I just saw a "support pool in America" ad

[enzo]

ok, great, i will, but the way i'll do it is to end handicapped tournaments, leagues, and attempt to actually make it an asset to players who actually play good.

does everybody want to support american pool? cool, then make it a good thing, locally, when a player actually plays good then. dont ban him from every tournament and lable him some type of hustler just because you cant beat him. again, pool is the only sport like this, take golf, tennis or anything and a player can really take off in every regard when he shows some talent.

 

[JimS]

One of the most important skills a human being can have is good judgment in the process of deciding who to listen to, and perhaps more importantly, who not to listen to.

I think you maybe got a 'tude problem. Nobody listens to people who have 'tude problems.

 

[BigDogatLarge]

One of the most important skills a human being can have is good judgment in the process of deciding who to listen to, and perhaps more importantly, who not to listen to.

I think you maybe got a 'tude problem. Nobody listens to people who have 'tude problems.

you forgot first... lol

Dwight

second

 

[Cuebacca]

OK, then what? All the beginners stop bothering with the tournaments where they have zero chance to win, and you end up with only those same same players who played in the open tournaments. Or you can just gamble. But how are you going to get those beginners to gamble with you without giving them weight?

Handicapping gets more players involved, which means more money for the better players to win. I'm not saying there shouldn't be open tournaments too, but I don't think it's in your best interest to get rid of handicapped tournaments. If you're going to "support pool" you need to grow it and handicapping brings in more players. Just my opinion.

 

[AdChalk]

I agree

I've talked to a lot of C players that will not play in tournaments because they feel they are just throwing their money away. Handicap levels the play and hey... Giving up games, just makes me play better!






The more players, the bigger the $$$

OK, then what? All the beginners stop bothering with the tournaments where they have zero chance to win, and you end up with only those same same players who played in the open tournaments. Or you can just gamble. But how are you going to get those beginners to gamble with you without giving them weight?

Handicapping gets more players involved, which means more money for the better players to win. I'm not saying there shouldn't be open tournaments too, but I don't think it's in your best interest to get rid of handicapped tournaments. If you're going to "support pool" you need to grow it and handicapping brings in more players. Just my opinion.

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

ok, great, i will, but the way i'll do it is to end handicapped tournaments, leagues, and attempt to actually make it an asset to players who actually play good.

does everybody want to support american pool? cool, then make it a good thing, locally, when a player actually plays good then. dont ban him from every tournament and lable him some type of hustler just because you cant beat him. again, pool is the only sport like this, take golf, tennis or anything and a player can really take off in every regard when he shows some talent.

Great idea. Let's just let the top 3% of pool players go at it, and eliminate the remaining 97% since they have zero chance.

Brilliant! :banghead:

 

[tigerseye]

Maybe someone should have tournaments like this...A-player tourney on Mon. B-palyer tourney on Teus. C-players on Wed. D-players on Thurs. and E-players on Fri....
If every pool room would have this type of format and post tourney results here then maybe some towns may have more A-players and with posting this here then all the A-players will know where they can go for a tourney without gicing up ridiculous spots...Also anyone below an A- ranking is welcome to compete against the A-players...
But of course no one can play in the weaker divisions...
That would be sweet.

 

[iba7467]

To the league issue ...

The handicaps are supposed to make it fair and provide individuals a means to learn and grow in the sport (actually the leagues are there to make money). The problem is that once a player can win at a given handicap alot of them have no desire to elevate their game.

IF handicapped leagues would reward individual's monetarily for improving (moving up in rank) over time, I believe you would have more people making an effort to get better.

 

[crawfish]

Here is a good scenario. "A" player tourney on Monday, "B" player on Tuesday, "C" and "D" on Wednesday. D players getting the eight. That's it. Once you've placed in the top four twice, you move up. No moving back. Have the poolroom owner add a buck or two to the "A" tourney, and you have motivation to advance. There you have it. NO moving down.

 

[s0lidz]

I believe you have supporting pool confused with your own personal gain.

 

[cleary]

IF handicapped leagues would reward individual's monetarily for improving (moving up in rank) over time, I believe you would have more people making an effort to get better.

