"Hustling" connotation unjustly hurts pool

The Chinchilla

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think the word hustler carries with it very unfair connotations. What words do you think about when you hear the word hustler? "Scammer" has been mentioned, "cheater," "low-life," "scum-bag"... the list could go on right? Feel free to mention some yourself.

Yet, are these fair words to describe a person who purposefully plays at a level less than his ability while at a pool table? I don't think so, in fact, I think they are very unfair and unjust associations.

What is the purpose of pool? People do have a great time while playing pool, and we all know how beneficial that is. But I want to put aside the "social player" aspect here, and talk about only one sect of pool.

What is the purpose of pool within the sect I want to discuss? TO WIN. That's it. So, let's try to keep this thread on that topic, people who are brought to pool and motivated by trying to be the best player they can be by winning as much as possible. This is not farfetched right? The point of any game is really to win.

Since I feel we have all been unjustly biased with the "scammer" and "cheater" associations mentioned previously, I think it is essential to draw analogies. We can choose them from any walk of life....

What does it take to "win" in the US as a businessman? It takes an extremely competitive spirit to win and be successful, if you're not outdoing the next guy, you are losing money. Every day, successful businessmen deceive people in very tactical, yet what I’d call ethical ways. Examples: "we don't have many of these units left" or "the price on these units is going up in 2 days" or maybe during a merger one side making the other side feel they are stable, calm and collected, when they are not. These are simple examples, and maybe you can think of some of your own, but the point is pretty much our whole system revolves around the fact that you need to deceive people at times in order to be successful.

One more example.... a strong chess player that has a tendency to be at his best when he lulls his opponent into thinking he is a weaker player. So the chess player will make his opponent think he doesn't know his plan by purposefully making "week moves", but he actually does, and uses this against him to plan his offensive moves and win the game.

If you have been reading between the lines, maybe you are already asking yourselves.... is this chess player a "scammer" and "cheater"? Is the businessman a "low-life" or a "scum-bag"?? I think we can all agree that they are not. So why are pool players labeled as such for doing the exact same types of things???

Pool is about winning and being successful too. If a good player walks into a town, and plays the first guy he sees $20 a rack, and makes the most amazing runout anybody has ever seen the first game, well, that is perfectly within his right, but he has really just lost. He's like the businessman who didn't make it because he was too fair and truthful. The real point here is, to be successful, there is almost always a certain amount of deception. Why in the world do we label pool players "scammers" when many other people out there are doing the same thing, yet they are admired and called "successful"?

Further, what is "hustling" anyway? Who is going to judge whether or not somebody is "hustling"? Is there some unwritten law in pool where one must play 100% up to his skill level all the time, or he's a hustler? Where do you draw the line? What if a player's son got in a car accident a month before... he may be playing bad, but is it your right to judge him and label him a “cheat” because he's off that day?

The truth is, we really don't have the right to judge other people's games like this. They have reached a certain level, and they are allowed to play as high or as low as they want. We should not judge them, because we don't know what is going on in their heads. Who is going to decide if they are "hustling" or not? You? If you say, "yes, me, I will judge them"... well then, you are part of the problem, not the solution. You aren't righteous for thinking this. You are actually guilty of promoting unjust stereotypes in pool. So, judge all you want, but realize you are part of the problem. You are like the teenage girl who looks at the other girls and tells herself how ugly they all are. That is really who you are. You are no better than them, in fact, you are acting below them by judging. You should not be proud of this, as perpetuating these stereotypes is bad for pool. So you are part of the problem!

Doesn't it make sense? We all sit around and wonder why pool won’t go anywhere, it makes perfect sense to me that perhaps we are all part of the problem without even knowing it!! This could be why the question of "what's the problem with pool" is so stupefying to us.

I think the term hustler, along with the connotations it carries, simply came from a time, perhaps during the depression, where it really meant being an actual bad person, ie, a thief or a person who may cause physical harm in order to gain something. These terms and the connotations are still there, yet not justly so. I really feel we all need to realize that a player has the right to play at whatever level he sees fit at any given moment, and we should not label him in our heads unless he does exhibit actual nefarious behavior.

