I think its always wise to play the percentages and my percentages might be very different from yours. I have left too many banks like this sitting in the jaws. That said, I consider who Im playing, the score, what is on the line...and I make a judgement call. I normally think you should just play the table and forget who you are playing, but in a situation like this, if the game is on the line, I think its an important factor.
Playing a weaker player and the game is on the line, I play safe and hope they don't get lucky. Playing a stronger player and the game is on the line, I bank it and hope I get lucky.
Andrew, I am not gonna get into a physics argument with you. 'Nuff said. Thanks for playing today's game!
"Johnny, show the man what he's won!!"
All I know, is Efren does it. (Uses a long stroke even when he hits the CB very softly.) A lot of the other Filipinos do it as well.)
How is this for causality? When people build their game off a short stroke, they dog it more often. (In general) When people have a nice, long fluid stroke, they make a lot more balls, and get position more often.
Second point. Most players hit too hard. I've seen it..You've seen it. There are things on a pool table that can't be done with a firm (or harder) stroke.
And at the risk of fueling what most certainly looks like your attempts to bait me, I never said anything about the stroke's effect after contact.
If people think they can follow the example of one world champion (Hopkins) and get there with a short stroke, while ignoring the other 100 or so who high nice long fluid strokes, then more power to them.
Sorry, I was trying to bait you, and that was perhaps a little rude. I agree mostly with this post, as opposed to the previous one. You seemed to claim that some magic property of a long stroke causes a higher spin-to-speed ratio, when physics tells us that the only variables that make any difference are tip placement (under our control) and frictional forces (not under our control). (edit: assuming a level cue)
Spin-to-speed ratio is very very important on some shots, particularly when trying to draw the cue ball sharply (without straying too far down the tangent line before coming back), or when trying to control both the CB and the OB (getting CB action without sending the OB too far). But there's no mystical property of a stroke that allows some players to achieve much more dramatic results on these shots than other players. The only secret is hitting very near the miscue limit, and using good speed control while doing so.
And mostly I just like to battle commonly-held myths about the stroke, because I think a lot of people, due to popular misconception, end up chasing shadows in their quest for excellent CB control. In this case, I was attacking your invocation of the "excessive follow-through is required to achieve some certain effect" myth, which is one of the most common.
Oh i forgot to mention that even if you could get enough spin on the cueball at that angle to do the path you intended for the cueball to go, and lets say you missed the side pocket a inch short or a inch long. The nine would go 4 rails and leave a pretty straigh in shot, or at least a shot. you cant hit the nine soft enough to lag to the rail once it misses the side and hit the cue ball hard enough to do what your trying to do. It might look good on that table and its a good idea, just like running 50 rack in a row in 10 ball is a good idea, It just isnt gonna happen
And mostly I just like to battle commonly-held myths about the stroke, because I think a lot of people, due to popular misconception, end up chasing shadows in their quest for excellent CB control. In this case, I was attacking your invocation of the "excessive follow-through is required to achieve some certain effect" myth, which is one of the most common.
No worries... I understand that tip speed is the only thing that matters as as far as CB action is concerned.
I've just come to the realization that for a lot of players, changing follow through length automatically causes them to adjust their speed, and that a lot of amatuer players could greatly improve their play by noticing (and manipulating this occurrence.
On some shots, because of different physical/mental aspects of the required position, it is easier to "slow down" the stroke to make it easier to execute/control the speed, and on some others it is easier to use an exaggerated follow through.
Both do the same thing (for most people) but one or the other of the options might "dog proof" certain shots.
Wow. Well it's really not worth my time to sit here and bicker with you. But you should know that a very similar shot comes up ALL THE TIME in one pocket. Now I'm not saying that it's the best shot for you. For me, it's more reliable than the bank or the cut and I don't like to leave the short rail bank. Next time I have a camera at the pool table, I'll try to remember to shoot it for you.
