How would an American fare in the Philippines?

DoomCue

DoomCue

David J. Baranski
Silver Member
I saw a post in Jamie's Corey Deuel thread that prompted this thought. Let's say a top American player had a $100k stake and traveled to the Philippines. How would that player do? I'm talking about ANY top American player, like Corey, Johnny, Rodney, Earl, etc. We hear all the time about Filipino players coming over here and doing pretty well in action and tournaments, but I don't remember ever hearing of an American going there and doing the same.

I can only go on what I've heard, since I've never seen the action in the Philippines, but personally, I don't think that stake would last very long. Of course, lot of that would depend upon the games and spots chosen by the player. It seems like we do a lot of in-fighting here on the gamble, while a lot of the Filipinos actively seek out better players everywhere.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-American. I'm just stating an opinion based on what I know and what I think I know. I think tournaments are a far more level playing field for us vs. them. Gambling, not so much.

-djb
 
IMO, on any given day, an American could do well in the Phillipines. The Filipino players put their pants on one leg at a time just like the Americans do. They don't wear blue and red shirts with a large S on the front of it. They have their good days and bad days just like anyone else.
On the other hand, what the Filipinos DO have is a whole lot of support from the faithful spectators. THAT can definitely work to their favor.

Maniac
 
If you're talking about going into the pool halls and accepting challenges, I would think a top American player would do well for a little while, but I'm guessing that the players there, like the players here, would quickly realize they were playing a world-class player (that is, if they didn't recognize them from the outset), and they'd call up their own world-class player (Reyes, Alcano, Manalo, Orcullo, Corteza, etc.) to come play him. And most of those guys are the favorite over the long haul against the American guys you mentioned. So I don't think "American pro beating Filipino local short-stop" would last long; I think "Filipino pro beating American pro" would kick in.

-Andrew
 
Good post David. For some reason, I recall that quote Bruce Arena (former U.S. soccer coach) said about Brazilians, something like he'd much rather have his top 20 vs. Brazil's top 20 than the U.S. Top 500 vs. Brazil's Top 500. It made me think of the talent level you hear about in Philippines.
 
Hmmmm........actually both American and European players go there in the P.I. not to involve themselves in highstakes gambling but rather to train themselves all about the Filipinos' style of play. there is some gambling involved but the stakes are not that high. you can learn a lot by playing for a mere 5 or 10 dollars minimum per game. and this by only playing against their shortstops (who are freakin many). When I was there, I saw Marcus Chamat entered some local tourneys. the purse wasn't that really rewarding compared to western standards but the experience is more than enough to compensate for it. I watched Marcus get clobbered a lot in matches (including in that tournament). but after spending too much time in the P.I. , I believe more than a year or 2, he'd developed into a fearsome player playing those shortstops alone (not the toptiers).

Additional Info, the 2ndtiers and shortstops there are capable of toppling their own first tiers. many of them are virtual unknown and would rather play under the radar. so the competition there is so vast that I won't even recommend on trying your luck or even try to rob the players there. :D
 
Good question, but it all depends on the player and how well he matches up. Just like being on the road in the USA. If he is going to play the first tier players over there, he needs weight, plain and simple. Even Rodney or Corey must be careful with these bankroll killers.

Now if he plays the second tier players, he STILL needs weight. LOL. Okay, Rodney and Corey can play even with these guys, but few others could. For a good American player to make money in the Philipines he must be very selective as to his targets. Beginning with the third tier players, of which there are many, he will have a chance to book some winners, and get comfortable over there.

Now for more bad news, you will not be playing for very high stakes over there. Our money is worth about five times as much on average. So you will get many games for 2,000 to 5,000p a set. That is $40 to $100. Only by playing with the top players, can you get a bet of say $500 to $1,000. And when you get such a game, you will be in big trouble. Because across the table will be someone named Alcano, Bustamante, Orcullo, Corteza or Reyes. Good luck, you'll need it.

The Philipines is a good proving ground for a top player to improve his ability at low cost. Where else can you go into any poolroom and find someone willing to gamble with you, no questions asked. Forget about spots, just get up and play. It would be worth it for a player like Shane
or Corey to spend a couple months over there, just playing every day. If it costs them money so be it. If they break even, they've had a great trip and come home a better player, just like Marcus.

