How's that 6-ball coming, Fatboy?

unknownpro

unknownpro

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I managed to get to 10 ahead last night and this morning. More importantly I didn't seem to separate my shoulder either time, so I'm going to try to do this everyday this week.

Right now I don't play negative, I just try to get 10 ahead starting from zero without going under so if I lose a bunch of games to start with it doesn't get too frustrating. This morning I dogged it on the hill and fell back to 3 and then got back to dog one more hill game before winning. Yesterday morning I got up to 8 three or four times and then came back last night and won easily.

Today I got up 2, back to zero, up 3, back to zero, up 3 again, zero again, then got 10 ahead in about 30 games (should've been about 12). So in the last stretch that's 6 balls * 20 games won / ((6*20) + 10 misses ) is 120/130, or 12/13, or 923 accustats - same efficiency as breaking even with the 12 ball ghost (except easier, of course).

On a wet table with 4" pockets and ancient cloth playing with both hands this is not bad. It's only 6 balls, but it's also only 6 more to get back to 12 ball and super high gear.

Even though I've been way out of stroke, I've done this a lot and I'm capable of playing position in ways that B and C players and even A players just dream about. So I'd like to hear how more players do at this game on tough tables. I'm not ashamed to say I've lost many times, sometimes I suck, sometimes I can't stay in line, sometimes I miscue a lot and can't draw my ball, and sometimes I beat the best players in the world at 10-ball. Like Cliff Joyner says "I play bad all the time." It's doesn't matter how bad you play sometimes, it's how well you can play for how long.

unknownpro
 
Welcome back Unknown.

Hope you get back to your old game real soon.

Jim
 
Thanks for asking,

I havent played again since that night, I went once and all 3 tables were busy and I waited 30 minutes and no one was leaving, the rest of the time my backs been hurting too much to play, I almost went one morning my back didnt hurt but everytime I play after only being awake for a couple hours I cant make a ball, by the time I was awake long enough to play my back was hurting terribly, i'm going to the neurologist in 2 hours, for some unexplainable reason all the hair on my legs is falling off. I dont have cancer, the doctors dont seem to worried, I think they have the puzzle solved.

When I play again i'll let everyone know what happened good or bad, becausse I cant play on a regular basis, I dont have high expectations, thanks again. Its nice when someone asks me a question.


its raining here so if I play today, and i most likely will, it will be a wet table,

it will be fun to compare notes, getting 10 ahead- fast is my plan, then adding a ball, i thinkk 7 balls will be easy the 8th ball will be the the tough one.

the table here is 4.5 inches at the opening and 4 3/8 at the back the rail is cut funny so when the table is wet you have to aim center pocket, the cloth is good, its 760 or some knock off that is very close to it.

i have awalys considered my self a strong B player most of the time and a weak A player in spots-when i'm playing good. But thats just a guess.
 
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Fatty,
are you in Munich again?.... if so I might be there this weekend...we could get together and shoot aorund a little.
 
smokeandapancak said:
Fatty,
are you in Munich again?.... if so I might be there this weekend...we could get together and shoot aorund a little.
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i'm in munich, let me know if you going to be here, i will be til the first. my back is bad some days i cant get out others i'm ok. it would be cool to hook up
 
until a few weeks ago i didnt know what this goast thing was, i never looked at any of those threads, i feel dumb, granted i wasnt around pool in the pool rooms or internet until a few months ago, I juat played at home some, but I like this game, its useless for people who cant run out, 3 balls or less, because its impossible to play it with less than 3 balls. But for anyone who can run 3 balls or more in rotation its the best practice game I have ever seen-for playing runout pool. and until you get to 15 balls you awalys have a game, and 15 balls aint no bargin. that one might take awhile.

thinking about it, playing 10 ahead 6 ball and winning say 20 times and then take an average of how many games were needed to beat that game the 20 times, would be an interesting number-like a average in bowling, then step it up to 7 and see the average number of games needed to beat that game, then 8, 9 etc. then go back to 6 and beat it 20 times and see how many game less it takes to beat it. that would put a number on how much you have improved, this would take along time to accomplish, but its cool. A great way to see improvement and a reason to bear down and play good all the time-similar to gambling. I wish I would have thought of this years ago,

