How Would You Play This? 12/20/08
- Thread starter Jude Rosenstock
- Start date
td873 said:
td,
If I may paraphrase an idea from Capelle's "Practicing Pool" book:
"The key to improvement is to always be in learning mode. Never make a snap judgement. The best players have garnered knowledge from the unlikeliest places."
If you would like to know what has made Efren such an outstanding player for so many years, I will let you know.
It is his three cushion knowledge. He took up the game in the Phillipines when noone would play him any more. It allows him extremely consistent multiple rail position, and vastly superior kicking skills. People think that Efren was just born seeing all these freaky "three rail kick off the back of a ball and get safe behind a cluster" No. It was a developed skill. The reason that American players got trounced so badly by Efren when he made his debut in America is because none of them did anything but play pool. Eddie Kelly and Boston Shorty were dominant, dominant players in their respective eras because they were at least national class at three cushion as well.
Back to the diagram. The only problem I see from this diagram is that the CB is set up too thin on the 5. If a player like Donny Mills says it is a good shot, and he regularly wins tournaments where Tony Crosby and Corey Deuel, then perhaps you should believe him and put in a bit more practice on these type situations.
And for the record, I like this ticky as well. I will give you credit, however, and say I do think it should be shot with a bit of inside to hold a favorable angle on the 6. I personally don't have both the accuracy and speed control to go three rails off the back side of the 8 to consistently end up with a good angle on the 6. If I were to shoot this shot, I would use soft inside follow to hold up the angle off the second rail
Try not to get too hung up on exact ball placements. These shots are VERY good shots to know "just in case" the balls are laying a little better.
Russ
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4 quick replies to your post:
Seriously, on an academic level, the ticky is nice to talk about. But in this situation, when the rubber hits the road, I wouldn't shoot it. And, just because my percentages counsel against the ticky, I'm not sure why that's a reason to bust out "Capelle" and "Efren's Life Story" to try to convince me that it's a good/better shot. I still don't think it is. I'm not going to be converted just because Donny said so and you agree. As I stated, I did give it a try - it's hard for me to execute with a high percentage of success. So, based on my experience I don't like it.
4) If you really think Efren is just like all of us except he has 3 cushion experience, I respectfully say you're off your rocker We all know Efren is like Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods of pool. He is the regarded as the top player in many disciplines by virtually everyone. He's not like us. We could all play 3 cushion for 10 years and still not be as good as Efren.
-td
1) For the record, I was not implying that the ticky was a shot you should never learn, practice, understand or implement in your arsenal. Rather, I was simply voicing my opinion in response to the title of this thread: "How would you shoot this." For me, there are better alternatives than a ticky in this situation. I even posted a video of my choice. My opinion is not based only on the diagram. I walked into the next room and shot this a few dozen times. Based on my ability, the ticky is NOT easy from this position. There is a time and place for a carom ticky. For me, it's not here.
2) It is a fundamental requirement that you accept ball placements. Otherwise you have nowhere to start from and no discussion can take place in response to "How would you shoot this." (Put another way, you kinda have to get hung up on ball placements.) The diagram is all we have to go on. We would get no where if everyone could just move the balls around and describe how they would shoot something else.
3) And I stayed at a Holiday in express. Maybe you should just believe me
Seriously, on an academic level, the ticky is nice to talk about. But in this situation, when the rubber hits the road, I wouldn't shoot it. And, just because my percentages counsel against the ticky, I'm not sure why that's a reason to bust out "Capelle" and "Efren's Life Story" to try to convince me that it's a good/better shot. I still don't think it is. I'm not going to be converted just because Donny said so and you agree. As I stated, I did give it a try - it's hard for me to execute with a high percentage of success. So, based on my experience I don't like it. 4) If you really think Efren is just like all of us except he has 3 cushion experience, I respectfully say you're off your rocker
We all know Efren is like Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods of pool. He is the regarded as the top player in many disciplines by virtually everyone. He's not like us. We could all play 3 cushion for 10 years and still not be as good as Efren. -td
I don't believe this is true. He has played 3C, but he isn't a 3C player. The billiard game he played in the Philippines was balkline. There has been some disagreement as to which version, but the magazine article floating around says 18.2 Balkline.Russ Chewning said:
And, Efren is such an outstanding player because he's super human. It wasn't like he sucked until he learned how to play billiards.
Fred
td873 said:4 quick replies to your post:
1) For the record, I was not implying that the ticky was a shot you should never learn, practice, understand or implement in your arsenal. Rather, I was simply voicing my opinion in response to the title of this thread: "How would you shoot this." For me, there are better alternatives than a ticky in this situation. I even posted a video of my choice. My opinion is not based only on the diagram. I walked into the next room and shot this a few dozen times. Based on my ability, the ticky is NOT easy from this position. There is a time and place for a carom ticky. For me, it's not here.
2) It is a fundamental requirement that you accept ball placements. Otherwise you have nowhere to start from and no discussion can take place in response to "How would you shoot this." (Put another way, you kinda have to get hung up on ball placements.) The diagram is all we have to go on. We would get no where if everyone could just move the balls around and describe how they would shoot something else.
3) And I stayed at a Holiday in express. Maybe you should just believe me
4) If you really think Efren is just like all of us except he has 3 cushion experience, I respectfully say you're off your rocker
-td
Personally, I like the idea of staying on offense. At the time I took this shot, I was itching to run out. The idea to draw off the 8-ball I thought was genius.
Below is the the defensive shot I would have done. I like the idea of playing for a larger window and, the safety itself has fewer pitfalls.
Jude Rosenstock said:
Jude,
You said you were going to try out my shot and let me know how it works out. How did it work out? I've never really practiced that shot, and I'd be curious as to it's percentages.
