forum culture at the moment. People are allowed to have opinions about pros, they may criticise as much as they like. What really gets me is the attitude of knowing everything...There is only one true definition of an educated or wise person, and that is knowing the extent of ones own ignorance. The notion of people on here knowing more than Appleton, and somehow KNOWING that they know more, is so ludicrous to me.

The guy spends his life playing pool at the highest level, he's most likely made every shot you know hundreds of times. Any adjustment to such a persons game must be well thought out, which can only be done after careful observation and analysis. At least that's what I'm being told by a coach I know well teaching a different sport but at a world class level. Heck, even my snooker coach was hesitant to take my crappy stroke apart, for fear of ruining what was good about it.

You know, there are hundreds, if not thousands of player just a whisker away from Appletons skills. So near, yet so far.. Eurotour regulars, running hundreds, running packages just barely being edged out..They have it all, yet somehow can't quite put it together. .How about teaching one of them, as a proof of concept, to show ones immense depth of knowledge? Surely a guy like that would be the king of the pool world after receiving such a gift from the gods? That would be something worth bragging about. One would easily find work and great respect after that for sure.

A really good and deep insight into How Pool Works Straighpool.

I understand your critique, but am perhaps more blase about people thinking X holds more importance that it really does, provided X has some benefits to some.

As an example, despite the advances in many areas of pool investigation, and systems like CTE, BHE, TOI and so on, I can't recall any of those advocates jumping from local to international level stars. The same players tend to continually dominate the top level, few of whom have much knowledge of, or interest in, discussions on the minutia or pool physics nor of recent trends in aiming system discussions.

Colin

 

[(((Satori)))]

This topic came up on another thread, but I thought it deserved it's own thread. http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=315283&page=3

One doesn't need to be a user of BHE to benefit from using knowledge their cue's pivot point and the effective pivot point, or squerve point for various shots.

When a player strikes a CB left or right of their intended aim on the CB, they are effectively pivoting, when the movement isn't due to a shifting of the bridge hand. They are basically playing unintentional BHE.

We can use this to significantly increase our margin of stroking error in a couple of ways for different types of shots.

On a straightish shot, getting unintended left of right english can throw the OB significantly off path. Also, the off center hitting can change the direction the CB takes.

Hitting left of the CB does NOT however tell us what the resultant path of the CB will be. This depends upon the length of bridge the player is using and how this corresponds to the effective pivot point of the shot.

A short bridge will deflect the CB to the left and a long bridge will deflect it to the right.

Some magic occurs if the bridge is just a little longer than the effective pivot point on a 7/8ths to straight shots. There is a bridge length for these shots, which varies according to the separation of CB and OB, where the CB deflection is perfectly cancelled out by the unintended spin induced throw.

While it's difficult to determine the exact bridge length to achieve this, we can get close enough to significantly increase our margin for stroking error on these shots.

In the case of finer cut shots, the variability in throw for a touch of inside versus a touch of outside is less extreme, so to maximize our margin for error in the case of striking the CB unintentionally off center, bridging AT the effective pivot point, and not an inch or two behind it, is most effective.

So one doesn't need to be a proponent of BHE to use knowledge of Pivot Points and throw to their advantage to reduce the margin for error due to wonky stroking.

Colin

Do you really try to apply this knowledge when you are playing? Are you figuring and adjusting your bridge lengths depending on the shot?

 

[Poolplaya9]

As I said you are very wordy. Methinks thou thinks too much of thyself. Keep reading all of the instruction you can get your hands on and and don't forget videos. When you attain paralysis through analysis let us know. Don't forget to reach out to Appleton on facebook and ask him if he wouldn't mind a lesson from you.

I get it. You think learning is dumb, and Darren Appleton has all of the world's pool knowledge in his head. Both ludicrous and would be laughable if it weren't for the fact that you are actually being serious. Methinks you are one of those people who hates learning, hates knowledge, and is complacent with whatever they already understand and whatever they already know (which usually isn't very much of either when it comes to people of that type). For the world of me I guess I will just never understand how people wouldn't want to learn and improve themselves even if it means being and staying dumb. I will never understand why people intentionally choose that, nor will I ever respect it.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Do you really try to apply this knowledge when you are playing? Are you figuring and adjusting your bridge lengths depending on the shot?

I don't usually lengthen my bridge deliberately on straight ins, because I'm pretty confident I can make them with a shorter more natural bridge length. It's a bit like kicking a goal in soccer from 3 yards out... why bother with a precise run up? My main point in introducing this effect, was to help people understand the interelation of variables, so they could better identify and adjust to stroking and aiming challenges.

But I do often use pivoting principles applying back hand english. If games existed where every shot requires side english, and a player was rewarded by executing side english to extremes, I'd jump pretty confidently onto that tour. BHE is much more powerful in this realm than normal aiming / english feel guess methods imho.