That's my take after three visits to the Philipines. Gobs of good players looking to play ANYONE! If you play good, it's a field day. Just don't expect to make any real money.
 
jay helfert said:
Good question, but it all depends on the player and how well he matches up. Just like being on the road in the USA. If he is going to play the first tier players over there, he needs weight, plain and simple. Even Rodney or Corey must be careful with these bankroll killers.

Now if he plays the second tier players, he STILL needs weight. LOL. Okay, Rodney and Corey can play even with these guys, but few others could. For a good American player to make money in the Philipines he must be very selective as to his targets. Beginning with the third tier players, of which there are many, he will have a chance to book some winners, and get comfortable over there.

Now for more bad news, you will not be playing for very high stakes over there. Our money is worth about five times as much on average. So you will get many games for 2,000 to 5,000p a set. That is $40 to $100. Only by playing with the top players, can you get a bet of say $500 to $1,000. And when you get such a game, you will be in big trouble. Because across the table will be someone named Alcano, Bustamante, Orcullo, Corteza or Reyes. Good luck, you'll need it.

The Philipines is a good proving ground for a top player to improve his ability at low cost. Where else can you go into any poolroom and find someone willing to gamble with you, no questions asked. Forget about spots, just get up and play. It would be worth it for a player like Shane
or Corey to spend a couple months over there, just playing every day. If it costs them money so be it. If they break even, they've had a great trip and come home a better player, just like Marcus.

That's my take after three visits to the Philipines. Gobs of good players looking to play ANYONE! If you play good, it's a field day. Just don't expect to make any real money.
Click to expand...

Jay, so what is the nut over there? Any tips for someone who might want to take a vacation over there? Crime levels? Will you have trouble getting paid if you club baby seals?

Russ
 
Russ Chewning said:
Jay, so what is the nut over there? Any tips for someone who might want to take a vacation over there? Crime levels? Will you have trouble getting paid if you club baby seals?

Russ
Click to expand...

The nut is low, much lower than here. You can get by on $50 to $100 a day, no problem. Probably safer there than in big cities in America. I wouldn't recommend walking alone in a bad section of Manila at night, but you wouldn't do that in Detroit either. I never had a problem, except with a money changer trying to short change me.

When you play, you can post the stakes, just like here. For small money ($40 or $50), I would just make sure the guy had the money first. For big money games, it is usually posted with the house.

You know Russ, the Philipines is like any foreign country. If you act cool, no one will bother you. If you're a big mouth, you may get in trouble. The Americans who get in trouble over there, usually run off their mouths in bars and are abusive to women. I never had a problem and went everywhere on my own, even down Mabini Street at night, full of bars and poolrooms. Guys will accost you, trying to sell Viagra or cheap watches. I look 'em right in the eye and say PASS! And keep on walking.

If you buy anything from these street "merchants", dozens will follow you everywhere. I made that mistake.
 
jay helfert said:
If you buy anything from these street "merchants", dozens will follow you everywhere. I made that mistake.
Click to expand...

Hey Jay, can I sell you my plastic cue? really cheap and affordable ! May I also recommend that you also buy a plastic cue case along with it? it's also cheap ! :D
 
jay helfert said:
The nut is low, much lower than here. You can get by on $50 to $100 a day, no problem. Probably safer there than in big cities in America. I wouldn't recommend walking alone in a bad section of Manila at night, but you wouldn't do that in Detroit either. I never had a problem, except with a money changer trying to short change me.

When you play, you can post the stakes, just like here. For small money ($40 or $50), I would just make sure the guy had the money first. For big money games, it is usually posted with the house.

You know Russ, the Philipines is like any foreign country. If you act cool, no one will bother you. If you're a big mouth, you may get in trouble. The Americans who get in trouble over there, usually run off their mouths in bars and are abusive to women. I never had a problem and went everywhere on my own, even down Mabini Street at night, full of bars and poolrooms. Guys will accost you, trying to sell Viagra or cheap watches. I look 'em right in the eye and say PASS! And keep on walking.

If you buy anything from these street "merchants", dozens will follow you everywhere. I made that mistake.
Click to expand...

One more question, Jay.. As you know, you can trust most American poolplayers about as far as you can throw them. If you put up serious money backing a player, unless you know them VERY well, and trust them implicitly, it's almost like throwing your money up in the air.