BTW..I like your safety MUCH better than the three railer on the 8, as you have the opportunity to freeze your opponent on the 8 here. I have seen Efren execute this safe very softly too, rolling the 7 just beyond the 8 but not past the 9, effectively cutting off everything but a 4 rail kick.
Russ
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Jude, thats the shot I elected for in my video. It was clearly the correct shot for my skill level. Very easy to execute and has the highest perecntage of keeping control of the table.
The breakout, BTW, is a very poor choice for me. I tried it about 10 times and only about 5 times did I get out and every one of them were tough outs. The layout is/was just brutal for the breakout. You picked a perfect example for demonstration
The breakout, BTW, is a very poor choice for me. I tried it about 10 times and only about 5 times did I get out and every one of them were tough outs. The layout is/was just brutal for the breakout. You picked a perfect example for demonstration
Jude Rosenstock said:
Russ Chewning said:
I haven't had a chance to get to the room the past few days. I'm going tonight. In my head, I know it's going to work. The only question I have is judgement. I'm curious if I'll be able to pick-up the correct line on the first try. The other thing I like about this shot is, I'm fairly certain if I hit the right-half of the 8-ball, I'm still going to be in decent shape though I could be wrong.
CaptiveBred said:Jude, thats the shot I elected for in my video. It was clearly the correct shot for my skill level. Very easy to execute and has the highest perecntage of keeping control of the table.
The breakout, BTW, is a very poor choice for me. I tried it about 10 times and only about 5 times did I get out and every one of them were tough outs. The layout is/was just brutal for the breakout. You picked a perfect example for demonstration
Ease of execution is critical in the decision-making process. In fact, that aspect should NEVER change regardless of skill level. The other safety that was shown by td873 is fine. In fact, you can pocket the 5-ball with plans on either safety and make your decision based on how you fall for the 6-ball. IMO, the way the 9-ball blocks a portion of the position zone for td873's safety, the possibility of falling too high or low makes this a riskier shot. However, nobody will question td873's judgement if he nails it.
another possibility
I would shoot the 5 with top (or draw), bringing the cue ball just short of the middle of the table. Play the safe on the 6, shooting two or three rails behind the 7 and 8. Cue ball should be as close to the lower right corner pocket as you feel comfortable with. This leaves more balls on the table (harder for a weaker player to run out) and more oportunities for another safe. Ideally, your opponent will have to kick at the 6, and possibly break out the 7/8 or give up ball in hand. The worst that could happen is that you give up a shot on the 6, and there is still the 7/8 ball problem to deal with.
I would shoot the 5 with top (or draw), bringing the cue ball just short of the middle of the table. Play the safe on the 6, shooting two or three rails behind the 7 and 8. Cue ball should be as close to the lower right corner pocket as you feel comfortable with. This leaves more balls on the table (harder for a weaker player to run out) and more oportunities for another safe. Ideally, your opponent will have to kick at the 6, and possibly break out the 7/8 or give up ball in hand. The worst that could happen is that you give up a shot on the 6, and there is still the 7/8 ball problem to deal with.
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If you're giving up that much weight... it doesn't really matter what you do.
You could shoot the cueball into a pocket, give her ball in hand and wait.
7 games to 11... no fun for her... no fun for you... no challenge here.
You could shoot the cueball into a pocket, give her ball in hand and wait.
7 games to 11... no fun for her... no fun for you... no challenge here.
Shortside K said:
Interestingly, given the situation, you're probably right. I could have easily passed the scenario back to her, allow her to pocket the 5 and 6 and let her break open the 7/8.
12squared said:
I like the 2 or 3 railer into the 7/8 too. Easy to get a good angle on the 6 to get down there.
And for all those who think it is hard to get to the right ball...it isn't!
Edit- I know where page 3 comes from. That is what is left after you runout.
I'm with Roy here.Roy Steffensen said:
Mike
Mike Templeton said:
As a rule, you should deal with a breakout as soon as you can. Rarely would you elect to do it on the shot right before you need them broke up... At least two shots before gives you alot mor chances to win. Way too risky to wait. Especially when you have BIH. Almost insane not to di it right away if you are going to try to run out.
The only viable break out, I see, is to just disturb the 8 off the five. If it can be hit, squarely, you have a reasonable shot on the 6. Not the easiest but we should be able to make that shot alot more often than not...
Trying to make the CB do crazy things off the 8 is also a bad idea. Its just too unpredictable to be a real world option. It could be done but if you are playing somebody tough or just want to play the highest percentage, then the best break out is to gently move the 8...
IMO at least...
CaptiveBred said:
It's not crazy. I've seen very good players take this approach. It's actually kinda hard to get stuck this way and you'll have plenty of options if you don't get shape to run out. I wouldn't have thought of this and I'm not saying that's a good thing.
just risky. Again, it depends on who you are playing and how important the win is. High % shot is usually the way to go. Of course, the % changes on the skill level of the player. I won't lie to myself. I can tell when I am in a coin flip or worse
This particular breakout is really tough. I tried a few options a few times and this layout has one pitfall after another when breaking those balls up. Just a bit over this C players head
This particular breakout is really tough. I tried a few options a few times and this layout has one pitfall after another when breaking those balls up. Just a bit over this C players head
I just put the lines up I didnt put any english on the wei table. Its my first time using it. This shot you wont ever get hooked and once you touch the 8 you are automatic towards the 6. You can shoot it the way Donnie said also but I rather hit it thicker so I know i make the hit. Donnies way is good but it is possible you miss the 8 completely trying to think it.td873 said:
this is how id play it, no doubt about it....I saw others with the same idea, but no exactly what id do, these are some of my fav shots to shoot, game over here...no safes for me