I know nothing about cues - help me understand

Yeah You would be cutting out a heck of alot of makers if that was a deal breaker. And if you go back in time You would be cutting out some big names too, because alot of people used Burton's blanks back then.

I would suggest if someone really wanted the whole cue built by the maker, to either find one of the few that make their own, or order a V-cut cue with an "A" joint, as alot of makers have no issues with building them from scratch that way.

If I use a FS blank in a cue, It still goes through the same seasoning proccess as one I build from a dowel or square minus the "A" joint being installed, and most everything else in the cue minus the bumper is made by hand, in some cases I even make My own Pins. I had a coco blank hanging for years, turned It very slowly, and It moved each time no matter how slowly I turned It. I've had other blanks that were turned within under a years time, and they never moved a bit. It's all in the nature of wood, and it all acts differently. Sometimes they have to be culled like any wood, and there are many reasons for that. I've bought batches of blanks where I was lucky If half of them made My standards or were atleast close enough that I could live with them.

Bar cues like the old valley, brunswicks, and dufferins can make decent conversion blanks too, but the good ones are far and few between. Like mentioned, some have putty or other unsightly issues, and some the centering is off so bad, It can make It nearly imposible to get the points anywhere near close.

I've had the pleasure to see a few old sp's built by some of the big name makers back in their haydays when they were starting out. Have shot with some too, and I could see how some got the popularity that they have now days. I've heard some of them sold for as little a 80 bucks back then. One thing I can say is a good percentage of them, although not always very fancy looking,top of the line, and many times the points are nowhere near even, but they were actually very good player cues. One thing these cues had in common is they were obvioulsy made from one piece cues.

FS Sp's and sp type conversions, are generally lower dollar cues or better put Player cues, although some makers do things to spice them up alittle bit to give the customer more bang for the buck, like custom ringwork and/or inlays. For most people there's just too much time in splicing them theirselves, and It's simply not cost effective when there are people out there that sell blanks for less then they can buy the woods alone for, and are far better set up for that operation.

A good percentage of people could build their own if they devoted the energy and time to It, and I can see some people wanting them to made made by their maker, but as someone put it, for most It's just not worth while unless they are doing a larger production run.

I would say to expect to pay quite a bit more from maker that splices His own. Atleast I know if I went through all the trouble then the prices would be double or more, but that's me.:smile:

Greg
 
masonh said:
he and 400 others.as far as sneaky petes go hardly anyone makes their own blanks.

I dont know jack about cuemaking and dont pretend to, but wouldnt making your own blanks on a sneaky be too costly? Wouldnt it be better to buy a blank and do a conversion with a sneaky? Or is there other reasons behind it?

Just trying to learn something myself:)
 
watchez said:
I DO NOT WANT TO GET IN THE VARNEY ISSUE AND DO NOT WANT THIS THREAD AS PART OF THAT ISSUE but this quote by him had me trying to figure out what he was saying, so for my general knowledge purposes.......

"ebony hustler blank turned near finish size. It was one of the very nice old ebony Duff blanks. Truth is after turning it to final size...I simply was not happy with the way the points had gaps that looked to be filled with wood filler or such by Dufferin. I'm sure most players would of been fine with the cosmetics of the blank but I was not. I just didn't want anyone posting close up pics asking why the sides of a couple points had a "filler" veneer. So I started over from a oversize real ebony fullsplice and not a Duff blank. I now have the new blank finally turned to size "

so my questions are -

what is a blank? Does this mean the cue maker is not really 'making' the cue or the points? Is he using a house stick?

what is a real ebony fullsplice? does this have points 'pre made'

when a cuemaker talks about turned it to size, does that mean because a housestick is usually fatter than a normal playing cue?

how can I tell how my cue was made? and how many cuemakers use this technique?

Thanks for the responses (in advance).


I think I understand you question here, but please bear with me, because the terminology these days is in my opinion blurred.

I believe that the term Cue Makers should be divided into three categories, which are Cue Builder, Cue maker and Master Cue Maker.