I think in American pool, it is because the subculture doen't really put any stock in honesty and integrity, the #1 concern is money.

Is it the same in the Phillipines? I know I've played in Germany, Korea, Qatar, and a few other countries, and the players there seemed to have a great love for the game, and when they gamble, each player plays straight up, and tries hard to win.

In the Phillipines, have you ever been afraid of being dumped? I know you back champions, and obviously feel you can trust them for large amounts.. It seems the champions at least are very concerned with being honest players. (Barring any shenanigans at the U.S. Bar Table Championships...) Is this mindset prevalent amongst Filipinos?

Can you generally expect your horse to run hard for you?

Russ
 
DoomCue said:
I saw a post in Jamie's Corey Deuel thread that prompted this thought. Let's say a top American player had a $100k stake and traveled to the Philippines. How would that player do? I'm talking about ANY top American player, like Corey, Johnny, Rodney, Earl, etc. We hear all the time about Filipino players coming over here and doing pretty well in action and tournaments, but I don't remember ever hearing of an American going there and doing the same.

I can only go on what I've heard, since I've never seen the action in the Philippines, but personally, I don't think that stake would last very long. Of course, lot of that would depend upon the games and spots chosen by the player. It seems like we do a lot of in-fighting here on the gamble, while a lot of the Filipinos actively seek out better players everywhere.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-American. I'm just stating an opinion based on what I know and what I think I know. I think tournaments are a far more level playing field for us vs. them. Gambling, not so much.

-djb
Click to expand...

Earl went to the Philippines to play in a tournament and won it. Final three opponents were Efren, Busta, and Archer
 
Russ Chewning said:
One more question, Jay.. As you know, you can trust most American poolplayers about as far as you can throw them. If you put up serious money backing a player, unless you know them VERY well, and trust them implicitly, it's almost like throwing your money up in the air.

I think in American pool, it is because the subculture doen't really put any stock in honesty and integrity, the #1 concern is money.

Is it the same in the Phillipines? I know I've played in Germany, Korea, Qatar, and a few other countries, and the players there seemed to have a great love for the game, and when they gamble, each player plays straight up, and tries hard to win.

In the Phillipines, have you ever been afraid of being dumped? I know you back champions, and obviously feel you can trust them for large amounts.. It seems the champions at least are very concerned with being honest players. (Barring any shenanigans at the U.S. Bar Table Championships...) Is this mindset prevalent amongst Filipinos?

Can you generally expect your horse to run hard for you?

Russ
Click to expand...

Generally yes. But I learned something years ago. When there are human beings and money involved, you better be careful. Nuff said.
 
I am an englishman now living here in the Philipines and would agree mostly with what Jay has said. It is a great training ground, and if I was a top player I would consider it an absolute essential to travel here and play.

Arranging matches is no problem and good money can be made for a short time. Darren Appleton from England now travels here regularly and plays, games can be arranged for any amount, I think the most Darren played for against a b player was $6000. However as Jay says they will quickly work out how good a player is and then it is difficult to gamble more than $2-3oo unless you play one of the big guns.

That being said the players here b and c players play to a very high standard and have a huge advantage over foreign players. They generally have sponsors, so they are not playing with their own money and more importantly they play for money and under pressure every single night. It is their only way of making a living and feeding their families. If you gamble $300 and lose the filipino player may make only $30 but this will pay his bills for a week!!!

If anyone is interested in visiting I can help with hotels, showing people around, and introducing suitable opponents depending on skill level. In fact arranging such trips is something I am considering entering into as a business.
 
Russ Chewning said:
One more question, Jay.. As you know, you can trust most American poolplayers about as far as you can throw them. If you put up serious money backing a player, unless you know them VERY well, and trust them implicitly, it's almost like throwing your money up in the air.

I think in American pool, it is because the subculture doen't really put any stock in honesty and integrity, the #1 concern is money.

Is it the same in the Phillipines? I know I've played in Germany, Korea, Qatar, and a few other countries, and the players there seemed to have a great love for the game, and when they gamble, each player plays straight up, and tries hard to win.

