I devulged TOI

[His Boy Elroy]

Is this Luther Lassiter...no, it can't be you mentioned "inside english" - you must not have seen the DVD!!! LoL

TOI is NOT inside english. If you spin the cue ball with "inside english" you're going to have a very frustrating pool career indeed.

'The TOI Game is the Teacher'

First of all, I'd like to alert all posters that my mechanic will be arriving later this very afternoon to set up my new, used, Gold Crown IV. If any of you are regulars at the 14.1 forum, I'll now finally have the opportunity to take up this game seriously. I'll probably be joining the discussion soon. Those so inclined should put me on their "ignore" list now.

Anyhow, C.J: One year ago I discovered AZ. I was immediately drawn to your T.O.I explanations because it sounded to me to be very similiarly to something I'd been doing for years. I'd read a little about deflection, but I somehow came to believe that it didn't exist in my stroke. I thought I was swerving the ball in with English. Only after viewing your DVD's did I really learn about deflection and comprehend it's role in T.O.I.

So 3andstop is describing a guy whose putting in a hundred balls in a row and he's a attributing part of his success to his employing "a touch of English" on shots. Well; if he's putting a touch of English on the ball, he's also putting a touch of deflection on the ball and if he's putting in a hundred balls in a row, I don't think his pool career is frustrating him.

He's probably like I used to be. Maybe he doesn't know what deflection is, and although he's consciously thinking his use of English is getting the job done for him, he subconsciously knows that deflection is the root cause of his success. In short - he's using T.O.I.

So why the concerted effort to keep the word "English" at arms length when discussing T.O.I. Why don't you just say, "Whenever a ball Is hit off center two things result: English is applied to the ball and deflection is applied to the ball. You may think you're making all those balls because of English, but actually, you're making them because of deflection. That's why when using T.O.I. the focus and emphasis should be on deflection, and not on English. That's not to say that English is not a valuable tool. At times we need to use it in order to make position after contact with the object ball. If you buy my DVD, I'll demonstrate the effects of deflection and explain why it should be in the forefront of the mindset of every player who wants to improve their shotmaking through the T.O.I. method. I'll also demonstrate when, where and how English should be applied to the cue ball when circumstances call for it.

There! You won't confuse a few players who are open to T.O.I. like I used to be but who might lack knowledge of pool's basic physics, you'll introduce them to your otherwise fabulous writings and videos on the subject...and everyone will live happily ever after.

 

[CJ Wiley]

the game may be the teacher, but the beauty can be the test.

CJ,
No offense, but if I have the choice between a fit bird and a fit bloke photo, just send me a special-signed photo of Mary Avina. :wink:

JoeyA[/QUOTE]

I can't say that I blame you, the game may be the teacher, but the beauty can be the test.

Aloha.....or as they say in New Orleans "sporrrrrrtttttyyyy boy"

 

[CJ Wiley]

They've been using the terms "overspin/underspin" in tennis for many, many years

True, but it still makes more sense than over or under

You're saying "overspin," and "underspin" make no sense? Professionals also say "topspin," and "backspin" if that makes you feel more sensible.

Experts have been using the terms "overspin/underspin" in tennis for many, many years, and not one person's complained about it "not making sense"......'The Common Sense is the Teacher'

 

[3andstop]

Sounds to me like the counterman needs royalties.

LOL he was at best 65 in 1968, I'd guess more like 70

He's gone, no known family, but man CJs got all the moves. Did he put you up to this? Ducking 4 ... I mean 5 bucks, geez.

 

[His Boy Elroy]

You're saying "overspin," and "underspin" make no sense? Professionals also say "topspin," and "backspin" if that makes you feel more sensible.

Experts have been using the terms "overspin/underspin" in tennis for many, many years, and not one person's complained about it "not making sense"......'The Common Sense is the Teacher'

I found it interesting when you mentioned in one of your posts that you were at one time a very serious tennis player. I played occasionally as a kid, but it wasn't until 7 or 8 years ago really took it up. I play about 40 times during the 6 months that the weather allows for it in Chicago.

I find it exactly - and I mean EXACTLY identical to pool in one respect. There's a scene in the movie, "The Hustler" in which Eddy Felson tells his girlfriend that although his pool cue is a piece of wood, it has nerves. Not only does it have nerves, but it feels like it's an extension of his arm. That's what it feels like to me when I play pool, and I didn't start becoming any good until it started feeling like that.