The following are what I believe identifies which category some one falls into, but let me also say these are my terminologies and mine alone. To my limited knowledge there is no written criteria that identifies the separation of the three groups.

Cue Builder:

1. To be a cue builder you must have the ability to repair / restore most cues brought to you by customers. This includes complete refinish work if requested by a customer.

2. Cue builders in most cases learn to build cues on their own by repairing cues. The techniques learned by doing repairs are often used in the beginning to build basic cues without points or from blanks pre-made with or without Veneers, and from coverted house cues. They also have the ability to prepare wood for cue construction. This wood may be purchased in board form, pre-cut squares, or in pre-doweled rounds.

3. Many cue builders that were not taught by some experienced craftsman learned their trade in the two above categories. In addition they learned by buying books or by completely disassembling broken cues that can not be repaired. I fall into this category myself, I am completely self taught, and I learned all aspects of cue building by trial and error. The fact is most of the Cue Makers today that are considered Master Craftsman are self taught. In addition, most cue builders do not have the ability to do inlays in a cues forearm or a cues butt, and their equipment is limited to the tasks at hand, which is mostly repairing or refinishing of cues.


Cue Maker:

1. A cue maker has progressed to the point where their skills fall in between a cue builder and a master cue maker. These individuals can make basic point construction such as Butterfly Points and V-Cut / V-spliced (Inlay-ed Points) but have not perfected these techniques to perfection.

2. Cue makers still rely mainly on purchased blanks and even old house cues to for cues they are building. Cue makers generally have all the equipment necessary to preform all phases of cue construction, however, they do not have the necessary experience and techniques to move on to the next level.

Master Cue Maker:

1. Master Cue Makers can do anything a Cue Builder or a Cue Maker can, however, they still will use pre-made blanks or house cues to build cues with points upon a customers request. Master Cue Makers produce their own blanks either by excepted standards or by standards they have developed on their own and are theirs alone. Master Cue Makers in my opinion can produce any form of cue construction from a Full Spliced Blank to their chosen style of Butterfly Blanks. In addition the only parts of the cue they do not make themselves are the Metal Connecting Screws, Metal, Resin, or Wood Joint pins, and the cues Rubber Bumpers. Also Master Cue Builders either hand inlay their cues or use other forms of machinery either manual or CNC Controlled to cut pockets for a cues inlays.

Today, in my opinion the number of cue makers that would fall into the Master Cue maker Category would number less then 100 world wide. Most people building cues today are nothing more than Cue Builders, or Cue makers, while some of these people do not move up by choice most do not have the ability to ever achieve the title Master Cue Maker.

Full Spliced Blank: I am unsure how many individuals today are using this technique to build their Blanks. This technique is how the Famous Brunswick Titlist was built. For the most part people today are calling a Full Splice Blank, a Blank with cut points / inlay-ed points that are spliced to the cues handle area / Butt. This technique is accomplished by using a table saw and jigs, a band saw and jigs, or by using a combination of both pieces of equipment. This is the only technique that can be called a true splice all others are some form of inlay-ed points.

fullsplice.jpg

V-Spliced / Cut point / Inlay-ed point construction: These terms all apply to the same construction techniques. This technique is not a true splice, in fact it is a inlay. These points are cut on a Lathe using a router or other milling technique / milling machine, and they can be duplicated by using CNC Mills with small bits or by finishing the end of the points by hand. This is the most common form of cue point construction used today. The only way to identify this form of construction is either by removing the cues wrap or by a cue having a ring where the cues forearm ends and the wrap begins.

V-cut.jpg

V-cut2.jpg

Butterfly Splice:

Butterfly splices are not really a splice, they are another form of inlay-ed points. This technique can be accomplished using a band saw, table saw, or by using a router or other form of milling device. This form of point construction is the easiest form of point construction there is, and requires very minimal equipment. However, most individuals making Butterfly cues have not perfected this technique. Most are not able to make Butterfly Spliced points that are even, and allow the Butterfly Splice with veneers to overlap each other where they meet. Only a hand full of professionals have been able to perfect this technique.