In the Phillipines, have you ever been afraid of being dumped? I know you back champions, and obviously feel you can trust them for large amounts.. It seems the champions at least are very concerned with being honest players. (Barring any shenanigans at the U.S. Bar Table Championships...) Is this mindset prevalent amongst Filipinos?

Can you generally expect your horse to run hard for you?

Russ
Click to expand...

Russ- Quick question about middle-east countries. In Qatar, and other primarily Arab countries, what is the game of choice? The reason I ask is I've seen one player from the UAE (united arab emirates) IIRC, play in the WPC a few years ago. He used a snooker cue and had snooker fundamentals. So my guess is that they mostly play snooker, or do they play all games? I heard there are actually a few players from the middle east that play very good. I don't remember the name of the guy I'm talking about.
 
cuetechasaurus said:
Russ- Quick question about middle-east countries. In Qatar, and other primarily Arab countries, what is the game of choice? The reason I ask is I've seen one player from the UAE (united arab emirates) IIRC, play in the WPC a few years ago. He used a snooker cue and had snooker fundamentals. So my guess is that they mostly play snooker, or do they play all games? I heard there are actually a few players from the middle east that play very good. I don't remember the name of the guy I'm talking about.
Click to expand...

Pardon me for butting in dude, I might as well can answer your question. middle-eastern countries are primarily oriented with European billiards which is mainly snooker rather than American pool. one reason is geography. middle-eastern countries are just a border/continent away below the European continent. so the influence is pretty much there. I myself had been in some middle-eastern country. and this is my evaluation of the playing conditions there. they play mainly snooker, then followed by 8-ball and 9-ball. the tables used were usually 7 ft long but with very small pockets fitted for snooker games. some of those pockets are rounded. so trying to cheat the pocket is extremely tricky and difficult. and here is the thing, the house cues were mostly with long thin shafts or European tapered. so it's like playing 9-ball pool (snooker-style), lol. in my experience, there were only a few handful of players that were good enough to play serious pool. but you can still rob them. I'd say the middle-eastern countries are still behind compared to their European counterparts. as evident to this, during the recent world 8 ball championship this year which was held in the UAE (in the middle east), the local/national players there were coached by a Filipino shooter (Elvis Calasang). in spite of these, most of them were eliminated during the early stages of the tournament. only 2 players made it in the latter rounds, only to be eliminated shortly.
 
thefifteen said:
I am an englishman now living here in the Philipines and would agree mostly with what Jay has said. It is a great training ground, and if I was a top player I would consider it an absolute essential to travel here and play.

Arranging matches is no problem and good money can be made for a short time. Darren Appleton from England now travels here regularly and plays, games can be arranged for any amount, I think the most Darren played for against a b player was $6000. However as Jay says they will quickly work out how good a player is and then it is difficult to gamble more than $2-3oo unless you play one of the big guns.

That being said the players here b and c players play to a very high standard and have a huge advantage over foreign players. They generally have sponsors, so they are not playing with their own money and more importantly they play for money and under pressure every single night. It is their only way of making a living and feeding their families. If you gamble $300 and lose the filipino player may make only $30 but this will pay his bills for a week!!!

If anyone is interested in visiting I can help with hotels, showing people around, and introducing suitable opponents depending on skill level. In fact arranging such trips is something I am considering entering into as a business.
Click to expand...
Good information. I guess your Appleton example is what prompted my original post - it seems Filipinos have no problem traveling the world to get action, while Americans don't do the same. For gamblers, it would seem to me that the Philippines are a sort of untapped market. I'm sure the action is tough, but it's got to be a lot better playing mostly even games there than it is here, where everyone wants the world before screwing the cues together. Still, I think our top players would have a tough time gambling over there since that's a way of life there, so maybe that's why our guys don't travel there.

-djb
 
DoomCue said:
Good information. I guess your Appleton example is what prompted my original post - it seems Filipinos have no problem traveling the world to get action, while Americans don't do the same. For gamblers, it would seem to me that the Philippines are a sort of untapped market. I'm sure the action is tough, but it's got to be a lot better playing mostly even games there than it is here, where everyone wants the world before screwing the cues together. Still, I think our top players would have a tough time gambling over there since that's a way of life there, so maybe that's why our guys don't travel there.

-djb
Click to expand...

Correct, it is not soft action. But I think we will see more players going there. What a great place to improve your game.
 
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