satman said:
that's what pressure can do ! you concentrate to hard for the win, well in fact that you already got the win. LOL !
How would you rule in this situation?
- Thread starter kobyp
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that's what pressure can do ! you concentrate to hard for the win, well in fact that you already got the win. LOL !
kobyp said:
the valid argument of the opponent here my friend, is the fact that he realized that your colleague did foul and lost the match. should he be punished for stating what is right?
kobyp said:
again, you reminded me of Earl's moral stand. the ref didn't see it, so it's ok!
anyway, I got some experiences with people of your kind. they don't call fouls on themselves, deny that they in fact fouled and argued that it's ok because nobody saw what happened. believe me, it's not a pretty sight thereafter. pool should promote goodwill and not illwill by tolerating dishonest behavior. the sad fact that people hide under so-called viable excuse of rules just to justify their dishonesty and clear loss, is comparable to that of lawyers trying to justify their client's stealing habit.
I guess the most important thing for you is the WIN, whether if it's gained from legal or illegal actions. truly a SAD day for POOL.
PoolBum said:
Yes, all infractions is what the rules states.
But in your example, by resurfacing the cue ball, you would have overtly cheated. Outright cheating is a whole different matter than, for example, playing a ball out of turn and continuing to shoot if your opponent doesn't call the foul.
By rule, it is up the the opponent to call a foul and if he does not, then by shooting again, you have extinguished the foul and it is your opponent's fault. And it cannot by PHYSICALLY OBSERVED that you knew you had shot out of turn.
But by resurfacing a scratched cue ball then that is just pure, inexcusable cheating that CAN be physically observed.
Extinguishing fouls once play has resumed is an age old rule in most sports...actaully all sports that I can think of. And I don't think it encourages unsportsmanlike behavior as much as it encourages the opponent to do his DUTY to pay attention to the action.
If a player is so unobservant that he doesn't see his opponent scratch NOR even see him retrieve the CB and place it back on the table, then he sort of deserves what he gets IMHO.
Regards,
Jim
Interesting that this is posted tonight. I played APA tonight. I am the captain of the team. I was scoring for my team. My player was taking his warm up strokes when he nudged the cue ball. This is a foul. My player did not call they foul and continued to take a few more strokes. Nobody including the opposing team said anything. I jumped up and called the foul on my own player. Even after the call the opposing team seemed to not know what was going on. We gave the opposing player ball in hand and he ran out. We lost the game and the match. I cannot stand all the petty fighting and complaining in the league. I try to play by the rules. I want to win... fairly. Otherwise, its not competition.
Hail Mary Shot said:
Does Derek Jeter when ball 4 is called, and it looked like a strike say, you know that was really a strike so I can't because of sportsmanship take my base sorry. Would Lebron James stop dribbling and hand the basketball over to the other team because he walked with the ball when the refs didn't catch it? This calling fouls on yourself notion is complete nonsense nobody should ever, ever call a foul on themselves PERIOD. It does't matter the speed of the game or sport being played, I dont care if its one on one, or if the game has referees or not, it is not in any major sport up to the player commiting the penalty to call it on himself NOR do we EVER EXPECT HIM TO. Why in the hell should it be any different in pool.
Hail Mary Shot said:again, you reminded me of Earl's moral stand. the ref didn't see it, so it's ok!
anyway, I got some experiences with people of your kind. they don't call fouls on themselves, deny that they in fact fouled and argued that it's ok because nobody saw what happened. believe me, it's not a pretty sight thereafter. pool should promote goodwill and not illwill by tolerating dishonest behavior. the sad fact that people hide under so-called viable excuse of rules just to justify their dishonesty and clear loss, is comparable to that of lawyers trying to justify their client's stealing habit.
I guess the most important thing for you is the WIN, whether if it's gained from legal or illegal actions. truly a SAD day for POOL.
You can't be serious!
That is EXACTLY what you see during every football/baseball/basketball game ever played!!!
The pass defender INTENTIONALLY gets all over the receiver but hopes he positioned himself so the refs couldn't see it. Then when he gets called for it, he puts his arms out to his side with a pained "I AM INNOCENT" expression on his face while his coach storms up and down the sidelines...throws his clip board angrily to the ground while cussing the ref for a fool.
DITTO with all other major sports with the exception of golf where the players don't generally scream at the officials.
So why should pool...ESPECIALLY POOL...be held to any higher standard than almost all other sports??
Most pool games have NEVER had a reputation for pristine, gentlemanly behavior except possibly 3 cushion.
And as noted elsewhere, failing to call a foul on yourself is not a violation of any specific rule!!! But it IS the responsibility of the players to know the rules and to call fouls in tournament play when no ref is watching a given game...BEFORE play continues.