At least for me, It's the exact situation in tennis. Nothing was progressing in my ball striking until the racket began to develop nerves and it began to feel like an extension of my arm. I stiil have a whole lot of progressing to go before I can call myself "good," and I'm sure those who are good and better than good have a racket with more finely developed nerves, it's just that my ball striking didn't progress at all until this occured

 

[BeiberLvr]

You're saying "overspin," and "underspin" make no sense? Professionals also say "topspin," and "backspin" if that makes you feel more sensible.

Experts have been using the terms "overspin/underspin" in tennis for many, many years, and not one person's complained about it "not making sense"......'The Common Sense is the Teacher'

Top/forward and bottom/back makes more sense than over or under.

To overspin the ball sounds more like putting extreme spin, and underspin the ball sounds like putting very little spin.

 

[sfleinen]

Top/forward and bottom/back makes more sense than over or under.

To overspin the ball sounds more like putting extreme spin, and underspin the ball sounds like putting very little spin.

And, "underspin" and "overspin" could be terms related to marketing efforts, as well. For example, in this regard, we all know TOI has had "overspin" applied, while just plain honest-to-goodness practice (without seeking magic elixirs) has had "underspin" applied.


-Sean

 

[JoeyA]

And, "underspin" and "overspin" could be terms related to marketing efforts, as well. For example, in this regard, we all know TOI has had "overspin" applied, while just plain honest-to-goodness practice (without seeking magic elixirs) has had "underspin" applied.


-Sean

Sean,

I believe that the words over spin and under spin have little value in pocket billiards but I'm not ready to throw TOI under the bus because of those terms. Personally, I think they belong in Tennis and maybe some other sports but not pool.

Maybe, I have a demilitarized zone to offer. It is the Magic Elixirs DMZ.

I believe it may be possible that while some people "get" what they need from "plain honest-to-goodness practice", while others do not, even though they give what they believe is their best effort. These other methods of description in technique, seem to be Magic Elixirs for some. It is quite apparent to me and I'm sure to you, that SOME PEOPLE have benefited from TOI as well as other controversial "systems".

I can tell you that without CJ sharing his unique perspectives, I might never have practiced hitting the cue ball with a just a touch of inside. So I guess what I am saying is that while his terminology might be not to your liking, his terminology and methods do stimulate interest in specific tasks that are often over-looked by some of us.

I think if you are honest and I know you will be (and unless I am mistaken), your biggest grievance is not what CJ teaches about TOI but the fact that he uses the forum to mine customers for him. If I am wrong, I apologize in advance.

It is my perception that the pool world needs unique teachers like CJ to make us scratch our heads and question whether we know it all or not. I've watched him play up close, I mean real up close and he plays differently than many other players. Does it really matter if he uses a touch of inside on every shot?

I believe that we should all set aside our personal perceptions when it comes to deciding what information is best for other people.

I could pull out a long list of people who have benefited from CTE/Pro1, Perfect Aim, TOI, SEE, Stick Aiming, Fractional Aiming, Ghost Ball Aiming etc. While some techniques/systems/methods might be more controversial than others, isn't it more important that some people are being helped with their pool games because of these subjects?

Maybe, some people just need the "Magic Elixir" and it might come in the form a unique way to perceive the most valuable shot line which is the one that is going to help you make the ball.

Personally, I don't call it Magic Elixir. I call it "unique perspective" and think this is what some people actually need to help them do all of the things that they aren't doing correctly.

Isn't it more important for more people to play better pool and have more fun playing pool than for any one of being "right" and having our way?

Maybe I'm not capable of explaining why I think these unique perspectives need to be given more leeway but I'm trying.

Your cyber pool friend who can't wait to meet you in person,

JoeyA

 

[Spimp13]

Did somebody say tennis?? High school doubles state champions 1998 where we won state by 2 points in a 3rd set tiebreaker. Sorry for thread derail, carry on

 

[CJ Wiley]

we should start using "west spin," and "east spin". LoL

Top/forward and bottom/back makes more sense than over or under.

To overspin the ball sounds more like putting extreme spin, and underspin the ball sounds like putting very little spin.