Butterfly.jpg

butterfly2.jpg

I hope this helps explain the differences in levels of ability and construction techniques. I am certain that I have left some information out that others would add, and I am also certain that some will not agree with my comments in general. I am not an expert, however, I have tried to explain what I believe to be true, if anyone has anything to add that I have missed please add it. I am now nothing more than a student, and I am always looking to learn something new.

Hope this helps!!
 
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watchez said:
Seems like I could buy a premade blank, a premade shaft, some sand paper, some stain and have my own cue line that would be like many others. Someone tell me what I am missing in this thought process.

You could ... if you have the equipment, knowledge (read the book), and skill to do it.
So far you have just expressed your total lack of understand about cue making.
By saying such things you show you do not have a clue as to what it takes to make a pool cue that is worth making.
It is really very simple ... the finished cue is either a quality piece of equipment or it is not.
How it got there should not be the main issue.

My point was that if you really wanted to know these things you can educate yourself with available information.
 
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Dave38 said:
Even great cuemakers like 'Buska' used blanks, made by people who specialized in them. Does that mean he was a hack who was too lazy to make it himself? Or someone who wanted to provide the best he could and realized others were better at making that part than he. He chose to use the best part availible to put the best product out to his customers.

Dave

Well said Dave, you "GET IT".
 
watchez said:
I will add Willie to the list that uses premade blanks - and maybe even premade shafts.

Be sure to get my name right on your list.
It is WILLEE ... shortened from my name ... William Lee
If you need more help you can find the correct spelling in the second edition of the Blue Book Of Pool Cues or on my website.
www.willeecue.com

Thanks and good luck with your project.
 
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manwon said:
I hope this helps explain the differences in levels of ability and construction techniques. I am certain that I have left some information out that others would add, and I am also certain that some will not agree with my comments in general. I am not an expert, however, I have tried to explain what I believe to be true, if anyone has anything to add that I have missed please add it. I am now nothing more than a student, and I am always looking to learn something new.

Hope this helps!!

Well Manwon, I dont agree with all of what you have said here but the jest of it is correct. There are certinaly different levels of people that make cues.
Good, Bad, indifferent, its is the truth.
 
I like your breakdown Craig- well thought out. I wonder what everyone else thinks about these categories?
 
Thanks for everyones responce to my post, I understand that many have differing opinions and I welcome others to correct this and help make it a functional model.

Thanks Craig
 
WilleeCue]Watches, if you want to understand how a cue is made invest some money in your education and buy the book Chris Hightower sells.
After reading it you can come back here and tell others the proper way to make the best hitting cue in the world.[/

He would only be able to tell you how to make the second best hitting cue in the world, as I didn't write everything I know in the book. :D :D :D
Just Kidding!
It was good talking to you yesterday.
 
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Ok take aside the maker or builder of the cue and you are interested in a playing cue that plays well. An everyday player. Not a cue that you can say "so and so" made this cue. Ive seen $200 cues that look exactly the same as a $600 cue and have no difference in hit. Other than the initials on the butt cap they are the same cue. Which one would you buy?
 
watchez said:
Gee Willie, if I wanted to read an entire book than I guess I should just ask that this entire thread get deleted.

Or maybe I touched a nerve. I will add Willie to the list that uses premade blanks - and maybe even premade shafts.

I must be missing something. To me, a cuemaker using blanks 'because it takes to long to create' is like a chef using Ragu sauce out of a jar,

Seems like I could buy a premade blank, a premade shaft, some sand paper, some stain and have my own cue line that would be like many others. Someone tell me what I am missing in this thought process.