Wow Drew & Russ sorry im so inferior.........im brain dead also to not realize that you were talking about a similar shot that comes up in one pocket, not the exact shot! Look before you keeep them lil fingers beating them keys on your misled material knowledge, please shoot the exact shot. Not a like shot, or a similar shot. make the ball go in the side and make that cue ball that must weigh 1/5 of your object ball spin to that rail and back like you said in that pic and the one i reffered to that you put up. Just do it and also anyone else that wants to try this amazing feat can try it and report thier results. just make sure that the cue ball and object ball are in the position that was on that table, and anyone try to make that cue ball go like he has it going......you cant make the cue ball do that if the 9 goes in or very close to the side....do they use cue balls where they are from that weigh 1/5th the weight of the object balls? someone has thier angles mixed up...just print this out and use this as a template when your trying to do your test theory of amazement shot....the one that is similar like this i guess
Here is an example that uses a very similar stroke to what you say is impossible.
This shot is VERY possible to do without the 9 ball even touching the bottom rail, depending on how springy your rails are, the humidity, the cloth condition, etc...
Now, a note of explanation here.. The 9 HANGS UP without touching another rail. In this shot, the cue ball goes about 13 feet (6 feet to OB, and then draws 7 feet to freeze in between front two balls..) whilst the 9 only goes 10 feet.
I've shown this to people who never played anything but 9 ball, and they swear it is impossible. Well, the $60 I won on this game of one pocket sez otherwise.
Here's a quick and easy way to put your money where your mouth is. Put up $100 that says noone can put up a video of the shot as diagrammed, where they can get the CB to the designated point, where the 9 ball goes no further than a foot off the bottom rail.
I am sorry bro. You are probably a nice guy. This is not really even the right shot for this situation, I was just throwing an ALTERNATIVE out there... But you are dead wrong on this one.
The whole "C player" thing in my signature is greatly exaggerated, so when I say it is very possible, I wouldn't dismiss it so easily.
But...whatever. Put up some money if you really wanna see some videos. I am betting that will get one up within the hour.
Right now, people can't be bothered with making a video because (like me) they already KNOW they're right, because they have done it, and seen it done. All that would happen is you would remain silent, and they wasted their time.
You are speaking from the other side of the fence, saying it can't be done becuase you've never seen it done. Well, put some money up and give them a reason to show you something new.
I agree on larger pocketed tables, the corner bank is the best shot. It's likely a loss if you miss.
For the most part, us West Coast players who favor (or hate) the tight pocketed Ernesto tables we now have in most rooms, the 4" corner ones, will rarely go for the bank unless we're thinking we can leave a really difficult shot. You never know how you're going to miss the bank and it's too easy to sell out.
I want to post some typical shots we might see in a match on a really tight table:
Safety battle continues until someone leaves or goes for a shot. Even if you mess up the kick safe and leave a shot, it's going to be long and on a tight table anything can happen.
This is a difficult safety situation - no doubt. There really is no right or wrong move, but I will suggest that it's worthwhile practicing your safety and kicking game - it just gives you more options to consider.
The ones I posted are not too hard to execute - there are a couple in this situation that are do-able but are a lot more difficult.
That side pocket bank works really well. I can't do it myself, but one of my friends is really good at it. He either makes it or I'm left with a really bad leave.
well drew i want you to get someone to video you or someone else shooting this exact shot and make the cueball and object ball do what is illustrated here? actually i dont care where the object ball stops as long as it traveled those lines and make sure the cue ball does too. and also i know some one who knows some one who can make a shot? Geesh i was saying anyone who posted on here (Here on this Post) that wants to try making that shot in a game in reality not fantasy pool or in fairyland mind games....i would like to see some one shoot this, maybe i will be impressed to learn how to make the cueball do things that are not fathomed.
I'm just curious - is it because you don't think the cue ball can make the side rail first at this angle, or is it because the side pocket would be small at this angle?
Well now you're not getting a video from me period. Since you're so cocky about it, I'll let you find out when somebody decides to beat you with that shot. You've now had several people tell you that it's possible...give it up already.
Now because this shot comes up so damn often in 9-ball and one-pocket, I decided to learn the best course of action to take. So far, that's the long rail safe is the most consistant. I'd rather play a sure to win safe than fly at a bank shot I'll probably miss and sell out. Oh let me repeat, it's a SAFE shot. I sure as hell don't think I can make it in the side, that's just something to aim at.
