How would you play this? Tough leave on the 6

Patrick Johnson said:
That just means hit it straight on from where the cue ball lies. I think the bank makes if you cut it a little to the left (steeper into the rail) with outside english to shorten the bank angle as much as possible, and with draw to keep the cue ball away from the kiss. It's do-able, but it isn't high percentage unless you've practiced it on that same table. Maybe with sticky cloth and balls you can make it without any cut angle, just relying on the outside english to shorten it up. Jerry's probably thinking about that league table with the beer stains and mud balls.

pj
chgo

Hi Pat,

Actually I was thinking of the Gold Crown III at the pool hall with the old Simonis 860 that hardly ever gets cleaned. Oh, and the bar table at the pub with fairly new(ish) Simonis 860 that gets cleaned everyday, where the balls are clean and polished Aramith Super Pros and the cueball is a 2 1/4" Aramith plug ball.

I suppose that what I'm trying to say is that the shot is not affected that much by issues of ball or cloth cleanliness and I suspect that this is so because those issues are neutralized by the speed required. (Of course I may be crazy, in which case, I know you or someone else, will kindly point out the errors in my assumptions.)

Now as to what I meant by straight in the face is.. if you visualize an imaginary line from the long rail closest to the object ball, which extends straight thru the middle of the object ball and is perpendicular to the long rail the contact point is where the line emerges on the other side of the object ball.

I also happen to like Jude's simple yet elegant safety option. It's a question for me of how I'm feeling at the time. If I'm feeling really strong and confident I'll take the aggresive bank but, if I have any hesitation I'd opt for Jude's safety solution.

BTW it's good to have you posting here on AZ. :)

Fats
 
uwate said:
Last night I got on my home table and setup this layout. So I go for the 3 rail kick shot just for the helluva it. First shot the cueball goes two rails and makes the 6. LMAO. WTF!

Welcome to the darkside uwate :cool:

I made the 3 railer 4 out of 10, 3 good safes 1 miss and 2 sell-outs. FWIW.
 
uwate said:
Last night I got on my home table and setup this layout. So I go for the 3 rail kick shot just for the helluva it. First shot the cueball goes two rails and makes the 6. LMAO. WTF!

Then I set it up again and hit the ball full in the face and sold out with an easy shot. I shot it 6 more times, nearly made the 6 three times but sold out or scratched every time.

I also shot the four railer and in 10 tries I ended up with so so results 8 out of 10 tries. 2 of the tries I really sold out as the 6 three railed short and ended up by the bottom corner pocket.

Just for the helluva it again, I shot the bank with bottom right and shortened it up. I made the bank 4 out of 10 times and in 3 of the misses the balls ended up with the cueball on the top side rail and the 6 on the bottom side rail. Still a relatively makeable short rail bank but also missable.

Anyways, just wanted to add in some real world testing to this thread.

Joe Tuckers safety is a great shot. Gonna have to try that one out and see how it goes.


The problem with doing the shot over and over is that the percentages become inflated. The more you do it, the more successful you'll be and you don't have that luxury in competition. The question you have to ask yourself is, which option are you going to be most successful with? The kick exists, so what? It's not the only option and definitely not the best one.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
The problem with doing the shot over and over is that the percentages become inflated. The more you do it, the more successful you'll be and you don't have that luxury in competition. The question you have to ask yourself is, which option are you going to be most successful with? The kick exists, so what? It's not the only option and definitely not the best one.


EXACTLY! I see this all the time.

Junior:
What would you have done there?

Answer:
Not That.

Junior:
Why not I can make it 7 out of 10.

Answer:
No you can't.

Junior:
Look I'll Show you...he precedes to blow the first 3 and then zone in and make the next 6 out of 8. See I told you it's easy!


Answer:
That's right that's why your 10-700 against me. Experience and Treachery beats youth and ability every time. Now add the fact I'm better and experienced makes you a dog.


I piss my self laughing watching guys trying the same silly bank over and over. They think they "own" the shot. Then under game conditions dog the shot because it's a new situation and the don't get 5 do-overs until they get it right.

Nick
 
azbluemach1 said:
Welcome to the darkside uwate :cool:

I made the 3 railer 4 out of 10, 3 good safes 1 miss and 2 sell-outs. FWIW.