I never wrote anything down about my practice frills, but I did make 50 straight spot shots left to right in a row no misses once, i missed at 52 or 53, I hit my goal and relaxed a little it was 4am and i set out what i wanted to do-50, i had someone spotting the ball for me-Randy. but other than that i cant remember anything with this format I just thought of, and documenting it would be a great way to improve. I would add one rule that your allowed one of the 20 sessions to not count, some dasys your just flat and cant get-off, so throw out the worst day and play 21 so there is 20, 10 ahead wins to calculate the average number of games needed to beat the G-Man
 
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Fatboy said:
until a few weeks ago i didnt know what this goast thing was, i never looked at any of those threads, i feel dumb, granted i wasnt around pool in the pool rooms or internet until a few months ago, I juat played at home some, but I like this game, its useless for people who cant run out, 3 balls or less, because its impossible to play it with less than 3 balls. But for anyone who can run 3 balls or more in rotation its the best practice game I have ever seen-for playing runout pool. and until you get to 15 balls you awalys have a game, and 15 balls aint no bargin. that one might take awhile.

thinking about it, playing 10 ahead 6 ball and winning say 20 times and then take an average of how many games were needed to beat that game the 20 times, would be an interesting number-like a average in bowling, then step it up to 7 and see the average number of games needed to beat that game, then 8, 9 etc. then go back to 6 and beat it 20 times and see how many game less it takes to beat it. that would put a number on how much you have improved, this would take along time to accomplish, but its cool. A great way to see improvement and a reason to bear down and play good all the time-similar to gambling. I wish I would have thought of this years ago,

I never wrote anything down about my practice frills, but I did make 50 straight spot shots left to right in a row no misses once, i missed at 52 or 53, I hit my goal and relaxed a little it was 4am and i set out what i wanted to do-50, i had someone spotting the ball for me-Randy. but other than that i cant remember anything with this format I just thought of, and documenting it would be a great way to improve. I would add one rule that your allowed one of the 20 sessions to not count, some dasys your just flat and cant get-off, so throw out the worst day and play 21 so there is 20, 10 ahead wins to calculate the average number of games needed to beat the G-Man
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Fifty spot shots in a row is outstanding. At a tournament in Virginia they drew names and let everybody try and break and run out for $100. Nobody did so they drew again and let them shoot a spot shot for $100. The first two guys missed before the third one made it. That was a Planet Pool tour event.

I made it to 10 ahead yesterday and today. Yesterday took a while. Couldn't get past 3 till I took a break for a couple hours and got my back straight and popped my shoulder back in place. Then it was a struggle after dogging down from 7 back to one. I don't know how many games it took. Way too many, lol! It was easier today. I'm still screwing up a lot of easy outs, but I'm making a lot of good ones too.

It doesn't really matter to me how many games it takes, if I can stay in the set without losing. The longer it takes the longer I'm playing over 856 and building up stamina and determination not to get frustrated and give up. I'll need that to move up to the next levels.

I hope you're playing better than me or you might wear out your back. By the way I do exercises from a book called "Oh my aching back" that's probably out of print, or else I wouldn't be able to keep going. I also do all kinds of stretches to pull out the kinks. Slouching back on the couch and letting your butt slide off the edge until the kink pulls out works best for me, along with stretching my right hamstring which always gets tight. That's another reason I play with both hands, to even out the bending of my back.

unknownpro
 
I didn't play the 6-ball Ghost 10-ahead, but I played 10 racks. Won 8-2, and missed two easy balls, one 6-ball and one 5-ball. But I didn't get a ball on the break once!!! I tried many different ways to break, but none of them worked for me...

I usually play the 9-ball Ghost 10 racks, and the score is almost always 3-7, 4-6, but sometimes I manage to get 5-5 or 6-4, and once I won 7-3.

Playing the Ghost is a great way to get better!
 
Roy Steffensen said:
I didn't play the 6-ball Ghost 10-ahead, but I played 10 racks. Won 8-2, and missed two easy balls, one 6-ball and one 5-ball. But I didn't get a ball on the break once!!! I tried many different ways to break, but none of them worked for me...

I usually play the 9-ball Ghost 10 racks, and the score is almost always 3-7, 4-6, but sometimes I manage to get 5-5 or 6-4, and once I won 7-3.