Thanks for listening.
 
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gunzby

My light saber is LD
Silver Member
It only hurts pool because it hasn't been filmed right ;)

You go and film something like the DCC like they film the WSOP and you have media gold. After all the WSOP is more or less full of card sharks, or hustlers if you will.

I guarantee if they would have filmed Johnston City in it's entirety and did it like the WSOP it would have captivated the heck out of people.
 

Krypto

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Gambling

Well, we have certainly discussed this topic to death in the past here and on other billiard forums, but I will still jump in.

Gambling is not going to go away. I didn't used to like this part of pool either, but over time, I have come to realize that this game/sport is what it is. There is some tournament money out there for the players, but a lot of guys do very well just playing money games (gambling). I think most of them eventually realize that they can't make a life of it, so they will find another career eventually, as a side hobby (smile).

When one does accept the game for what it is and where it is, the gambling aspect can really be enjoyed. It adds a whole new level of complexity and flavor to a match up. The contest is now not only about the pool skill of individual players, but it is also about their skill at getting the right end of a handicap. This takes negotiation and the maturity to know your own limitations. Often times, the player's stamina and ability to concentrate after many long hours of competetive play will also become an interesting factor.

I find a gambling match very entertaining, and I believe the success of TAR indicates that a lot of pool enthusiasts share that opinion.

Hey, just make sure you are not the one getting hustled, and have fun. that is what this game is all about anyway.

By the way, you write really well. Good to see you on the board.

R.C. (Kryptowrite)

http://kryptoart.com/
http://kryptowrite.hubpages.com/
 

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
There is nothing unjust about the way hustlers are viewed. It's a con-job the way it's laid down and your better players don't do it much these days. The internet and cell phone killed the ability to hustle which is one of the reasons that road players can't make it anymore...

I have heard enough stories from Danny D and others about double crosses... dumps... and laying in the weeds that I wouldn't trust many of the old school players enough to back them even if I had money I was mad at.......

You think Vegas has forgotten The Challenge of Champions... The first time they make book on a pro tourney they got dumped..... Much of the guard from the 80s and 90s made the bed that pro pool has to lay in today... Or should I say dug the grave that it is lying in.....

Danny said back in the old days you didn't need to hustle because no one knew you and hardly anyone you crossed on the road could really shoot straight... You walked in asked for a game... Took a cheap one so you didn't break the guy too fast and then worked the rail... The rail would make some calls if you were winning and hopefully they had more than 1 player they could call....

That's a world away from hustling where you play under your speed so you can keep a fish on the line until you bleed him out.... There's a reason Eddie got his thumbs broke and Jim ended up looking like a jigsaw puzzle with a couple of pieces missing....
 

TurdFerguson

Registered
Pool players owe Paul Newman a great debt of gratitude.

However, in the same breath, the movies were called "The Hustler" and "The Color of Money", which was about hustling pool.

To hustle is to move or act rapidly and with energy, perhaps aggressively.

From major motion picture and star....to our pool scene.

If you are dumb enough to get hustled, you deserve to lose your money.
 

Oregonmeds

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
"If you have been reading between the lines, maybe you are already asking yourselves.... is this chess player a "scammer" and "cheater"? Is the businessman a "low-life" or a "scum-bag"?? I think we can all agree that they are not."

No, we can't agree. Recent events and peoples reaction to them show quite the opposite, many people have less and less patience and respect for lawyers, politicians, bankers, businessmen who cheat the system or cheat others. Less and less acceptance for pulling down giant bonuses as ceo's of major corporations while cutting jobs and pay and loosing profitability or market share, etc etc etc.

If the pro chess player can't win showing his game and just being better, and if the pool player can't with without hiding his skill until it's too late, then they're not as good as they think or need to be and people respect that less and less.