Sorry but your shot is still the wrong shot imo.

The others directly above my post here hit the nail on the head. A low percentage shot when shot 10 times in a row, make make the shot higher percentage in that session, but it doesn't really improve your chances of making it that one time in a row, when you really need it.
 
I like my 2 rail kick better than the other kick presented. I have a bigger pocket/safe. But that's a very aggressive play. I personally have practiced this shot though and I feel comfortable with it.

The 4 rail safe is the more conservative option. It's almost impossible to screw it up. Unless you happen to hit it so bad you hit the 7, there's nothing in the way.

I don't like sending the 6 three rails back behind the 8/9. If you hit just a hair too soft, you sell out in the upper right hand corner. If you hit a hair to hard, you sell out in the lower right hand corner. To protect against that you have to freeze the cb to the rail. That's just too many variables for me.

I'd rather send the cb three rails behind the 8/9. I just feel it's easier to control cb speed. But then again, I don't like that shot either. Speed has to be perfect and there's always the possibility of leaving that big window between the 8 and 9.

The last option is trying to duck behind the 7. To me, that's just a stupid shot. Relying on a single ball as a blocker is too much of a gamble for me. Especially one ball that is so far away. But then again. If I'm feeling good about that option, I'd probably shoot it.

Those are the only options I would consider for this shot. The 3 rail kick around the 7 makes me feel very uncomfortable. The pocket is huge yes, but so is that nipple that could easily put the 6 sitting in front of the pocket.


There are five pages.


CueTable Help

 
Icon of Sin said:
I really love how a lot of people on here post up a diagram like this which takes a good amount of thought should you be faced with this situation in a match or a strict practice routine then someone always says to go for the bank shot LOL.

CueTable Help



I thought of three different safes and this would probably be the first one I try.

Dont get me wrong. It's not an easy shot by any means, but it is easier then that bank shot.

Stop the cue ball and play the 6 around to hide it behind the 8 or 9. It's not a hard kick really, but it gets you another chance at the table with the possiblity of being faced with a better shot. Hard to control the saftey on the kick after you execute this leave since the opponent is jacked up above the pocket.


I like everything about this shot. You leave the cue ball tough (on the rail) and if you hit the speed correctly you got a good sized wall to hide the 6 behind. You don't wonna get crazy here and try something too fancy.
 
mudball said:
I like everything about this shot. You leave the cue ball tough (on the rail) and if you hit the speed correctly you got a good sized wall to hide the 6 behind. You don't wonna get crazy here and try something too fancy.

Give me a look at the left side of the 6. I dare you. Unless the 6 is not within a chalk's width of the rail. I'll cut it in the corner all day. If it's closer to the rail, I'll bank it in the side all day. And if you hook me and I can fit a cb between the 6 and the rail, the kick into the corner doesn't look to bad either. Bottom line, if you just stop the cb, you better hope you block me well.
 
uwate said:
Raul Alvarez, a local shortstop down here in Miami, shot this exact shot your propose double hill on the nineball. He was a bit closer to the nine and it also had a good knowledge of the table. The player he shot it against was doing exactly what Jude described earlier...trying to hold himself back from jumping before the shot was over to take his turn and win the game. He was pretty stunned when the nine flew into the corner warp speed and the cueball hit the lip of the side pocket and bounced out onto the table.

Does anybody want to set the balls up and take turns back and forth playing out the game from there and seeing who wins? And yes I will even do it against Raul even though he might hit me with that high tech shiit
 
thebighurt said:
Does anybody want to set the balls up and take turns back and forth playing out the game from there and seeing who wins? And yes I will even do it against Raul even though he might hit me with that high tech shiit

Before I jump in blind to the ole imaginary box with ya, how you shooting it? I just went thru 5 pages and couldn't find your answer. I'll go up against anything I've seen so far.
 
I decided to experiment with the shot using three different methods: 1) the 4-rail bank-safe, 2) Joe T's cross-safe, & 3) my rail-first.

I did not take any practice shots; I just walked up & took the shot just as I would in a tournament situation. In fact, I haven’t played all week and I was shooting with a barabushka. I videotaped it for your perusal and didn't edit it...it is what it is...warts and all…and yes, my elbow drops.