Playing the Ghost is a great way to get better!
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There is no good way to break in 6-ball, that I know of anyway. You will seldom make a ball on the break, wheras in 9-ball with an actual frozen rack you should be disappointed at not making 3 balls. That's another reason I'm playing 6-ball right now (besides that I suck) - no worry about getting a good rack, so I pay no attention to it. But in 9-ball and 10-ball and up the rack is more critical than your actual play, imo.

Seven ball is tough too if you put the last ball dead behind the middle. Or you can do the circle like on tv which is a joke, because you'll make a ton of balls.

unknownpro
 
Neil said:
I agree. It gives the same results as playing someone. Minus the defense of course.

This afternoon I got to practice a little so I played the 9-ball ghost. Played 20 games and won 12. Felt like it should have been a little better. But 4 of the racks had balls tied up. Two of those I just couldn't find a way to break them out, and the other two I hit the ball for a break-out and got re-hooked once, and the other one I just had no makeable shot. Four of the racks at the beginning I kept getting out of line and commiting suicide. Those four I should have been out. Have to start practicing more I guess.
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That's great shooting anyway. Over 930 accut-stats. I keep mentioning this because it gives a good reference to how professionals are playing in tournaments. You can look up the stats on the videos, 900 or better is exellent for a match. The longer you stay that high the more impressive it becomes.

The amazing thing about the Phillipinos is how consistently they break out balls and actually have a decent shot afterward. Four racks out of twenty might be about average to have balls tied up in 9-ball. When they tie-up after the break you should look at the 9-ball to see where it went. When it moves after the break without being hit it is always a bad rack, which leads to more tie-ups.

When playing 11-ball I figured I had to be able to make at least one combo or breakout every game, even with a frozen rack. Twelve ball is easier with a good rack, imo, because you'll make a lot of balls and have fewer tie-ups.

unknownpro
 
Neil said:
How do you figure this? Is there an easy way to do it?
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Divide the number of balls made by the number of balls made plus the number of balls missed. For ghost play I multiply games won by the number of balls in the rack to get the number of makes, and use the number of games lost for the misses. It's an approximation. You'll make some balls on the break, but you'll make some balls in the games you lose too. I figure that will always more than even out.

So to break even at ghost games the accu-stats numbers come out to...

6-ball - 856
7-ball - 875
8-ball - 888
9-ball - 900
10-ball - 909
11-ball - 916
12-ball - 923
13-ball - 929
14-ball - 933
15-ball - 938

Obviously it's much easier to shoot a high percentage at 6-ball than at 15 ball because you don't have so many balls to play around. But you can't run out without pocketing all the balls in any case, and they are not necessarily any closer to the pockets regardless of which game you are playing. So if you don't play good position you will have tough shots anyway.

unknownpro
 
unknownpro said:
That's great shooting anyway. Over 930 accut-stats. I keep mentioning this because it gives a good reference to how professionals are playing in tournaments. You can look up the stats on the videos, 900 or better is exellent for a match. The longer you stay that high the more impressive it becomes.

unknownpro
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Not to rain on anybody's parade but before you go comparing yourself to the pro's accustats percentage on tapes/DVDs where they have been figured, it seems to me that you should be calculating your % using the same scoring system. I doubt that you are.

For example... in Accu-stats, if the player misses a shot easier than a spot shot, then that miss counts as two errors... not one... a big difference... especially in a race to 10 in 6-ball. There are other differences as well.

In one of our regional tournaments, for my own benefit, I scored several matches in a row... it was quite interesting. FWIW, a 0.900 match is huge!!!

Perhaps in a day or so I'll post what I measured for those matches.
 
Neil said:
Break percentages for the pros are only about 30%.
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Neil... when Phil Capelle did his video tape research for his book Play Your Best Pool, the break 'n run percentage for the pros was ~30%... so I'd say that the pros' % for making a ball on the break would be significantly higher... perhaps >50%... just a guess.
 
cigardave said:
Not to rain on anybody's parade but before you go comparing yourself to the pro's accustats percentage on tapes/DVDs where they have been figured, it seems to me that you should be calculating your % using the same scoring system. I doubt that you are.

For example... in Accu-stats, if the player misses a shot easier than a spot shot, then that miss counts as two errors... not one... a big difference... especially in a race to 10 in 6-ball. There are other differences as well.

In one of our regional tournaments, for my own benefit, I scored several matches in a row... it was quite interesting. FWIW, a 0.900 match is huge!!!