I have absolutely zero respect for a hustler, but I have the utmost respect for someone who straight up honestly kicks ass at the game. The hustling part removes all respect a man should receive who can actually play the game on that level. It's not much different from theft to pretend to be less and play lower than your skill in order to deceive and cheat others.
 
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The Chinchilla

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
"If you have been reading between the lines, maybe you are already asking yourselves.... is this chess player a "scammer" and "cheater"? Is the businessman a "low-life" or a "scum-bag"?? I think we can all agree that they are not."

No, we can't agree. Recent events and peoples reaction to them show quite the opposite, many people have less and less patience and respect for lawyers, politicians, bankers, businessmen who cheat the system or cheat others. Less and less acceptance for pulling down giant bonuses as ceo's of major corporations while cutting jobs and pay and loosing profitability or market share, etc etc etc.

If the pro chess player can't win showing his game and just being better, and if the pool player can't with without hiding his skill until it's too late, then they're not as good as they think or need to be and people respect that less and less.

I have absolutely zero respect for a hustler, but I have the utmost respect for someone who straight up honestly kicks ass at the game. The hustling part removes all respect a man should receive who can actually play the game on that level. It's not much different from theft to pretend to be less and play lower than your skill in order to deceive and cheat others.

I wish I could respond to all, first, thanks for the replies.

I'd like to keep my response here simple to not get too convoluted....

Oregonmeds, do you think the example I mentioned about the chess player "laying down" on his skill level to position himself to win a match or tournament warrants the term "cheater"? If so, please explain why and what you think the differences are. If not, can you see they are pretty much the same thing; the chess player is deceiving his opponent. There has just been some ingrained biases there in pool that I feel are unwarranted. Best.
 
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justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
It seems to me that the hustle is more important than the game. The act of getting the game, and getting over on someone is the real victory to these folks, not actually playing better than their opponent. Pulling off the scam is more important than playing well. "Look at the score I just made! I just broke that guy!" etc, etc, etc

I have no problem with people gambling. I gamble a little occasionally, though not at pool (because I'm awful) other than maybe for a beer. It's the dishonesty in setting up a game that I don't like.
 

9BallPaul

Banned
I think the word hustler carries with it very unfair connotations. What words do you think about when you hear the word hustler? "Scammer" has been mentioned, "cheater," "low-life," "scum-bag"... the list could go on right? Feel free to mention some yourself.

Yet, are these fair adjectives to describe a person who purposefully plays at a level less than his ability while at a pool table? I don't think so, in fact, I think they are very unfair and unjust associations.

What is the purpose of pool? People do have a great time while playing pool, and we all know how beneficial that is. But I want to put aside the "social player" aspect here, and talk about only one sect of pool.

What is the purpose of pool within the sect I want to discuss? TO WIN. That's it. So, let's try to keep this thread on that topic, people who are brought to pool and motivated by trying to be the best player they can be by winning as much as possible. This is not farfetched right? The point of any game is really to win.

Since I feel we have all been unjustly biased with the "scammer" and "cheater" associations mentioned previously, I think it is essential to draw analogies. We can choose them from any walk of life....

What does it take to "win" in the US as a businessman? It takes an extremely competitive spirit to win and be successful, if you're not outdoing the next guy, you are losing money. Every day, successful businessmen deceive people in very tactical, yet what I’d call ethical ways. Examples: "we don't have many of these units left" or "the price on these units is going up in 2 days" or maybe during a merger one side making the other side feel they are stable, calm and collected, when they are not. These are simple examples, and maybe you can think of some of your own, but the point is pretty much our whole system revolves around the fact that you need to deceive people at times in order to be successful.

One more example.... a strong chess player that has a tendency to be at his best when he lulls his opponent into thinking he is a weaker player. So the chess player will make his opponent think he doesn't know his plan by purposefully making "week moves", but he actually does, and uses this against him to plan his offensive moves and win the game.

If you have been reading between the lines, maybe you are already asking yourselves.... is this chess player a "scammer" and "cheater"? Is the businessman a "low-life" or a "scum-bag"?? I think we can all agree that they are not. So why are pool players labeled as such for doing the exact same types of things???