Swathes, take it easy man. Willie was just pointing out one of the best sources for vergin cue makers. It is common for people starting out to use blanks as it takes a long time to collect wood and let it season. Also your higher end sneakys are usally made from a full splice blank. These blanks would be extreemly expensive to make one or two at a time. The fixtures need to be left on the machines not allowing the use of them for other task. Most cue makers will use their own wood as it is cheaper for them however if they need a paticular item it is possible to purchase already turned down close to size. If I could just buy a bunch of parts and slap them together then there would be too many a$$es like me making cues. A true custome cue takes a long time to make (done correctly) and should truly be a work of art. Even an artist may need to buy some canvas and paint.

good luck, jim.
 
Dave38 said:
Because the cuemaker buys his wood instead of growing it, harvesting it, drying it over a hot fire, cutting it, forging the hot metal into joint pins, making the polymers for the ferrules in their kitchen, raise the cow, butcher it for the leather to tan and make tips out of, etc. Does that make him less of a cuemaker or the quality of his product less?
The equipment required to make fullsplice cues is not cheap, and not small in size, which eats up space in a small shop, as most cuemakers have. Also, the amount of setup time to make a run of these is considerable. The expertise needed to repeatedly make a quality fullsplice blank is huge. Alot of wood is wasted just trying to dial in the jigs and machines perfectly so that the blanks come out perfect. Most cuemakers simply don't have the time, nor the space, nor the money to waste doing this. How far back would the wait lists be if all had to make their own blanks? Not to mention the price increase to cover all the additional costs. Even great cuemakers like 'Buska' used blanks, made by people who specialized in them. Does that mean he was a hack who was too lazy to make it himself? Or someone who wanted to provide the best he could and realized others were better at making that part than he. He chose to use the best part availible to put the best product out to his customers.
If you think it so easy to buy your own parts and make your own cue line, go ahead. Hope you have a lot of time on your hands and money to replace all the 'blanks' you end up burning because they end up like Kaka. Alot of work, machines, money and patience is required to make a quality cue, whether it's from a pre-bought blank, or a blank made by the maker himself. A butt blank is just a starting point, the maker buys all the parts, from wood to pins, etc. Then assembles these parts into a beautiful work of art.
A premade butt blank is oversized, length and diameter wise. It still takes considerably time to slowly cut it down properly, and precisely, while still maintaining the accuracy of the points, and stability of the wood. Then there is the making of the joint collars, rings, butt sleeves, etc. Won't even get into the making of a shaft from scratch. Untill you've tried it, or seen it in person, I wouldn't recommend making too many blanket statements about how easy it is or imply that the cuemaker is less of a maker because they use a blank to start with.
If you really want to understand the whole thing, then you really need to read Chris's book as Willie suggested, maybe a few others also, and then buy some videos.
Just my opinion....
Dave
No Dave - you need to work on your argument. Obviously a Master Chef doesn't have a garden out back, til the dirt, plant tomatoes from seed, water them, and then make his sauce. But he does not use Ragu out of a jar simply because he doesn't have the space to store a bunch of tomatoes or the time to make the sauce like a good italian mother does. No matter how good Ragu might taste. He wouldn't dare serve Ragu to his customers and charge them $25 a plate. Just like a cuemaker using a full splice and premade rings, butt caps, joints, etc. should not be charging the people the same.
 
WilleeCue said:
You could ... if you have the equipment, knowledge (read the book), and skill to do it.
So far you have just expressed your total lack of understand about cue making.
By saying such things you show you do not have a clue as to what it takes to make a pool cue that is worth making.
It is really very simple ... the finished cue is either a quality piece of equipment or it is not.
How it got there should not be the main issue.

My point was that if you really wanted to know these things you can educate yourself with available information.
Gee Willee - you have expressed your total lack of COMPREHENSION. Please re-read the title to my thread & then type again that I have lack of understanding about cue making. Oh wait, I think I admitted that.

But from the facts being told to me, I could make my own cue. Again, I was the 8th grade state champ in woodworking. My father was a master carpenter. But if I made it out of pre-made parts, I wouldn't sell it as a custom cue.
 
manwon said:
I think I understand you question here, but please bear with me, because the terminology these days is in my opinion blurred.