I guess that means we should start using "west spin," and "east spin". LoL

You are free to "make more sense" out of whatever makes you feel more mentally comfortable. Be careful though, you're giving away your "true speed"....and I think it may be appropriate to use "bottom". 'The Game is Our Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

Did you have a "bottom spin" backhand, topspin, or did you slice it?

Did somebody say tennis?? High school doubles state champions 1998 where we won state by 2 points in a 3rd set tiebreaker. Sorry for thread derail, carry on

I played tennis in the juniors "tri states" (Illinois, Iowa, Mo) and the Missouri Valley.....Ken Flach was our #1 player and he ended up doing will in Davis Cup doubles I heard.....tennis was my best game there for a few years, then I had to change to pool to make the ca$h.

Did you have a "bottom spin" backhand, topspin, or did you slice it?

 

[Spimp13]

Did you have a "bottom spin" backhand, topspin, or did you slice it?

I had a two handed backhand and for the most part I used top spin. However, I had to learn to incorporate a one handed slice as well as it seemed to come in handy, not only to extend my reach in some instances, but also to slow down the pace of the ball as the ball tends to die after it bounces on my opponents side of the net as opposed to topspin where it bounces forward quickly.

Then you had the serve to which at 5'7.6421" I had limited options. I had to use a kick serve and slice serve more often then I wanted to as a flat serve was harder for me to keep in. The taller guys could get a lot more "snap" on the ball and snap downward on the serve over the net a lot easier than me. It is a ton easier to do this when someone is 6' or taller. Due to my size I was forced to be more of an Agassi type baseline player which worked well for me, but limited some of my volley abilities at the net with my reach.

 

[BeiberLvr]

I guess that means we should start using "west spin," and "east spin". LoL

You are free to "make more sense" out of whatever makes you feel more mentally comfortable. Be careful though, you're giving away your "true speed"....and I think it may be appropriate to use "bottom". 'The Game is Our Teacher'

Or...and stay with me for this one...we could all just stick to using the terms that have been used forever in this game.

You know like, top, bottom, left, and right.

 

[West Point 1987]

Or...and stay with me for this one...we could all just stick to using the terms that have been used forever in this game.

You know like, top, bottom, left, and right.

I think the reason he's avoided using many of the "standard" terms is that if he were to say "Touch of Inside Spin" or "Touch of Inside English", most folks would overdo it, with too much spin and too little deflection, then get discouraged and drop it. The system approaches the address of a shot from a completely different perspective, focusing on the deflection (of the shaft, or squirt, if you're describing the CB) and not the resultant spin, which should be minimal. Focusing on spin or English takes away from the important focus on deflection, which is what anchors your shot line. No spin (post collision with the OB) is the idea, unless you need spin to change the angle off a rail. I figured out what he meant back when he first introduced this system...I'm okay with the different terms, and prefer not to debate semantics. I'll just spend my time tweaking it and making it work for me. Which it does.

 

[alstl]

I just got word that "If TOI is the ideal hit they must acquit"

I had an opportunity to meet that guy once. I walked on by without saying a word.

I will say I like the way you roll CJ. Always entertaining.

 

[CJ Wiley]

When we start thinking about "spin," it's a recipe for disaster.

That's correct, and also true in golf and tennis. If, in golf you are trying to "spin" the golf ball you will over do it and not be able to take advantage of using the spin to create zones......the same thing applies to tennis, you're much better off concentrating on your stoke and how it creates the desired impact on the ball.....golf ball, tennis ball, or, yes, even a pool ball.

When we start thinking about "spin," it's a recipe for disaster (when using the TOI Technique).

I think the reason he's avoided using many of the "standard" terms is that if he were to say "Touch of Inside Spin" or "Touch of Inside English", most folks would overdo it, with too much spin and too little deflection, then get discouraged and drop it.

The system approaches the address of a shot from a completely different perspective, focusing on the deflection (of the shaft, or squirt, if you're describing the CB) and not the resultant spin, which should be minimal.

Focusing on spin or English takes away from the important focus on deflection, which is what anchors your shot line. No spin (post collision with the OB) is the idea, unless you need spin to change the angle off a rail.

I figured out what he meant back when he first introduced this system...I'm okay with the different terms, and prefer not to debate semantics. I'll just spend my time tweaking it and making it work for me. Which it does.