Pool is about winning and being successful too. If a good player walks into a town, and plays the first guy he sees $20 a rack, and makes the most amazing runout anybody has ever seen the first game, well, that is perfectly within his right, but he has really just lost. He's like the businessman who didn't make it because he was too fair and truthful. The real point here is, to be successful, there is almost always a certain amount of deception. Why in the world do we label pool players "scammers" when many other people out there are doing the same thing, yet they are admired and called "successful"?

Further, what is "hustling" anyway? Who is going to judge whether or not somebody is "hustling"? Is there some unwritten law in pool where one must play 100% up to his skill level all the time, or he's a hustler? Where do you draw the line? What if a player's son got in a car accident a month before... he may be playing bad, but is it your right to judge him and label him a “cheat” because he's off that day?

The truth is, we really don't have the right to judge other people's games like this. They have reached a certain level, and they are allowed to play as high or as low as they want. We should not judge them, because we don't know what is going on in their heads. Who is going to decide if they are "hustling" or not? You? If you say, "yes, me, I will judge them"... well then, you are part of the problem, not the solution. You aren't righteous for thinking this. You are actually guilty of promoting unjust stereotypes in pool. So, judge all you want, but realize you are part of the problem. You are like the teenage girl who looks at the other girls and tells herself how ugly they all are. That is really who you are. You are no better than them, in fact, you are acting below them by judging. You should not be proud of this, as perpetuating these stereotypes is bad for pool. So you are part of the problem!

Doesn't it make sense? We all sit around and wonder why pool won’t go anywhere, it makes perfect sense to me that perhaps we are all part of the problem without even knowing it!! This could be why the question of "what's the problem with pool" is so stupefying to us.

I think the term hustler, along with the connotations it carries, simply came from a time, perhaps during the depression, where it really meant being an actual bad person, ie, a thief or a person who may cause physical harm in order to gain something. These terms and the connotations are still there, yet not justly so. I really feel we all need to realize that a player has the right to play at whatever level he sees fit at any given moment, and we should not label him in our heads unless he does exhibit actual efarious behavior.

Thanks for listening.

First of all, "Hustler" is a noun, not an adjective. Same goes for the others you listed.

Seems like Paul Newman won some fans by portraying a hustler in a certain movie. As I recall, people flocked to the theaters to see it. And lo and behold, pool boomed as it hadn't in decades.

Your word study seems to have some holes in it, just sayin'.
 

Maniac

2manyQ's
Silver Member
Showing someone that your game is less than it actually is for the purpose of taking someones money is a "con" game, pure and simple. It has been going on for years. If you can look me in the eyes and with a straight face tell me that this is NOT a scam, then I don't know what to tell you. It's a ruse, a scam, a "con". No other way to describe it.

That said, if no money was involved, then I could see things differently.

The love of money (especially somebody elses) does strange things to people.

OTOH, if the "scamee", or hustled one didn't try to win some money by taking from a player he "thought" played worse than himself, he wouldn't have gotten hustled himself.

Eventually, one way or another, hustlers/hustlees get what they have coming to them.

Just my opinion.

Maniac (may "donate", but never hustled)
 

gsm1sw

Banger by birth
Gold Member
Silver Member
I think the word hustler carries with it very unfair connotations. What words do you think about when you hear the word hustler? "Scammer" has been mentioned, "cheater," "low-life," "scum-bag"... the list could go on right? Feel free to mention some yourself.

Yet, are these fair adjectives to describe a person who purposefully plays at a level less than his ability while at a pool table? I don't think so, in fact, I think they are very unfair and unjust associations.

What is the purpose of pool? People do have a great time while playing pool, and we all know how beneficial that is. But I want to put aside the "social player" aspect here, and talk about only one sect of pool.

