How would you play this?

Renard,
Nice safety. Bad result.

On a bar table, I did not like the safety that SJM suggests - I think a good shooter makes the 1 ball much more often after that safety than he'll kick it in after yours. On a 9ft. table his safety becomes more attractive (but I would still try to snooker my opponent if he was a world-beater).

The point being of course is that sometimes there is more than one way to skin a cat - pick the way that you are most comfortable with. Also remember that SJM is about 10 times smarter than me when it comes to pool (and Charles Dickens trivia).

It is interesting that a professional friend of SJM's has recently been working with me on a bunch of soft safeties similar to this - and just lambasts me with verbal abuse if I don't execute properly. I think we would be expected to be able to hide behind the 8 with a fair percentage of success (but I also thought the Colts would be in the Super Bowl, so go figure).
 
Williebetmore said:
Renard,
Nice safety. Bad result.

On a bar table, I did not like the safety that SJM suggests - I think a good shooter makes the 1 ball much more often after that safety than he'll kick it in after yours. On a 9ft. table his safety becomes more attractive (but I would still try to snooker my opponent if he was a world-beater).

The point being of course is that sometimes there is more than one way to skin a cat - pick the way that you are most comfortable with. Also remember that SJM is about 10 times smarter than me when it comes to pool (and Charles Dickens trivia).

It is interesting that a professional friend of SJM's has recently been working with me on a bunch of soft safeties similar to this - and just lambasts me with verbal abuse if I don't execute properly. I think we would be expected to be able to hide behind the 8 with a fair percentage of success (but I also thought the Colts would be in the Super Bowl, so go figure).
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I must admit that I analyzed the position assuming this was a nine foot table. The initial post in the thread doesn't say this was on a barbox. Are VNEA matches played on barboxes? I truly have no idea. I've never seen one.

By the way, don't be so modest, Willie. I'm sure that you've learned some shots that aren't in my comfort zone. You have applied yourself to your learning and it is really paying off for you. I know one of these days we'll match up agains and you'll use some of these tricky moves against me. Something to look forward to for both of us!

FYI, I think my fear of double kiss safeties is, at least in part, due to when Jimmy Fusco showed me one of them in 1997 during a tournament at Chicago Billiards in Connecticutt. He needed about five tries before executing it correctly.
 
hey guys great shot renard i say because 3 rails and leaving your opponent a shot in this lay out looks crap to me on a barbox he will either pott the thing without blinking or just play pretty much the same shot back at ya 3 rails and back at that end rail!!!easy as pie.then its your turn to try at another safe!!!!you really want to snoka him if anthing hiding behind 14 is good if you hit the right speed,an the ten watch that scratch,but if you think you can get your snoka outta it then why not!!!!great job but hard luck it happens.in my eyes you got ya snoka wich is what ya needed so nice!but what about getting in hard up with the 8 so it cant be kicked hahaha lol just joking you did good!!!
 
sjm said:
Are VNEA matches played on barboxes?

FYI, I think my fear of double kiss safeties is, at least in part, due to when Jimmy Fusco showed me one of them in 1997 during a tournament at Chicago Billiards in Connecticutt. He needed about five tries before executing it correctly.
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SJM,
VNEA matches are on barboxes (humongous corner pockets, side pockets halfway tight). Most decent shooters will not miss very often on such tables, no matter where the balls are - if you can see it, you can make it. Even shots off the rail are very high percentage. A player like satman (VNEA Hall of Fame) probably misses a shot on these tables once every 5 or 6 years.:) :)

The first double kiss safeties I ever saw were shown to me by Grady Mathews. He executed probably 5 or 10 in a row without missing, then I tried; making 3 or 4 in a row my first try. To prove YOUR point however, Grady again demonstrated some of these on the tight table at DCC and missed quite a few. When I got back to my home table I tried 10, only making 6 of them successfully (way below what I THOUGHT would be my success rate).

Accurate estimation of your success rate on any shot is an important part of successful strategic play (according to my main instructor), and it is possible we all tend to overestimate our success rate on many types of difficult shots.
 
Thinning the 14 and leaving him a long shot is the wrong shot, on a barbox and a full size table. There is a rule of thumb in 8-ball, and just about any other pocket billiards games. If you are going to leave your opponent a long and tough shot, you make for damn sure that he is what William Incardona calls "shooting into nothing", whereas if he makes the shot, he doesn't have to win the game from there. Let me explain why leaving him long and tough is a poor choice. First of all, on a barbox, long and tough shots are not that long, and most definately not that tough. On a common bar table, the corner pockets are very forgiving. If he cinches it in the general direction of the pocket, he's going to make it. Second, if he does make the shot, which he probably will since the thread starter described him as a great shooter, he automatically wins the game with the 8ball hanging in the side pocket. Third, you still have to factor in your speed control on the shot. Fourth, your ball lying near the side pocket is in a very bad position for you. Thinning the ball and just trying to leave him long is merely trying to survive the inning, and you are praying he doesn't make the shot. Your percentages of winning the game after playing this shot are not good.

The best possible scenario is banking the ball and running out. The second best is hooking him, which the person did, but the player kicked the ball in and got out.

The game is all about percentages. If you have the worst of it, DO SOMETHING and try to change those percentages around. Don't just try to survive the inning hoping that your opponent dogs it. I don't mean to sound harsh but again, just trying to leave him long and tough a terrible choice.
 
