how would you shoot this shot?

[iusedtoberich]

I’m not an instructor but never in a million years would I roll this shot with center top as the out ball. That is begging for a skid. Soft speed with almost full hit is the recipe for a skid. Actually not a skid, but more a hop for this hit.

To Patrick, I am quite surprised you say this is the way to play the shot. There is not a pro on the planet that would it this way. I don’t even think a straight pool pro from 1970 would play it that way.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...never in a million years would I roll this shot with center top as the out ball. That is begging for a skid.

Begging? How many skids do you get? In my experience they're so rare that choosing another hit to avoid them just raises even greater chances of some other complication, like from squirt/swerve/throw, etc.

As I said before, except for outside spin (with its built in complications), a rolling CB is no greater skid risk than other hits.

Actually not a skid, but more a hop for this hit.

A hop is a symptom of a skid - but I agree at this small cut angle the skidding part is mostly invisible (another reason not to worry about it).

pj
chgo

 

[The_JV]

wrong....

 

[Patrick Johnson]

wrong....

lol

Good of you to admit it. But don't let that deter you from posting.

pj
chgo

 

[iusedtoberich]

Begging? How many skids do you get? In my experience they're so rare that choosing another hit to avoid them just raises even greater chances of some other complication, like from squirt/swerve/throw, etc.

As I said before, except for outside spin (with its built in complications), a rolling CB is no greater skid risk than other hits.

A hop is a symptom of a skid - but I agree at this small cut angle the skidding part is mostly invisible (another reason not to worry about it).

pj
chgo

Often enough to have learned over the years which shots you should try to avoid, and this is one of the main ones that will produce a hop.

 

[Island Drive]

I’m not an instructor but never in a million years would I roll this shot with center top as the out ball. That is begging for a skid. Soft speed with almost full hit is the recipe for a skid. Actually not a skid, but more a hop for this hit.

Explain how a ball, rolling naturally with 12 o'clock cueing along a straight shot line will skid?

I might learn something here, it's why I'm interested in Your explanation.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

[a rolling CB] is one of the main ones that will produce a hop.

Well, yeah - because the CB has to be rotating forward in order to hop on a skid (because it "climbs" the OB). That doesn't mean a skid is more likely with a rolling CB, just that it's more visible when it happens.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Explain how a ball, rolling naturally with 12 o'clock cueing along a straight shot line will skid?

The same way it will throw - friction at the contact point (only more of it).

pj
chgo

 

[bbb]

OK, got it. You mean 'backspin' and not 'reverse.' Reverse is a different animal and refers to a type of side spin, or a ball that might 'reverse' off of a cushion. Anyway, in that definition I would agree that a drag draw is one type of kill shot, but keep in mind, not the only one. As I wrote before, depending on the speed and distance, a stun shot can also sometimes be a type of kill shot.

Also, keep in mind the the key to executing a successful kill shot is the use of maximum backspin. The better you are at executing maximum backspin, the softer you can hit the cb.

Thanks for the reply fran
And yes i meant backspin

 

[iusedtoberich]

Explain how a ball, rolling naturally with 12 o'clock cueing along a straight shot line will skid?

I might learn something here, it's why I'm interested in Your explanation.

It’s not a dead straight shot. Very slight angle.

 

[Island Drive]

The same way it will throw - friction at the contact point (only more of it).

pj
chgo

I wasn't talking about ball contact. I was trying to understand how a ball rolling naturally will skid (I used to be rich statement) with no spin on it. I want IUTBRich to explain it.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I wasn't talking about ball contact. I was trying to understand how a ball rolling naturally will skid (I used to be rich statement) with no spin on it.

Isn't "skid" excessive OB throw that only happens with CB/OB contact? Maybe you're talking about the CB "sliding" when hit below center, even before hitting an OB?

pj
chgo

 

[JayRack]

Rolling CB - no side spin - medium soft speed. No unnecessary complications.

pj
chgo

Plus 1.... Medium soft.

 

[JayRack]

Kill shot. Nice and easy, lots of backspin. Let the cb die.

I would never shoot it like this....