What is the purpose of pool within the sect I want to discuss? TO WIN. That's it. So, let's try to keep this thread on that topic, people who are brought to pool and motivated by trying to be the best player they can be by winning as much as possible. This is not farfetched right? The point of any game is really to win. If the object was to win then they would go into a pool hall and announce that they are the best in the room and will take on all challengers. That way there is no question of what they want (to win)

Since I feel we have all been unjustly biased with the "scammer" and "cheater" associations mentioned previously, I think it is essential to draw analogies. We can choose them from any walk of life....

What does it take to "win" in the US as a businessman? It takes an extremely competitive spirit to win and be successful, if you're not outdoing the next guy, you are losing money. Every day, successful businessmen deceive people in very tactical, yet what I’d call ethical ways. Examples: "we don't have many of these units left" or "the price on these units is going up in 2 days" or maybe during a merger one side making the other side feel they are stable, calm and collected, when they are not. These are simple examples, and maybe you can think of some of your own, but the point is pretty much our whole system revolves around the fact that you need to deceive people at times in order to be successful.

One more example.... a strong chess player that has a tendency to be at his best when he lulls his opponent into thinking he is a weaker player. So the chess player will make his opponent think he doesn't know his plan by purposefully making "week moves", but he actually does, and uses this against him to plan his offensive moves and win the game.

another example, as mentioned earlier, a used car salesman. Some lie all the time, some don't but look at their reputation. Hustlers are on the same footing as used car salesmen.

If you have been reading between the lines, maybe you are already asking yourselves.... is this chess player a "scammer" and "cheater"? Is the businessman a "low-life" or a "scum-bag"?? I think we can all agree that they are not. So why are pool players labeled as such for doing the exact same types of things???

Pool is about winning and being successful too. If a good player walks into a town, and plays the first guy he sees $20 a rack, and makes the most amazing runout anybody has ever seen the first game, well, that is perfectly within his right, but he has really just lost. He's like the businessman who didn't make it because he was too fair and truthful. The real point here is, to be successful, there is almost always a certain amount of deception. Why in the world do we label pool players "scammers" when many other people out there are doing the same thing, yet they are admired and called "successful"?

How many examples can you come up with were the players are doing the job with their OWN money? If either chess player loses they just do not get more money. Their bankroll does not go down after every match they lose.

Further, what is "hustling" anyway? Who is going to judge whether or not somebody is "hustling"? Is there some unwritten law in pool where one must play 100% up to his skill level all the time, or he's a hustler? Where do you draw the line? What if a player's son got in a car accident a month before... he may be playing bad, but is it your right to judge him and label him a “cheat” because he's off that day?

The truth is, we really don't have the right to judge other people's games like this. They have reached a certain level, and they are allowed to play as high or as low as they want. We should not judge them, because we don't know what is going on in their heads. Who is going to decide if they are "hustling" or not? You? If you say, "yes, me, I will judge them"... well then, you are part of the problem, not the solution. You aren't righteous for thinking this. You are actually guilty of promoting unjust stereotypes in pool. So, judge all you want, but realize you are part of the problem. You are like the teenage girl who looks at the other girls and tells herself how ugly they all are. That is really who you are. You are no better than them, in fact, you are acting below them by judging. You should not be proud of this, as perpetuating these stereotypes is bad for pool. So you are part of the problem!

Doesn't it make sense? We all sit around and wonder why pool won’t go anywhere, it makes perfect sense to me that perhaps we are all part of the problem without even knowing it!! This could be why the question of "what's the problem with pool" is so stupefying to us.

I think the term hustler, along with the connotations it carries, simply came from a time, perhaps during the depression, where it really meant being an actual bad person, ie, a thief or a person who may cause physical harm in order to gain something. These terms and the connotations are still there, yet not justly so. I really feel we all need to realize that a player has the right to play at whatever level he sees fit at any given moment, and we should not label him in our heads unless he does exhibit actual nefarious behavior.

Thanks for listening.