Hope this helps!!
Manwon, thanks for your INTELLIGENT reply. I like your cuemaker categories. They make sense.

What category is Willee in?

What category is this cuemaker in http://jerryterbrock.com/index.htm
 
I didn't see any full splices on that page. Most looked to be either flat bottom inlay or v-point inlay. A bigger percentage of makers do that sort of work. Full splices are a different type of beast.

I wouldn't assume that someone uses premade joint,caps, ringwork, or what have you Just because They use a FS blank in sneakies or conversions. I usually don't, and I know many others don't either, although some may I suppose.
 
Watchez, cuemakers don't make the blanks not because they can't, but because it's not cost effective or efficient. Nobody wants to pay $2000 for a sneaky, and if they did then lots of guys would be building their own blanks. Fact is, building full splice blanks is not tough to do, but requires dedicated machinery that can only be used in the making of the blanks. For a cue that costs only a few hundred bucks, it's not cost effective for a builder to invest in this machinery.

Building a sneaky takes a lot of work to do correctly, even from a supplied blank. It's not like we get a blank that's ready for a shaft & finish. We have to take several cuts on the blank over long periods of time, just like any other wood. Rings, collars, shafts, etc. are still all made by the builder. He also does all the weighting & balancing & then finishing. Keeping the points even is another subject altogether. Point is, there's much more work than given credit or realized by somebody who has not done it themselves. Even with the work involved, the cues sell for less than plain jane models from the same builder simply because it's commonly accepted & expected in the pool playing world that sneakies should be cheap cues. They are not simply house cues cut in half anymore. So it's not really worth it for a builder to make his own blanks unless he's going to be building a whole lot of sneakies.

A 24" piece of ebony costs roughly $50. An 18" piece of birdseye of good quality costs $15-20. That's $65-$70 for raw wood that still needs cut & glued & turned. An ebony into birdseye blank from Schmelke, a common supplier, is less than $100. They buy wood by the pallet load & have several machines set up for splicing so they can make blanks faster, cheaper & better than a builder who only builds a few sneakies. It only makes sense. Now if the cue buyer does not mind paying a couple G's for a sneaky, then custom builders might be more inclined to build their own blanks. But as of now, it's not worth it.

Personally, I build sneakies from blanks built by Schmelke. I either send or hand deliver the wood for them to use, or trust Dave to choose his best stock for me. From there it's more work & more skill than actually building a plain jane from scratch. But I get less money for sneakies so I don't build many. I love them, but can't get paid what they are worth, so I don't build many. I think most builders feel this way. So again, it's actually much more work involved than just slapping a joint pin in & staining. It's so much work in fact that it's not really worth the time, unless you don't care about point evenness or balance or weight. But rarely is it profitable. So if you want the builder to do it all, then pay for the work & extra machinery. And if you don't want a sneaky built from a supplied blank, then don't buy it. But don't be so quick to judge the difficulty of the task until you experience it personally. Once you do it yourself I think you'd have a different outlook on the subject.
 
watchez said:
Gee Willee - you have expressed your total lack of COMPREHENSION. Please re-read the title to my thread & then type again that I have lack of understanding about cue making. Oh wait, I think I admitted that.

Actually from what I have read I think you started this thread to start an argument.
I think I have been civil with you and provided more than enough information to answer your question.
Sorry if I hit a nerve with you but your tone and style suggested
that you were not being 100% honest with your intent here.
If I am wrong then again, sorry.
Hope you got what you came here for.

watchez said:
Manwon, thanks for your INTELLIGENT reply. I like your cuemaker categories. They make sense.

What category is Willee in?

I think I can best answer that for you.
I am just a humble cue maker here in Corpus Christi, Texas.
What you would call an old fart, stubborn in many ways and far from a perfect being.
I buy my wood and make my cues and hope others like them.
I profess to be nothing other than what I am and what I make speaks for itself.
My cues are what they are and no amount of BS will make them anything else.
 
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