I get tired of hearing....

fan-tum

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When discussing the pro players I get tired of hearing...well sure - if I practiced and played as much as they do, I'd (blah blah blah). Ain't gonna happen. You might only maginally improve. You take 100,00 people, teach the perfect fundamentals, let 'em practice for 5 years , and you might get a handful of good players. But I feel that the top players had it about 75% mastered the very first time they picked up a cue.
 
fan-tum said:
When discussing the pro players I get tired of hearing...well sure - if I practiced and played as much as they do, I'd (blah blah blah). Ain't gonna happen. You might only maginally improve. You take 100,00 people, teach the perfect fundamentals, let 'em practice for 5 years , and you might get a handful of good players. But I feel that the top players had it about 75% mastered the very first time they picked up a cue.
A. This is overstatement. It is commonly used in writing and speech for effect.
or;
B. Let's not take 100,00 people, let's take 100,00 B+ level pool players with jobs.
or;
C. Let's take 20 or the top 100 pool players, let them work _x_ job for 3 years (we better hope it isn't construction, coz there won't be a 'day 2 of study'!:D ;) :p :eek: ) and then measure how much skill has decreased.

Edit- Crap- I just realized you said, "You might only maginally improve", and that means there is a chance that the improvement has a chance at being to pro-level. So we agree.
 
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fan-tum said:
When discussing the pro players I get tired of hearing...well sure - if I practiced and played as much as they do, I'd (blah blah blah).

I agree that this gets irritating and really minimizes the accomplishments of those that play well. I suppose you could answer, "I know that you could be as good as them. Anyone COULD be. What's impressive is that THEY DID IT! That's why I am so proud of them and so dissappointed and ashamed of you!"

Instead, I try to be a little sympathetic. What they are really saying is "Just because I lack the discipline to set and achieve goals doesn't mean that I am not worthy of admiration from my fellow man. Please accept me." Of course it's true that pool prowess is a pretty poor way to determine your self-worth. The fact that they have to make the comment shows that they really could use a pat on the back. Why not give it to them (i.e., "I know you could be a champion if you wanted, _____, everyone that has seen you play knows that. That's ok, you've got other things going on in you're life that are more important right now."). It's probably true, and they need to hear it, why not give it to them?

There is one last way that I have seen this handled. Player A inquired whether or not player B would like to play a little for 1-200 hundred a set. Player B remarked that he hadn't been playing much lately (taken a couple of months off), and that if he had been playing he would play for thousands. Player A calmly replied that they could pick a date 3 months down the road to play and post up a couple of thousand now with a third party. He invited him to make the wager and practice as much as he wanted for three months, then they would play the match.


I try not to woof, but I enjoyed watching player B scramble for another excuse to not post the money...
 
It will always be impossible to not hear pool room bs as you describe, combine that with alcohol, woofing, hustling etc. its like askin' a duck to not quack.
 
fan-tum said:
When discussing the pro players I get tired of hearing...well sure - if I practiced and played as much as they do, I'd (blah blah blah). Ain't gonna happen. You might only maginally improve. You take 100,00 people, teach the perfect fundamentals, let 'em practice for 5 years , and you might get a handful of good players. But I feel that the top players had it about 75% mastered the very first time they picked up a cue.


Yeah but it is such a GOOD excuse....:D


Your statement all really depends....(on the amount of money at the end of the rainbow)

Didn't you notice the rise in the amount of "unknowns" that started appearing when the UPT started offering up millions of dollars of Monopoly Money...

That is also "WAY" farfetched on the 75%....I wouold say that 100% already had very good eye hand coordination, but not 1 of them had the game mastered from the very first time they picked up a cue.....

Besides...The reality is there are only a couple players that have really "Mastered" the game....(Excluding Efren & Mike) name one????

Throw out Earl...He has only mastered 9-Ball. Throw out Johnny...He has only mastered 9-ball.....
 
Black-Balled said:
A. This is overstatement. It is commonly used in writing and speech for effect.
or;
B. Let's not take 100,00 people, let's take 100,00 B+ level pool players with jobs.
or;
C. Let's take 20 or the top 100 pool players, let them work _x_ job for 3 years (we better hope it isn't construction, coz there won't be a 'day 2 of study'!:D ;) :p :eek: ) and then measure how much skill has decreased.

Edit- Crap- I just realized you said, "You might only maginally improve", and that means there is a chance that the improvement has a chance at being to pro-level. So we agree.


Tap, Tap, well said.
 