Regards,
Jim
av84fun said:
Atleast someone else has some sense around here, I dont want his points or mine ignored (like they usually are when nobody has an answer to obvious logic on here). I need someone tell us why pool should be different than any other major sport.
kaznj said:
I repped you for this post! This is the way the game should be played, IMO.
Let me play devil's advocate for a moment. Say I grazed the cue ball on a practice stroke and instead decided to play it off hoping it wasn't noticed. Say my opponent was testing me and didn't say anything, waiting to see if I would. Well, if honesty weren't worth something to me, then maybe this is....
I now deserve the TD to be called over to watch the hit on my shot on every single shot for the rest of my life, whether there is reasonable chance of a close hit or not. In other words, I cannot be trusted to play without a referee present.
Some fouls cannot be detected without someone watching closely. That's why the ref stands so close to the table when they are watching the hit. To anyone who doesn't want to call their own fouls, do you mind if I or the ref stands right next to the table on every single one of your shots?
kaznj said:
There is a certain nobility in what you did and as I said in another post, I would call the foul on MYSELF.
But if you were the coach of a major sports team...college or pro...and you did that, you would be fired on the spot!
In most sports, the players are TAUGHT how to foul without getting caught and they do it ALL THE TIME.
Your player violated no rule by not announcing the foul (please point out any such rule if you think I am mistaken) and to the contrary, it is the opponent's DUTY to pay attention to the game and call fouls when they think one has been committed.
In fact, the rules SPECIFICALLY CONTEMPLATE that fouls will sometimes be missed and EXCUSE such fouls if play has continued.
Personally, I think you did your team a disservice by CLEARLY holding pool to a vastly higher standard than most other sports.
Of course, I genuinely respect your right to make any such decisions you see fit. All I am saying is that the rules do not require self-called fouls and I am opposed to anyone imposing their own rules on other people.
Regards,
Jim
still nothing
Cuebacca said:Well, one answer in this case is that those other sports have refs and pool does not.
Yes it does, the other player acts as the ref. And even if they didn't the logic doesn't follow, that because there isn't an active referee watching every shot, that a player should be his own referee, that isn't the active players job. Next.
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RunoutalloverU said:
I call fouls on myself because I would like my opponent to do the same. I can't always expect that, so if I am playing some one that is questionable, I watch more closely. I think it is good sportsmanship, that's all.
Go ahead and call me a stupid-ass or whatever, but I will keep on doing it, I can't help it.
I will qualify this slightly, by saying although calling a foul on yourself is absurdity at its utmost, I know when I foul that when another player calls it on me, that I accept it immediately end of discussion, I never argue about a foul I know I committed when I am called on it. That maybe where the disconnect is happening with the thinking behind this. So although I think it goes against any and all sports logic that one should call a foul on themselves, it is poor sportsmanship to actively lie or dispute when knowingly the player has commited that foul. Maybe that will clear some of this thinking up.
av84fun said:
if this was so, then expect a lot of fights happening in pool. I guess that must be a pretty sight for you. pretty good for pool also, ey?
Cuebacca said:
Briefly...read post #68.
But in addition, deserving to to have a ref watch you for the rest of your life is ALREADY the standard in tournament play where, when area refs are used THE PLAYERS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR MONITORING THE GAME AND CALLING FOULS WHEN THEY SEE THEM!
So, your play IS being monitored...or should be.
You opponent is SUPPOSED to monitor your play and you are SUPPOSED to monitor theirs.
Again, if it was just me playing an opponent, I would CHOOSE to call a foul on myself but NOT out of any sense of duty to the opponent or to be "fair" or to be "noble" but rather because I...PERSONALLY...would not care to win based in whole or in part on an undetected foul.
But there is NO WAY, I would call such a foul on myself and sure as hell not on a TEAMMATE in team play unless the team had decided in advance that we would do that.
BY RULE, an undected foul is DEEMED NOT TO HAVE OCCURRED, if play continues...and the rationale for that RULE cleary imposes the obligation for foul detection on the REF if there is one and on the OPPONENT if there is not.
In my mind, it is the hight of conceit for people to impose their own moral standards on other people...especially when there is no rule requiring self-called fouls.
Do you think that John McEnroe or any other pro tennis player in the history of the sport ever called a "let" on himself on a service ace???
C'mon!!! "This is Ames mister."..not a Boy Scout Jamboree!
LOL
RunoutalloverU said:
You just nailed it.
Hail Mary Shot said:if this was so, then expect a lot of fights happening in pool. I guess that must be a pretty sight for you. pretty good for pool also, ey?
You didn't address the point, you just went around it using emotional reasoning, this doesn't cut it. Oh and thank you.