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- Thread starter billiardthought
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Hitting that hard and with conditions that clean, I could see that much spin transfer. The cueball spends alot of time in contact with the 1st rail on that shot. With all that draw, it'll pickup even more right than was already on the cueball after contact. Not saying he didn't hit some right spin, but didn't look like he had too.
Freeze the video at the his contact point with the cueball. Looks pretty center....perhaps a smidge of right, but no more than that.
It was bottom right.
I don't doubt Corey could have pulled off the shot with straight bottom, especially on slippery conditions like that, but the spin we see off of the 2nd and 3rd cushions was definitely not a result of contact with the 1st cushion. The cueball goes pretty much perpendicular into that first rail, and considering the new cloth it's doubtful there was any appreciable spin transfer at that point.
Aaron
I don't doubt Corey could have pulled off the shot with straight bottom, especially on slippery conditions like that, but the spin we see off of the 2nd and 3rd cushions was definitely not a result of contact with the 1st cushion. The cueball goes pretty much perpendicular into that first rail, and considering the new cloth it's doubtful there was any appreciable spin transfer at that point.
Aaron
the shot is straight bottom. no right english. its easy to think it has right hand english but look at both the tangent line and how the ball reacts off the rail. if it had right english it wouldnt make that loop it would simply hit the rail, reverse and come back. in this case the ball takes the tangent angle to the rail then comes straight off the rail then makes that big looping draw. it is pure center draw and the stroke of a world class player.
My opinion also.
My vote is straight draw. No applied spin at all.
It didn't reverse off of the first rail because the cloth is brand new, and the friction coefficient is too low. Corey would not have played the shot without right hand spin because he couldn't predict the exact angle he would get going into the first cushion. If it turned out to be a slight up-table angle, and if his draw didn't grab exactly how he wanted, the side pocket scratch would have been in play. Plus, even with a stroke as accurate as his, a centerball hit would be dangerous on a shot like this considering the margin of error could result in a slight bit of inside spin, which could have killed his action and ruined the shot.
But the real proof is in the residual spin we see on the 2nd and 3rd rails - again, that simply could not be the result of a near perpendicular contact with the first cushion, especially a cushion wrapped in brand new cloth.
Aaron
I also agree with this assessment.
Keep in mind that the cueball is much narrower at the bottom. You don't have to hit far from center (you can't, actually, as there simply isn't the real estate) to produce heavy rotation.
Aaron
Where does all the residual spin on the cue ball come from if the stroke is straight draw?
Good question. The way the cueball hits the rails
the only english it can realistically pick up would make
it spin clockwise, not counter clockwise as it does.
Therefore, obviously right hand english and a decent
amount of it aswell for the cueball to still spin in place for
a few seconds after travelling 10-12 feet and 3 rails.
gr. Dave
the only english it can realistically pick up would make
it spin clockwise, not counter clockwise as it does.
Therefore, obviously right hand english and a decent
amount of it aswell for the cueball to still spin in place for
a few seconds after travelling 10-12 feet and 3 rails.
gr. Dave
Here's the CB's exact after-contact path, taken directly from several screen grabs. The gray CBs are going into the rail and the white CBs are rebounding away from the rail.
I've copied a mirror image of the white CBs going "through" the rail to show what the curve would look like if the rail wasn't there. You can see that it's a continuing smooth curve - if spin had taken to a noticeable degree on the rail, there would be a sharp turn instead of the smooth continuing curve.
There's lots of spin on the CB in the end, but it doesn't seem to have much if any effect on the CB's rebound from the rail.
pj
chgo
View attachment 87914
I've copied a mirror image of the white CBs going "through" the rail to show what the curve would look like if the rail wasn't there. You can see that it's a continuing smooth curve - if spin had taken to a noticeable degree on the rail, there would be a sharp turn instead of the smooth continuing curve.
There's lots of spin on the CB in the end, but it doesn't seem to have much if any effect on the CB's rebound from the rail.
pj
chgo
View attachment 87914
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Actually, I think your diagram proves there was right hand spin. It appears the cueball was moving very slightly up-table when it struck the cushion, which means any reversal of that angle would have required a ton of side spin considering the new cloth and the speed of the cueball. I would submit that most of the initial reversal we do see after contact with the first cushion (from the 4th to the 5th dot) was due to outside spin, as the draw had not really started to bite all that hard yet.
Aaron
Aaron
If you visualize the shot without the rail there (using the mirror image white balls), you can see that a draw shot could make that smooth curve (I think). That means draw can also make the rebounding curve.
Also the last segment of the path into the rail isn't a straight line; it's a curve like the rest of the path. In other words, the CB hit the rail going almost perpendicular.
pj
chgo
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And came off the rail almost perpendicular. I'll try to remember to ask Corey how he intended to play the shot. He has already said he was surprised himself by the result.
On one of the TAR interviews, Justin had Corey shoot one of his crazy match shots and try to recreate it. Does anyone remember if this was the shot? I think he did the spot shot without hitting a rail. I don't remember if he also did this shot.
Now here is the question...
Can any of us recreate Corey's shot??? I'm not even going to try, lol.
Can any of us recreate Corey's shot??? I'm not even going to try, lol.
Maybe on new cloth with a juiced CB and lots of tries (and protection on the windows).
pj
chgo
I see what you're saying, Pat, and I also believe draw alone could make that curve. It's hard to visualize the rail not being there due to how much energy it takes away from the ball. If it weren't there, I assume the cueball would have slid for an additional 6"-12" before the draw really kicked in, and that the arc would have been gentler (due to the additional speed) than the dramatic hook we saw in Corey's shot.
I just don't think the shot in the video was played with straight draw. Honestly, on this slick equipment, I wouldn't expect the shot to look much different with or without the right hand spin. The ball is moving too fast when it hits the first cushion for the side spin to have a dramatic effect (again, on this super slick equip), and the only real evidence we would see is residual spin on the 2nd and 3rd cushions. We do see quite a lot of that, and for me to believe it was straight draw, that leftover spin has to be explained. We can plainly see how slippery the conditions are, so I would need some serious convincing to believe that spin was rubbed on there by the OB or the cushion - we also agree that the cueball went into that cushion nearly perpendicular, which in my mind kind of rules it out as a potential source of the spin.
Aaron
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