Tin Man...$100-$200 sets, maybe...but $1000's? Rarely, if ever, for the HUGE majority of players. This is confirmed even at the DCC, the biggest pool gambling event in the country. You can count on one or possibly two hands, the number of players gambling for that kind of money. Post it two or three months ahead? Never happen in a million years. They just flat don't have the cash to begin with. It's a nice thought though...:D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Tin Man said:
There is one last way that I have seen this handled. Player A inquired whether or not player B would like to play a little for 1-200 hundred a set. Player B remarked that he hadn't been playing much lately (taken a couple of months off), and that if he had been playing he would play for thousands. Player A calmly replied that they could pick a date 3 months down the road to play and post up a couple of thousand now with a third party. He invited him to make the wager and practice as much as he wanted for three months, then they would play the match.


I try not to woof, but I enjoyed watching player B scramble for another excuse to not post the money...
 
Tin Man said:
I agree that this gets irritating and really minimizes the accomplishments of those that play well. I suppose you could answer, "I know that you could be as good as them. Anyone COULD be. What's impressive is that THEY DID IT! That's why I am so proud of them and so dissappointed and ashamed of you!"

Instead, I try to be a little sympathetic. What they are really saying is "Just because I lack the discipline to set and achieve goals doesn't mean that I am not worthy of admiration from my fellow man. Please accept me." Of course it's true that pool prowess is a pretty poor way to determine your self-worth. The fact that they have to make the comment shows that they really could use a pat on the back. Why not give it to them (i.e., "I know you could be a champion if you wanted, _____, everyone that has seen you play knows that. That's ok, you've got other things going on in you're life that are more important right now."). It's probably true, and they need to hear it, why not give it to them?

There is one last way that I have seen this handled. Player A inquired whether or not player B would like to play a little for 1-200 hundred a set. Player B remarked that he hadn't been playing much lately (taken a couple of months off), and that if he had been playing he would play for thousands. Player A calmly replied that they could pick a date 3 months down the road to play and post up a couple of thousand now with a third party. He invited him to make the wager and practice as much as he wanted for three months, then they would play the match.


I try not to woof, but I enjoyed watching player B scramble for another excuse to not post the money...

Cool post, I have seen this exact thing take place, and love it myself.

I often say "IF is the biggest little word I know"

It does bother me when I hear people trying to take something away from someone else beacause they are jealous. We all know why exceptional talant is respected. It is precisely BECAUSE it not only takes talent, but it also takes time, discipline and putting other things lower on the list of priorties. They made sacrifices to achieve what they have. Sacrifices that the person making the statement was unable or unwilling to make. A single person cannot reach the top level on too many things, because there isn't enough time or energy to do so. It takes quite a bit to reach and maintain this level, and there is always many others waiting to jump if you slip just a bit. Many, many people can get VERY GOOD at this game. Very few have what it takes to be at the top. I really believe that the last 3% of talent/ ability that separates the top pros from the rest is the HARDEST part to achieve. Just about anybody with enough desire and dedication can get very good at this game ( some will have to put in more than others). Some people just do not have what it takes.

When I do something paticulary stupid or poorly executed ( more than usual), I love to say " I play just like a pro , except for a few little things like talent, dedication, and dicsipline" . These are not little things, people!

I have started many people off with learning pool. I have also taught guitar lessons. Many people has asked me " do you think music, or pool CAN be taught, or do you just have to have it?"

Many people think that you either have ability/ talent or you don't. I disagree. People come to the table their first time with a large difference in natural ability and what happens next is up to them. Two students may start with the same teacher on the same day. One may be naturally suited for this game, and the other just average. They can both reach a very high level of competence, though one may need to put in a lot more work to do it. Neither of them may reach top level. I honestly do not think EVERYONE has what it takes to be the best at any given activity, but EVERYINE can get to a level where they can take pride in their ability and get much enjoyment and satisfaction from it. Some people play for forty years and can't run two racks. Others pick up a cue for the first time, and turn pro in five years. Although it is the amount of hours, not years that makes a difference. I always love the fact that the older guys think that because they have been at it for 30 or 40 years they AUTOMATICALLY know more. Some of these guys play once a week, and took 15 years off, but they count it all. Then you have a guy who is 25 years old, but plays 14 hours a day for five years. Hours, not years.

Anyway, while this game CAN BE TAUGHT, and ANYBODY can learn. Not everybody can reach the highest level of play. Everybody who has tried, respect those that have acoomplished it, or have reached a very high level. BECAUSE we know what it takes to get there. We know what it has taken to get to where we are, and when we see someone else who has achieved the same level , or has far surpasssed it, we have to respect it.