1000000000% agree. I think that is the reason people stay at the A or Open level and dont go pro. They would rather take money from fish then duke it out with sharks.

 

[enzo]

One of the most important skills a human being can have is good judgment in the process of deciding who to listen to, and perhaps more importantly, who not to listen to.

I think you maybe got a 'tude problem. Nobody listens to people who have 'tude problems.

if youd read closer notice it doesn't say if you should listen to me or anybody, but that it's important that one listens to the right people.

 

[enzo]

Great idea. Let's just let the top 3% of pool players go at it, and eliminate the remaining 97% since they have zero chance.

Brilliant! :banghead:

why do they have zero chance is the question????? for example 9 ball races to three..... very little practice, effort and thought would have to be put into it to beat even the best of players..... if you're mentally strong.

if you think the idea of helping and promoting good play in the US is "brilliant" as you put it, well, i dont know, i cant help you.

 

[smoooothstroke]

zero chance

I always encourage beginners to jump into $5.00 bar tourneys.If nothing else it is a cheap pool lesson.IMO any pool player has to be able to put their pride aside just play even if they have little or no chance of winning even 1 match.I played 2 tourneys a week from day 1 of becoming interested in pool.I was not good enough to win a match but I did not know that at the time.That 12 dollars a week did not hurt me at all,it was way cheaper then the route many would suggest to a beginning player.

 

[Jimmy M.]

I don't know about anyone else, but this is a post that may be worthy of the Hall of Fame, if ever there is one for Internet forum posts.

It's true. Good play is discouraged at the local level in many areas, starting with Arizona - although it has gotten better here than it used to be.

ok, great, i will, but the way i'll do it is to end handicapped tournaments, leagues, and attempt to actually make it an asset to players who actually play good.

does everybody want to support american pool? cool, then make it a good thing, locally, when a player actually plays good then. dont ban him from every tournament and lable him some type of hustler just because you cant beat him. again, pool is the only sport like this, take golf, tennis or anything and a player can really take off in every regard when he shows some talent.

 

[enzo]

I don't know about anyone else, but this is a post that may be worthy of the Hall of Fame, if ever there is one for Internet forum posts.

It's true. Good play is discouraged at the local level in many areas, starting with Arizona - although it has gotten better here than it used to be.

im glad at least a couple people agree

and the way i see it, say we lose a half dozen or so john schmidt caliber players every five or so years because they get discouraged from playing good. perhaps unlikely, but that is my point here.

to look at it another way, do you think they have leagues or handicapped tournaments in the philipines??

 

[sjm]

ok, great, i will, but the way i'll do it is to end handicapped tournaments, leagues, and attempt to actually make it an asset to players who actually play good.

does everybody want to support american pool? cool, then make it a good thing, locally, when a player actually plays good then. dont ban him from every tournament and lable him some type of hustler just because you cant beat him. again, pool is the only sport like this, take golf, tennis or anything and a player can really take off in every regard when he shows some talent.

Nonsense. The golfer that shoots in the high 70's neither makes nor expects to make any more money at it than the golfer that shoots in the mid 80's. Both of them, by any reasonable standard, rate as accomplished golfers. It is the handicap system itself that makes golf great, allowing matches on fairly equal footing between players of varying abilitites. Just like in pool, there are those that manage to beat the system, but it does little to detract from a system that, by bringing players of all abilities into the spectrum of competitive golf. makes the casual golfer more passionate about the sport. The same mechanisms work in pool, through handcaped tournaments and leagues, albeit with the same imperfections. Amateur pool, as is often noted on this forum, is alive, well and thriving. The BCA, APA, and VNEA championships are swarming with eager competitors every year, and they number in the tens of thousands.

Handicapped tournaments and leagues are the backbone of American pool.