Hustling is just another form of deception. Why else are there terms like "looking for a fish"? As I said above, if you're a gambler, walk into the room and proudly announce that you are the best and defy anyone to prove otherwise. To again challenge what you stated "What is the purpose of pool within the sect I want to discuss? TO WIN. That's it. So, let's try to keep this thread on that topic, people who are brought to pool and motivated by trying to be the best player they can be by winning as much as possible" If they are trying to win and be the best PLAYER, then there should be no problem with that announcement. If they are just trying to collect money, then they are hustling. Once more, please show some examples were the loser has a smaller bankroll after losing each set.
 

Pushout

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Pool players owe Paul Newman a great debt of gratitude.

However, in the same breath, the movies were called "The Hustler" and "The Color of Money", which was about hustling pool.

To hustle is to move or act rapidly and with energy, perhaps aggressively.

From major motion picture and star....to our pool scene.

If you are dumb enough to get hustled, you deserve to lose your money.

See post #10. If you've never been hustled you probably haven't been around pool long enough to know, one way or another.
 

vagabond

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think the word hustler carries with it very unfair connotations.



Thanks for listening.


It is here to stay and not going away!
Hustlers are humble people and they don`t want to be a show off.
The problem is not the hustler, the problem is the player with inflated self worth ( over estimates his self worth )!!!:cool:
 

vagabond

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think the word hustler carries with it very unfair connotations.



Thanks for listening.


Hustling is here to stay and not going away!
Hustlers are humble people and they don`t want to be a show off.
The problem is not the hustler, the problem is the player with inflated self worth ( over estimates his self worth )!!!:cool:
 

macguy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is not in response to any one poster just a comment. When playing pool with an unknown opponent there is no expectation of any fiduciary relationship, I assume they are trying to con me if they can. After all the intention of the "Hustle" is not to so much cheat the other player but to lull them into a sense of well being. In fact in many cases make them feel they are in fact the one taking advantage.

There are unknown factors on both sides. Someone in another post used the term "Fish". They imply you are taking advantage of a helpless sucker but this in rarely the case. As said many years ago, "You can't cheat an honest man". Well of course you can, many people get cheated by car dealers and roofers etc. but in a gambling situation there are no innocent parties. The winner will be the better player and how that conclusion is arrived at is what the play of the game is for.

Evaluating your opponent is as important as your own play as both players jockey for advantage. In the case of world beaters they pretty much know they will win no matter who happens to be the opponent and many time these local champions who end up on the losing end, at the start thought they were the hustlers. I call these players "Ultra Hustlers".

When they go in a town they attract the local hustlers and it doesn't take long. Pretty much all you have to do is get a table by yourself and they will show up. It can be funny sometimes, even though you are the stranger and the local guy should have the fans it does not take long to get the feeling there is some kind of mass pleasure in the room watching him take a beating. These local hustlers can be pretty petty characters and not very popular in their areas.

Long story short, I expect my lawyer and accountant to be on the up and up with me, in fact it would be illegal if they are not. But if I go in a pool room "To Gamble", and have expectations that everything everyone says or does is the truth and in my best interest, I better find another use for my time because I won't fair very well.
 
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Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
Life is all about NOT getting too beat up financially by the next guy in any business, look at what kind of impact the banks have had on those they hustled and conned in our housing crunch. I think banks have a worse rep. now than pool players ever had.
 

macguy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Life is all about NOT getting too beat up financially by the next guy in any business, look at what kind of impact the banks have had on those they hustled and conned in our housing crunch. I think banks have a worse rep. now than pool players ever had.

The difference is, there is an expectation of honesty. It is a violation of ones trust, maybe the worst form of crime there is.
When a guy points a gun at me in a alley, there is no ambiguity.
 
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JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
Life is all about NOT getting too beat up financially by the next guy in any business, look at what kind of impact the banks have had on those they hustled and conned in our housing crunch. I think banks have a worse rep. now than pool players ever had.

And please let's no get started on the real hucksters, the politicians who have fleeced America and filled their own pockets at the expense of our once great nation and at the expense of the generations to come.
 
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