Keep on living in your little dream world where you know everything about pool. Obviously, you just need to lose a little more money before you figure out that you're not nearly as good as you think.
buddy hall has a nice lil shot for this layout. he banks the object ball to hit just before the left side pocket and 3 rails it towards the other side pocket while bringing the cue ball back to the upper end rail. you have a good chance of making the object ball in the side 3 rails, if not, it hits the 4th rail and the cue ball and object ball end up on opposite ends of the table. if i'm up 5 or 6 to 0 in the set, then i just one rail bank it. :grin:
you can make that bank all day long but at the speed that you would have to hit the cueball to make it do what he is saying to do with it you are probably not going to make the 9 at that angle...your just having to hit it too hard. even though you cant make the nine and still make the cue ball do what he is saying to do with it....im still waiting on a video
I agree - the speed is too quick to pocket in the side if you're drawing the ball to the rail.
Before anybody tells me this next shot is impossible - all I can say is try it first. Hit the nine just slightly off center with left center (inside). There is enough room for the cue ball to move out of the way and the inside spin causes the nine to bank straight back.
It looks impossible but a few shots on the table just missing the double kiss and you'lll see it's not only possible, it's not as difficult as it might seem.
I highly suggest you put up $100.00 that says nobody can do it exactly as they have described. Then, in 2-3 days when you have no video posted, you can say you are right.
Right now, you are just irritating people that probably play 2-3 balls better than you, and they've just decided to ignore you for the most part.
Drew :shakehead: Tate :thumbup2: When some one banks that shot in the side and can make the cueball do that from where they are sitting:bow-down: Until then your just :deadhorse: :killingme: :grin: :thud:
Don't even try it. This shot was originally put forth as a COMBINATION safety/offensive opportunity. The only requirement is to get the CB to the appointed spot and not have the 9 ball travel too far from the 3rd rail.
Don't try to change the requirements.
But even so...Put out a standing offer of $100 that says the ball can't be MADE and the CB sent to the designated spot.
Put your money...where...your...mouth...is.
Put it right here in print:
"I, 2_Fast_4_Fleas, will pay $100 to the person who can film themselves making this ball in the side and sending the CB to the middle spot on the end rail."
Even though the shot was intended to be more of a safety, where the spend is controlled to either not hit the 3rd rail, or just barely get there, I guarantee if you put up $100 in print, someone will break your heart and edjamucate you, and SHOW you the shot can be made the way you think it can't.
Drew :shakehead: Tate :thumbup2: When some one banks that shot in the side and can make the cueball do that from where they are sitting:bow-down: Until then your just :deadhorse: :killingme: :grin: :thud:
I just don't see what all the fussin' and fightin' is about. Geez, I made this shot 3 out of 3 tries (see post #12) and I pretty much SUCK at pool. If the actual shot is EXACTLY as the original poster has it diagrammed, with both the object ball and the cue ball on the center line, and the cueball EXACTLY in the middle of the table, and the object 1/2 diamond off of the foot rail, then I would think any player worth his/her salt SHOULD be able to bank this shot on a fairly regular basis.
As I stated before, with much on the line (money, case match, etc.) a person might not have the backbone to attempt this shot as a miss could surely sell-out the game. And, as others have posted before, tight pockets could make one change his/her mind about the shot.
Keep in mind that I myself am a safety-minded person and I can see the probable need to shoot one here if the game in question is an all-important one. All I'm saying here is that the long bank is not all that difficult for a shooter of any ability at all.
its a good shot to me the. with left the cue ball will swerve a little to the right, then move a little back to the left before impact, then the transference of spin on the 9 at lag speed. This looks like a more controlable shot compared to any 2 or 3 rail, 4 rail shots....your making the object ball travel just 9 1/2 ft on a 4 1/2 x 9 if you shoot a 3 railer your balls is traveling 20ft plus....i preffer the shorter lag good choice on this one. also Drew and Russ have stinky pants
It's a shot I've been practicing to improve safety play. It's easier to hook people if you can kill the cue ball off the rail using inside and you can create your own angles.
Like I said, we play on 4" corner tables - you don't see many people going for the bank unless it's a 2 way shot.
My table is too fast and tight to take that side pocket shot diagrammed. On a slow table with buckets, somebody would make it once in a while.
someone has thier angles mixed up...just print this out and use this as a template when your trying to do your test theory of amazement shot....the one that is similar like this i guess 