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You were a little unlucky to lose this after a good safety, but hey stuff happens.
One shot I would feel good playing on a 7' bar box is to kick the 14 in off the side rail, you may make it you may get fairly safe if that one is where WEI shows.
The risk is probably close to even with all the other options suggested, but the dividends are better :)
 
cuetechasaurus said:
Thinning the 14 and leaving him a long shot is the wrong shot, on a barbox and a full size table. There is a rule of thumb in 8-ball, and just about any other pocket billiards games. If you are going to leave your opponent a long and tough shot, you make for damn sure that he is what William Incardona calls "shooting into nothing", whereas if he makes the shot, he doesn't have to win the game from there. Let me explain why leaving him long and tough is a poor choice. First of all, on a barbox, long and tough shots are not that long, and most definately not that tough. On a common bar table, the corner pockets are very forgiving. If he cinches it in the general direction of the pocket, he's going to make it. Second, if he does make the shot, which he probably will since the thread starter described him as a great shooter, he automatically wins the game with the 8ball hanging in the side pocket. Third, you still have to factor in your speed control on the shot. Fourth, your ball lying near the side pocket is in a very bad position for you. Thinning the ball and just trying to leave him long is merely trying to survive the inning, and you are praying he doesn't make the shot. Your percentages of winning the game after playing this shot are not good.

The best possible scenario is banking the ball and running out. The second best is hooking him, which the person did, but the player kicked the ball in and got out.

The game is all about percentages. If you have the worst of it, DO SOMETHING and try to change those percentages around. Don't just try to survive the inning hoping that your opponent dogs it. I don't mean to sound harsh but again, just trying to leave him long and tough a terrible choice.
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Thanks for the education. I can only think of one time that I've played on a barbox in the last twenty five years.
 
From the diagram, it looks like the 10 banks (you may have to stiff it a little). If it does, I'd bank it and slide the cue ball down a little for the 14. Even if I miss, I don't leave a hanger on the 1.
 
I have no idea. You're 13 points down, so I think you have to fire at the 14.

Fred
 
renard said:
Well this is what I did. I played the double kiss that willebetmore suggested with these results. My opponent then kicked 1 rail and made the 1-ball. It was a fast table and I felt real confident with this safe as I have used it in one hole before.

My reason for trying this shot was two fold. First and formost I wanted to play a safe where my opponent couldnt directly see his ball. Secondly I wanted the 10 ball in a better position to enhance my chances of running out.
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so next time hit it a little softer and see if he can kick it 2 rails.
 
sjm said:
I Are VNEA matches played on barboxes? .
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For the most part, yes. VNEA is the Valley National 8-ball Association. Valley being Valley (bar) tables.

Fred
 
I'm with Fred on this one. I would spin the 14 in the corner, get position on the 10 for the same corner and just run out. Wth, when you're down as much as you were, why go defensive? Show him what you're made of and get out!
 
Rickw said:
I'm with Fred on this one. I would spin the 14 in the corner, get position on the 10 for the same corner and just run out. Wth, when you're down as much as you were, why go defensive? Show him what you're made of and get out!
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Ahem.

I think I was the one who mentioned that. Fred just said to fire it in.

Cheers,
RC
 
merylane said:
so next time hit it a little softer and see if he can kick it 2 rails.
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I did i swear! I hit it soft those tables were playing fast. You know the kind were after you stoke the alarms go off in your head, "Uh-oh! I hit it too soft." Those alarms went off but I was pretty pleased with the result. By the way my opponent was on fire that night. He only lost 1 game out of 15 when we played them. He ran out 7 times but we won two of the three matches...
 
Jimmy M. said:
From the diagram, it looks like the 10 banks (you may have to stiff it a little). If it does, I'd bank it and slide the cue ball down a little for the 14. Even if I miss, I don't leave a hanger on the 1.
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I know it's hard to tell with a wei. As I lined it up hitting it hard with low left I could not for the life of me tell if it would go. I would look at ....yeahhhh...nahhhhh....shhhhiii.....i dunno. After the game was over I told him that maybe I should have tried it. He said, "I didnt think it would go...that was a good safe though."

Not only was this guy a very good shot but a very nice guy as well. Made me feel better about the shot I attempted.
 
sixpack said:
Ahem.

I think I was the one who mentioned that. Fred just said to fire it in.

Cheers,
RC
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Sorry, my bad, but I do like your style! Sometimes, and this sounds like it was definitely one of those times, you just got to go for the gusto!
 
renard said:
I did i swear! I hit it soft those tables were playing fast. You know the kind were after you stoke the alarms go off in your head, "Uh-oh! I hit it too soft." Those alarms went off but I was pretty pleased with the result. By the way my opponent was on fire that night. He only lost 1 game out of 15 when we played them. He ran out 7 times but we won two of the three matches...
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Renard,
If I'm trying to win this game, I want to get the 10 in play. It's in a bad spot right now. I might try thin hitting the 10 so it slides either by the side pocket (blocking the 8) or just past. I would use low right english on the cue ball to bring it down along the side rail, leaving only a bank on the solid ball remaining. And he can't bank at the side because the 8 is in the way. Now you have both your balls in play and he has a problem playing safe.
This is not a hard shot to execute and it can win the game for you.
 
jay helfert said:
Renard,
If I'm trying to win this game, I want to get the 10 in play. It's in a bad spot right now. I might try thin hitting the 10 so it slides either by the side pocket (blocking the 8) or just past. I would use low right english on the cue ball to bring it down along the side rail, leaving only a bank on the solid ball remaining. And he can't bank at the side because the 8 is in the way. Now you have both your balls in play and he has a problem playing safe.
This is not a hard shot to execute and it can win the game for you.
Click to expand...

So me in the wei...please.
(Hey that almost makes me a rapper!)
 
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