Perhaps in a day or so I'll post what I measured for those matches.
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Why would it count for 2 errors? I have wondered why some of the stats were not higher. I know from experience that if you miss more than one or two balls a match you were pushing your luck to the limit. But scoring the simple way I described you can look at many videos and see top players playing well below 900 late in tournaments after they are warmed up and acclimated to easy playing tables.

Perhaps you can post the real accu-stats method? If the shot is judged harder than a spot shot then does it only count for 1 error? To me all shots are the same, you either go for them or you don't, so they're all 50/50. In a real match, getting position on the next ball is often more important, imo, than making the ball you are playing at the time - so the difficulty of pocketing the shot means nothing unless you factor in the difficulty of position for the next ball. There is no safe option playing the ghost so you are often playing balls in a way that you wouldn't in a real match.

Thanks for your input, I don't mind the rain. I just think that with so many really good players on this forum, they can be discouraging to lesser players unintentionally by saying that certain levels should be automatic for B and C players.

Table conditions vary greatly. Pro tournaments almost always are played on brand new cloth that results in a soft stroke competition, where whoever makes the fewest mistakes wins - while many ordinary players play on worn out dirty wet cloth that requires a much better stroke to control the cueball at any distance, and there will be many, many more errors. Thus my thread about table difficulty ratings, because I believe the condition of the rail and bed cloth is at least as important if not more than size and angle of the pockets to the degree of proficiency that should be expected at the table. Balls won't slide in the pockets if they hit the rail and bounce completely wide of the pocket.

I am trying to encourage others, as I do myself, to realize the significance of what some may put down as minor accomplishments in their pool practice. Playing the Ghost can be a real grind which many people do not appreciate unless they have repeatedly beat their heads against that wall. Even beating the 6-ball ghost is an accomplishment on a really tough playing table.

I guess I should quit using the term "Accu-Stats" ratings since what I have described are actually pocketing percentages. And maybe Pat Flemming should quit filming and selling matches involving players that are totally uncompensated for the time and money spent getting to a level that people will pay to watch.

unknownpro
 
> This is taken from the .pdf that explains the entire scoring system.


How To Compute The Total Performance Average (TPA)
To compute the Total Performance Average, you need to know how to calculate Errors made
by each player. To do this you must know how to define each type of error.

Definitions Of The Five Possible Errors

1. MISS ERROR: A player can “see” the lowest ball on the table, and his primary concern is to pocket a ball, but he fails to do so. NOTE: A MISS THAT IS “EASIER THAN A SPOT SHOT” COUNTS AS TWO ERRORS.

2. BREAK ERROR: A player breaks, and the cue ball either goes into a pocket or off of the table.


3. KICK ERROR: A player cannot “see” the lowest ball on the table and is forced to shoot a rail first, masse’, or jump shot, and fails to make a good hit.

4. SAFETY ERROR: A player plays a safety and his opponent pockets a ball during his next turn at the table OR misses a shot that is easier than a spot shot. If, immediately after a safety, the opponent kicks the first ball in, no safety error will be charged.

5. POSITION ERROR: a. A player scratches in the pocket or off the table, excluding kicks and break shots.

b. A player pockets at least one ball (not counting those on the
break), but fails to win the game (rack). The exceptions to this is when one of the small
notations (‘n’ or ‘x’) are used.

The notations n or x referred to here work as follows. A capital M is used to notate a miss,a small n behind it refers to a miss that happened for no apparent reason. An x notates a preplanned safety,such as a layout where you have to run a few or several balls to get in the right spot to execute the safe.

I'd also like to note that under this system,it is also a penalty of 2 mistakes for missing a shot harder than a spot shot,if you played position on the shot you missed,unless you were deemed to be unable to have played position any differently. An example of this is having to shoot a shot similar to a spot shot,because you were left dead straight in on the end rail by your opponent,and no easier shot was available. Tommy D.
 
cigardave said:
Neil... when Phil Capelle did his video tape research for his book Play Your Best Pool, the break 'n run percentage for the pros was ~30%... so I'd say that the pros' % for making a ball on the break would be significantly higher... perhaps >50%... just a guess.
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On the recent Eurotours you could bet on bwin on just that, will a ball fall on the next (9-ball) break on a tapped table. They paid something like 8-1, so a ball on the break in that tournament was more like 90%.

gr. Dave
 
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