Once someone grasps the concept and learns to be comfortable in pivoting to a stroke and learning the slight adjustments, simply pre-aligning well, as if one intends to pocket a ball with medium firm follow, becomes 98% of their potting game. Using various forms of english is just a matter of executing a process. Some domains are tougher than others... soft CCB stun and 50-70% slow to firm speed outside english come to mind. On 95% of shots, a zero or low adjustment shot is available.

So basically, if one learns this, they can line up every shot like Joe Average, who is a decent straight shooter, but can't use side english to save himself, and then pivot to execute shots with spin that would turn Efren's head. They just need to know the appropriate bridge length for any given shot.

Colin

 

[(((Satori)))]

I don't usually lengthen my bridge deliberately on straight ins, because I'm pretty confident I can make them with a shorter more natural bridge length. It's a bit like kicking a goal in soccer from 3 yards out... why bother with a precise run up? My main point in introducing this effect, was to help people understand the interelation of variables, so they could better identify and adjust to stroking and aiming challenges.


Colin

What does this mean?

Identify and adjust to stroking and aiming challenges? How exactly do you suggest someone use your knowledge to decrease these stroking and aiming challenges? You want them to figure and adjust their bridge length depending on the shots?

 

[ENGLISH!]

I agree. Neil wanted an example, and I provided one. I don't think this poster is troll, or anything like that, so I kept his name out of it. I just wanted to illustrate the forum culture at the moment. People are allowed to have opinions about pros, they may criticise as much as they like. What really gets me is the attitude of knowing everything...There is only one true definition of an educated or wise person, and that is knowing the extent of ones own ignorance. The notion of people on here knowing more than Appleton, and somehow KNOWING that they know more, is so ludicrous to me.

The guy spends his life playing pool at the highest level, he's most likely made every shot you know hundreds of times. Any adjustment to such a persons game must be well thought out, which can only be done after careful observation and analysis. At least that's what I'm being told by a coach I know well teaching a different sport but at a world class level. Heck, even my snooker coach was hesitant to take my crappy stroke completely apart, for fear of ruining what was good about it, even though he made several important adjustments. With a guy like Appleton, you'd need a surgeons touch...Not just talking about fundamentals, but mental game and knowledge as well. You wouldn't want to confuse him with 15 different kicking systems, when he might be capable of hitting the ball just as well with feel, and without fear or uncertainty.

You know, there are hundreds, if not thousands of players just a whisker away from Appletons skills. So near, yet so far.. Eurotour regulars, running hundreds, running packages just barely being edged out..They have it all, yet somehow can't quite put it together. .How about teaching one of them, as a proof of concept, to show ones immense depth of knowledge? Surely a guy like that would be the king of the pool world after receiving such a gift from the gods? That would be something worth bragging about. One would easily find work and great respect after that for sure.

Butch Harmon has said, 'I may not be able to build a Championship Swing... but if I'm not careful, I'm certain I could ruin one.'.

 

[Ron Swanson]

Has anyone actually improved as a player knowing this shit, ever?

I remain to be convinced.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Has anyone actually improved as a player knowing this shit, ever?

I remain to be convinced.

The current popular games don't benefit so much from this type of info. Though it may help a few improve significantly on 3% of shots, or something along those lines.

Push games into stroke mode, where players need to make 2 or 3 rail position off every shot, and they'll get far more interested in learning how pivot knowledge can improve their percentages.

I just watched 2 hours of the famed Ko Pin Yi v Wu Jia Qing and it was an absolute snooze fest. The better they get, the more they dribble balls around the table, getting perfect shape onto shots Swipey McPullacross can make 9 out of 10.

Here's the video if you can stand to watch it all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teGixHdNyKo

I know you're a snooker appreciator, but even that game, imho, doesn't test the type of skills that I think are more dynamic. It's become a game of long potting robots who happen to be good at peeling off 70+ breaks moving from black to reds, rarely with more than a 1/2 tip of english.

They are brilliant at it, but it's a tad mundane imho. The game is far more interesting when they get in positions where they have to travel around the table.

Just food for thought, because essentially, I agree with you!

Colin

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The notion of people on here knowing more than Appleton, and somehow KNOWING that they know more, is so ludicrous to me.

I don't know if you mean it this way, but I think "knowledge" is often confused with "ability" in these conversations. Pros "know how" to do everything in the sense that they have the ability to do it, but in my experience they tend to be a little light on technical details about it.

And anyway, comparing pros with hobbyists isn't meaningful. Of course pros are gonna kick all our narrow wannabe asses with or without technical knowledge - that's not in question. The question is, could a pro gain an incremental advantage with it over other pros competing for his income?

pj
chgo