I would be the best in the world if i didn't miss as much as I do!:D
 
Some people got talent others have to work hard at it.

fan-tum said:
When discussing the pro players I get tired of hearing...well sure - if I practiced and played as much as they do, I'd (blah blah blah). Ain't gonna happen. You might only maginally improve. You take 100,00 people, teach the perfect fundamentals, let 'em practice for 5 years , and you might get a handful of good players. But I feel that the top players had it about 75% mastered the very first time they picked up a cue.
I doubt anyone ever was an expert the first day they picked up a cue. I would agree there are some that are super fast learners and have natural ability and talent. I on the other hand have spent time learning the game and have to work hard at it to play at my best.

IMHO.... all top young players such as my SVB , Shannon when he was in his early twenties , etc have been playing the game since they where old enough to hold a cue. These guys haven't won major tournaments with one or two years under their belt. More like 15 or 20 years of playing.
 
Tin Man said:
I agree that this gets irritating and really minimizes the accomplishments of those that play well. I suppose you could answer, "I know that you could be as good as them. Anyone COULD be. What's impressive is that THEY DID IT! That's why I am so proud of them and so dissappointed and ashamed of you!"

Instead, I try to be a little sympathetic. What they are really saying is "Just because I lack the discipline to set and achieve goals doesn't mean that I am not worthy of admiration from my fellow man. Please accept me." Of course it's true that pool prowess is a pretty poor way to determine your self-worth. The fact that they have to make the comment shows that they really could use a pat on the back. Why not give it to them (i.e., "I know you could be a champion if you wanted, _____, everyone that has seen you play knows that. That's ok, you've got other things going on in you're life that are more important right now."). It's probably true, and they need to hear it, why not give it to them?

There is one last way that I have seen this handled. Player A inquired whether or not player B would like to play a little for 1-200 hundred a set. Player B remarked that he hadn't been playing much lately (taken a couple of months off), and that if he had been playing he would play for thousands. Player A calmly replied that they could pick a date 3 months down the road to play and post up a couple of thousand now with a third party. He invited him to make the wager and practice as much as he wanted for three months, then they would play the match.


I try not to woof, but I enjoyed watching player B scramble for another excuse to not post the money...


If someone woofs at me like that, saying "give me two months, and I'll play you for x amount of $", I will say " well, then you need to wait two months to talks @#$^!, till then keep it ot yourself".
 
BRKNRUN said:
That is also "WAY" farfetched on the 75%....I wouold say that 100% already had very good eye hand coordination, but not 1 of them had the game mastered from the very first time they picked up a cue.....

I agree. I did not start playing pool until I was in the Army, and 18 years old. I played on a crappy barracks table, with aluminum sticks that had no tips, and those tips were nothing more than bare metal peeled back into a concave surface from breaking with them.

On those tables, with those sticks, and no instruction, and NO ACCESS to good players, in two months, I was occasionaly running out in two innings when the table laid right. Once I started hanging out around good players, my game skyrocketed. I think a certain level of hand-eye coordination is needed, and beyond that, you need the smarts to learn the common patterns, the drive to perfect your fundamentals, and the heart to execute the tough shot for the match when it comes up.

Notice, I did not say these qualities will make you an uber-champion.. Just someone who plays at a VERY high level.

And come to think of it, heart often can (and DOES) make up for shortcomings in talent. I mean, look at Tommy Kennedy. He himself said he was no exceptional talent, he just wanted to win more than all the people he played against. And he was a practice demon. :D

Russ
 
Tin Man said:
I agree that this gets irritating and really minimizes the accomplishments of those that play well. I suppose you could answer, "I know that you could be as good as them. Anyone COULD be. What's impressive is that THEY DID IT! That's why I am so proud of them and so dissappointed and ashamed of you!"

Instead, I try to be a little sympathetic. What they are really saying is "Just because I lack the discipline to set and achieve goals doesn't mean that I am not worthy of admiration from my fellow man. Please accept me." Of course it's true that pool prowess is a pretty poor way to determine your self-worth. The fact that they have to make the comment shows that they really could use a pat on the back. Why not give it to them (i.e., "I know you could be a champion if you wanted, _____, everyone that has seen you play knows that. That's ok, you've got other things going on in you're life that are more important right now."). It's probably true, and they need to hear it, why not give it to them?