 

[enzo]

Nonsense. The golfer that shoots in the high 70's neither makes nor expects to make any more money at it than the golfer that shoots in the mid 80's. Both of them, by any reasonable standard, rate as accomplished golfers. It is the handicap system itself that makes golf great, allowing matches on fairly equal footing between players of varying abilitites. Just like in pool, there are those that manage to beat the system, but it does little to detract from a system that, by bringing players of all abilities into the spectrum of competitive golf. makes the casual golfer more passionate about the sport. The same mechanisms work in pool, through handcaped tournaments and leagues, albeit with the same imperfections. Amateur pool, as is often noted on this forum, is alive, well and thriving. The BCA, APA, and VNEA championships are swarming with eager competitors every year, and they number in the tens of thousands.

Handicapped tournaments and leagues are the backbone of American pool.

nice points, yet try looking at it this way.....

take a guy that is a 10 handicap, a scratch golfer and a 80 year old lady that has been golfing a week and put them in a handicap tournament. now, assuming the handicap system does what it is supposed to do, all three have the same chance to win, right? well, why not just play bingo or something, seriously. i mean, if you can grab a beginner off the street and they have the same chance to win as anybody (the whole basis of a handicap tournament), why play.... it's kinda silly if you think about it in terms of winning and losing. it would pretty much all be dictated by chance (again, assuming the handicap system is perfect).

here's my second point.... when i assume above that the handicap system will be perfect (ie each player has an equal oppotunity to win).... well, that is NEVER the case. an advantage will ALWAYS go to a certain player or players. this advantage can be gained by......

-a player who takes advantage of the handicapping system somehow (we see this all the time with the league handicaping, right?)

-a td that favors certain players over others

-just by chance or human error certain players may be underrated and favored

-real good players being banned, but now all you've done is created new favorites.... and i bet these are the guys that were trying to get the real good players banned too

the point you should be getting here is WHY would we want one of these above things to decide the winner of a tournament??? why oh why? why not have the winner, be uuummmmm, the best player?? that would be novel, wouldnt it? this philosophy also has the added benefit of actually promoting good play, which was the whole gist of this thread.

if people want to try and change the winners of their events, i would suggest shorter races.... or if a guy wins two weeks in a row have him sit out a week.... something like that.

with all that said, i do see your point and perhaps handicapped tournaments do have their place, yet i feel they should be far fewer in number that "normal" events.

 

[sjm]

nice points, yet try looking at it this way.....

take a guy that is a 10 handicap, a scratch golfer and a 80 year old lady that has been golfing a week and put them in a handicap tournament. now, assuming the handicap system does what it is supposed to do, all three have the same chance to win, right? well, why not just play bingo or something, seriously. i mean, if you can grab a beginner off the street and they have the same chance to win as anybody (the whole basis of a handicap tournament), why play.... it's kinda silly if you think about it in terms of winning and losing. it would pretty much all be dictated by chance (again, assuming the handicap system is perfect).

here's my second point.... when i assume above that the handicap system will be perfect (ie each player has an equal oppotunity to win).... well, that is NEVER the case. an advantage will ALWAYS go to a certain player or players. this advantage can be gained by......

-a player who takes advantage of the handicapping system somehow (we see this all the time with the league handicaping, right?)

-a td that favors certain players over others

-just by chance or human error certain players may be underrated and favored

-real good players being banned, but now all you've done is created new favorites.... and i bet these are the guys that were trying to get the real good players banned too

the point you should be getting here is WHY would we want one of these above things to decide the winner of a tournament??? why oh why? why not have the winner, be uuummmmm, the best player?? that would be novel, wouldnt it? this philosophy also has the added benefit of actually promoting good play, which was the whole gist of this thread.

if people want to try and change the winners of their events, i would suggest shorter races.... or if a guy wins two weeks in a row have him sit out a week.... something like that.

with all that said, i do see your point and perhaps handicapped tournaments do have their place, yet i feel they should be far fewer in number that "normal" events.

You make some excellent points, and the system has some serious flaws. Still, we must strive to perfect the system rather than abandon it. I think we're not that far apart, philosophically, here.

 

[Njhustler1]

You make some excellent points, and the system has some serious flaws. Still, we must strive to perfect the system rather than abandon it. I think we're not that far apart, philosophically, here.

Agreed. It's kind of like an old saying about democracy. Unfortunately I can't recall it verbatim but its something along the lines of "a bad governmental system that's better than all the other options".