About the setup: I set the shots up the same way, every time. I was going off memory & set the 8/9 nearer the head spot than originally diagramed. Also, I placed the CB a little closer to the OB, but it is on the exact angle originally diagramed.

I shot each shot 4-5 times to see how the percentages might play out in the long run. I was surprised to find that I didn't always get better results on the 3rd or 4th or 5th try. Two of these shots are tough for me to control and a little accidental side spin would prove disastrous.

I called a shot a "success" if the shot resulted in a hook or with no easy return safe. It was a "failure" if the shot resulted in a scratch, a potential shot, or an easy return safe.

Strategy#1: 4-Rail Bank-Safe:
Success: 3 out of 5 (60%)
Comments: I found this shot took a lot better "hit" than it looks to on paper. It’s tough to hit the OB with the right amount of cut without hitting the point of the side with the CB. If you don't cut it a little, you will throw the 6 at the opposite side pocket. A slight difference in the thickness of the hit yields far different results. The shots yields excellent separation of the OB/CB...and a hook many times...but "azbluemach1" is right about an easy return kick-safe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0ZRRNoTYYs

Strategy#2: Joe T's Cross-Safe:
Success: 0 out of 4 (0%)
Comments: I found this shot took a lot more finesse than I thought it would. My instinct was to put a little running english (right in this setup) on the CB. When I did, the results were disastrous. The odds of me falling behind either the 8 or 9 are pretty low. This isn't the right shot for me although Joe T was successful with it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34-L8ooVgHw

Strategy#3: Rail-First Safe:
Success: 4 out of 6 (66%)
Comments: As I predicted, the rail-first shot looks tough on paper, but is fairly simple on the table. Once on the table I realized that the hit needed to be a bit thicker than previously diagramed but I was able to drop behind the 7 easily. When I don’t hook the CB, I give up a (near the double kiss) cross-side bank...which I tried to toss in once & dogged. Why did I do that when I was videotaping! :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoG-bWtnZqE

Conclusion: Looking at the percentages, it's a near toss-up between the 4-railer and my rail-first.

The 4-railer results in better OB/CB separation, but the chances of leaving a cut-able shot or easy return kick-safe are pretty good (40% of the time I would leave a high-percentage response).

The rail-first results in an occasional cross-bank for your opponent or return safe, but you are not at risk of leaving a cut-able shot. Fortunately, the cross-bank you leave will be near a double kiss so it may turn out OK anyway.

For me, the rail-first will yield better results in the long run. I have marginally better odds of hooking my opponent on the initial shot and when I do hit it poorly, I’ll leave lower-percentage options for my opponent.

ps: Before pelting me, go to your table or local pool hall, set the shot up, and shoot it. Let us know how it turns out. I bet you'll be surprised by your ability to hit the rail-first.
 
Last edited:
Wrong Thread

Joe T said:
Before I jump in blind to the ole imaginary box with ya, how you shooting it? I just went thru 5 pages and couldn't find your answer. I'll go up against anything I've seen so far.

Joe, if I'm not mistaken, I think he posted the answer to the 9 ball thread that I started explaining the Buddy Hall safety play on the 9 ball in this 6 ball thread.

I think Jude made that statement to a kick shot off the head rail shot someone posted.

JMO
 
Joe T said:
I love that shot and play it whenever I get the chance. The reason I didn't post it on this one is because the cb is just a little too far away for me.

Agreed, that is a great shot. The only thing I do not understand though is how you cut the 6 ball up the rail with the tangent line off the 6 going to the pocket?

I could see where you could hit fuller and bounce the 6 out slightly to leave the CB there, but hitting the 6 and going through it a fraction to hook someone behind the side "tit" is scary. JMO
 
Joe T said:
I love that shot and play it whenever I get the chance. The reason I didn't post it on this one is because the cb is just a little too far away for me.

I also look for opportunities to use this shot (with the cueball a little closer, of course), and wouldn't hesitate to play it on my GCII. The GCIV's I play on at a local pool hall, however, are not receptive to this shot at all. The shelf at the side pockets is so shallow and so rounded at the edges that it's nearly impossible to even place a ball there with your hand, much shoot a ball to that location. Has anyone else noticed this on the GCIV's, or are these tables unique in that regard?