There is one last way that I have seen this handled. Player A inquired whether or not player B would like to play a little for 1-200 hundred a set. Player B remarked that he hadn't been playing much lately (taken a couple of months off), and that if he had been playing he would play for thousands. Player A calmly replied that they could pick a date 3 months down the road to play and post up a couple of thousand now with a third party. He invited him to make the wager and practice as much as he wanted for three months, then they would play the match.


I try not to woof, but I enjoyed watching player B scramble for another excuse to not post the money...
Unless you know this fellow, might want to rethink this strategy. McCready takes six months off for poker. I know PLENTY of guys that just plain out get no action without giving up the nuts, so they might take a month off. Be sure you know him, or he just might sneak up on you.
 
fan-tum said:
When discussing the pro players I get tired of hearing...well sure - if I practiced and played as much as they do, I'd (blah blah blah). Ain't gonna happen. You might only maginally improve. You take 100,00 people, teach the perfect fundamentals, let 'em practice for 5 years , and you might get a handful of good players. But I feel that the top players had it about 75% mastered the very first time they picked up a cue.

While you have over-stated the case IMHO there is merit to your fundamental point. The true great champions all possess extremely rare physiological AND phychological traits PLUS with some exceptions work FAR harder on their games than most others.

Remember Tiger's commercial with the wedge and the golf ball? He is on record that he actually did that stuff and there was no trick photography.

I think you could take 100,000 people at random and NONE of them could do what he did if they practiced for the rest of their lives.

Regards,
Jim
 
av84fun said:
While you have over-stated the case IMHO there is merit to your fundamental point. The true great champions all possess extremely rare physiological AND phychological traits PLUS with some exceptions work FAR harder on their games than most others.

Remember Tiger's commercial with the wedge and the golf ball? He is on record that he actually did that stuff and there was no trick photography.

I think you could take 100,000 people at random and NONE of them could do what he did if they practiced for the rest of their lives.

Regards,
Jim
When I was a stucco contractor we used to hit golf balls across the site at the end of the day for money One day this guy Dominic was watching and we asked him if he wanted a go. He had never played golf before and couldn't hit the ball. He asked us if he could hit it like a hurley shot and then he proceeded to hit a 5 iron about 170 yards the same way Tiger did it. Dominic used to play Hurling for Ireland and hitting like this was easy for him.He couldn't hit it normally though.
 
fan-tum said:
When discussing the pro players I get tired of hearing...well sure - if I practiced and played as much as they do, I'd (blah blah blah). Ain't gonna happen. You might only maginally improve. You take 100,00 people, teach the perfect fundamentals, let 'em practice for 5 years , and you might get a handful of good players. But I feel that the top players had it about 75% mastered the very first time they picked up a cue.
This is a common statement with a self-inflated ego and pool-hall dynamics. The truth is, almost no one on EARTH is good enough to be a world champion at any one thing. And only a few more make it to pro.

Ironically, why would anyone want to be a simple "pro" at pool? There's no money in it. You almost have to be the world's best to survive.

Next time someone says "I could be pro" ask them if they really want to take a pay cut.

-td
 
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If I only marginally improve after playing and practicing as much as the pros, then I'm a real numbskull indeed.

I don't own a table and have scarcely played more than twice a week since I started playing at age 22.

Yeah, it is an excuse at times, but talk to any player who works full-time and you'll understand why it's hard to keep up with the pros.
 
fan-tum said:
When discussing the pro players I get tired of hearing...well sure - if I practiced and played as much as they do, I'd (blah blah blah). Ain't gonna happen. You might only maginally improve. You take 100,00 people, teach the perfect fundamentals, let 'em practice for 5 years , and you might get a handful of good players. But I feel that the top players had it about 75% mastered the very first time they picked up a cue.

I think one of the biggest mistakes many players make is: thinking that good players are just that: good players with more talent. Yes, there's talent involved, but there's also a huge amount of knowledge that anyone with enough discipline can observe, learn, and incorporate into their game. Situations, such as those during which you have the opportunity to play better players, is the ideal opportunity to pick up all kinds of knowledge.

I was practicing one day and another player came up to me and asked, "If I played as much as you, would I be as good, or do you need to know something?" I answered, "You need to know something." That "something" is simply the ability and willingness to concentrate, experiment and learn.

In some ways pool is like a series of magic tricks. It all happens so fast, good players make it look effortless. And, if you don't know what to watch for, it looks absolutely amazing -- something you could never do.

But when you're playing a good player, you're getting a chance to see the magic tricks over and over again, way up close. This is your opportunity to study and learn how the trick is done, instead of just sitting there in amazement, like some rube at the fair.

Lou Figueroa
 
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