 

[Bob Jewett]

If a shot is straight in and you play with follow, there is some chance that you will get a skid. This is a skid without a cut angle, so you might want to call it something else, like a "bad contact". If that happens, the object ball will not go as far as expected and the cue ball will jump in the air and not follow forward nearly as far as expected.

Dr. Dave has a video of this happening on purpose where he selects the exactly right, fairly short separation of cue ball and object ball to get the chalk spot on the cue ball left by the tip rotated forward to the contact point.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I believe I recall a very similar shot, but maybe longer distance and the OB slightly closer to the rail (but not frozen) and Efren player it with inside and went forward 2 rails to end the cb on the end rail. It was his out shot. I think the game was 8 ball and billy I was on the mic.

 

[The_JV]

I believe I recall a very similar shot, but maybe longer distance and the OB slightly closer to the rail (but not frozen) and Efren player it with inside and went forward 2 rails to end the cb on the end rail. It was his out shot. I think the game was 8 ball and billy I was on the mic.

During game play I opt to follow with whatever siding rather than drag shots. However when things are going bad, or I just need to make a ball I tend to use low-outside. Just feels more natural to me I suppose.

The take away from Efren's approach was the stronger than rolling pace. Which would have been needed to reach the short rail. The pitfalls of "kicks" (poor transmission of energy) will be more detrimentalat with rolling pace.

 

[evergruven]

During game play I opt to follow with whatever siding rather than drag shots. However when things are going bad, or I just need to make a ball I tend to use low-outside. Just feels more natural to me I suppose.

The take away from Efren's approach was the stronger than rolling pace. Which would have been needed to reach the short rail. The pitfalls of "kicks" (poor transmission of energy) will be more detrimentalat with rolling pace.

this jibes
I played with the shot last night
was ok hitting it with top, but firm
for me, I seem to gotta feel it tho
low outside comes more natural

I also had fun hitting it with mid-left

 

[sparkle84]

We absolutely need more clearly defined definitions for certain types of shots. Maybe Dr Dave can come to the rescue with a video.
I think he already has stuff on different videos but it would be nice to have everything on one video which could be referred to
when questions arise.
There've been multiple threads about what a kill/drag shot is and the same things are brought up every time. He could shoot a shot
and say this is an example of a kill shot, also known as a drag shot or a drag draw shot, etc.
Another that there's been confusion about is force follow. I'm sure Dave could figure out a few more to throw in there.
As far as the shot being talked about here, Fran's calling it a kill shot, BBB a drag draw, I call it a drag shot. JV seems to think
it's not a kill shot because there may be some CB movement after contact, I guess. In this case it's kind of irrelevant because the
term kill is referring exclusively to CB speed. It's strictly for avoidance of roll off while at the same time maintaining pocket
speed.
Couple things. I myself would not call what we're talking about here a kill shot. Reason being, while technically correct, there
are a number of ways to kill CB speed, this shot is just one of them. I just think drag or drag/draw is a more apt description.
That aside, I would not shoot this particular shot that way. Also, IUTB rich is correct in his assertion that any good player is
very unlikely to shoot this shot with a high center ball.

 

[The_JV]

As far as the shot being talked about here, Fran's calling it a kill shot, BBB a drag draw, I call it a drag shot. JV seems to think
it's not a kill shot because there may be some CB movement after contact, I guess. In this case it's kind of irrelevant because the
term kill is referring exclusively to CB speed. It's strictly for avoidance of roll off while at the same time maintaining pocket
speed.

What I was saying was a true to form "kill shot" is meant to maximize stroke power but minimize energy transfer to the OB. For that effect to be at it's maximum, the CB must have zero rotation at the point of contact to the OB. If it's still spinning backward then it's still slowing down. If it's rolling forward, then it's regained inertia.

Yes, I agree that the term "kill" is to describe the effect on the CB.

Question out of pure interest. Assuming a straight on shot, and the OB had to travel a distance so that rolling the CB wasn't an option. If you had to have the CB travel 1" beyond point of contact with an OB. Would you use a forced follow, or attempt a "kill" shot..? Not baiting, just curious... I would force follow.