Aaron
 
mosconiac said:
I decided to experiment with the shot using three different methods: 1) the 4-rail bank-safe, 2) Joe T's cross-safe, & 3) my rail-first.

I did not take any practice shots; I just walked up & took the shot just as I would in a tournament situation. In fact, I haven?t played all week and I was shooting with a barabushka. I videotaped it for your perusal and didn't edit it...it is what it is...warts and all?and yes, my elbow drops.

About the setup: I set the shots up the same way, every time. I was going off memory & set the 8/9 nearer the head spot than originally diagramed. Also, I placed the CB a little closer to the OB, but it is on the exact angle originally diagramed.

I shot each shot 4-5 times to see how the percentages might play out in the long run. I was surprised to find that I didn't always get better results on the 3rd or 4th or 5th try. Two of these shots are tough for me to control and a little accidental side spin would prove disastrous.

I called a shot a "success" if the shot resulted in a hook or with no easy return safe. It was a "failure" if the shot resulted in a scratch, a potential shot, or an easy return safe.

Strategy#1: 4-Rail Bank-Safe:
Success: 3 out of 5 (60%)
Comments: I found this shot took a lot better "hit" than it looks to on paper. It?s tough to hit the OB with the right amount of cut without hitting the point of the side with the CB. If you don't cut it a little, you will throw the 6 at the opposite side pocket. A slight difference in the thickness of the hit yields far different results. The shots yields excellent separation of the OB/CB...and a hook many times...but "azbluemach1" is right about an easy return kick-safe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0ZRRNoTYYs

Strategy#2: Joe T's Cross-Safe:
Success: 0 out of 4 (0%)
Comments: I found this shot took a lot more finesse than I thought it would. My instinct was to put a little running english (right in this setup) on the CB. When I did, the results were disastrous. The odds of me falling behind either the 8 or 9 are pretty low. This isn't the right shot for me although Joe T was successful with it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34-L8ooVgHw

Strategy#3: Rail-First Safe:
Success: 4 out of 6 (66%)
Comments: As I predicted, the rail-first shot looks tough on paper, but is fairly simple on the table. Once on the table I realized that the hit needed to be a bit thicker than previously diagramed but I was able to drop behind the 7 easily. When I don?t hook the CB, I give up a (near the double kiss) cross-side bank...which I tried to toss in once & dogged. Why did I do that when I was videotaping! :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoG-bWtnZqE

Conclusion: Looking at the percentages, it's a near toss-up between the 4-railer and my rail-first.

The 4-railer results in better OB/CB separation, but the chances of leaving a cut-able shot or easy return kick-safe are pretty good (40% of the time I would leave a high-percentage response).

The rail-first results in an occasional cross-bank for your opponent or return safe, but you are not at risk of leaving a cut-able shot. Fortunately, the cross-bank you leave will be near a double kiss so it may turn out OK anyway.

For me, the rail-first will yield better results in the long run. I have marginally better odds of hooking my opponent on the initial shot and when I do hit it poorly, I?ll leave lower-percentage options for my opponent.

ps: Before pelting me, go to your table or local pool hall, set the shot up, and shoot it. Let us know how it turns out. I bet you'll be surprised by your ability to hit the rail-first.


I just sweat all 3 shots, thanks for doing it. I hadn't tried the rail 1st shot and watching you shoot it made me kinda like it.
When shooting my cross safety you were a little too elevated and applying like a low right spin, should have been top,level and smooth with a touch of right.
On the 4 railer for me the angle was no good, if the cue was an inch to left it would be and an inch to the right it's definitely not there.
 
Masayoshi said:
would anybody jack up to jump the 6 into the corner and the cue out of the side? i might if i had a big enough lead. if not id try to bank the 6 past the 7 (if it passes) and leave the cueball on the short side of the 7 just in case the 6 misses. if it doesnt pass, i think id kick to the bottom rail and left and try to pocket the 6 with a rail first, if it misses, there is a good chance ill leave a tough shot or even a hook.

I made the shot you're talking about once when playing a friend of mine for bragging rights. Man was he pissed. Never gotten close since even when I'm just screwing around. I'd never try it in a real game situation.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
I cannot tell you how anxious I would be if I saw my opponent cuing up for this shot. I mean, I would have to consciously remind myself to wait until they were done shooting before I got up and won the game.


Pure gold!
 
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