I want to clear something up!

George said:
I`ll tell you of a little experience I had at a big tourney, for the record I don`t believe in tipping either and the main reason is there is always something going on that the rail is not aware of.

I had no stake in the calcutta at this tournament but I made a lot of extra $$$ on the finals because I knew the outcome in advance and I`ll tell you how. The finals pitted Bustamante against Reyes and 20 minutes before the match started I discovered a little info that most people weren`t aware of. Knowing some of the big spenders in the calcutta it so happened that I knew the guys who bought Bustamante and Reyes in the calcutta. I also discovered that Bustamante bought half of himself but Reyes had chosen not to buy half of himself. Why is this important info????? Anyone who has half a brain and knew this info would know that Bustamante was going to win the match. I placed several bets on the rail and cleaned up(everyone wanted Reyes).
Now here`s the question I pose to all the jelly supporters, If you bought Reyes and took down second in the calcutta, would you have tipped him? If you say yes then you must not like money. He just dumped and cost you first place $$$$$ in the calcutta. This is just one of the many reasons I wouldn`t tip if I win in a calcutta. You never know what really happened.
Some of the examples I`ve seen in this thread are not comparing apples to apples. Throwing a player a walking stick is totally different than tipping from your calcutta winnings. I took all the risk and I will keep all the rewards because I never know if things were on the up and up. This is a sad but true fact when it comes to big tournament pool, the players will do whatever puts the most $$$$$ in their pocket generally speaking. IMO.

George


I agree with you totally. I've seen this exact scenario happen time and time again. Even in smaller regional events, some of the best players often go in halves on the tourney and will sometimes buy half of only one of the players in the calcutta if they deem it worthy by their tight ass pool player math. If both make it to the finals, which often happens in those Viking and Southeast tour events, you can bet your sweet ass that the results are already in before they even play.
 
Truman, YOU ARE DA MAN!
I like your style.

If you make it to the DCC, please iintroduce yourself as a friend of John Schmidt. (And NO, I don't need a stakehorse). :-)
Joey Aguzin

TrumanHW said:
John… it’s truly been too long.

I know the character witnesses have been abundant… but I fall in to a special category… let’s back up a few years… to when I was 23, a little more immature than I am now, knew nothing of pool, the spectrum of skill, nor how to analyze it. Put succinctly, I was green.

My name’s Truman, I play in Southern California, and I’m about as “C” a player gets. It was 1997, and I was staking this guy named Scotti Morgan, a bonefide goofball by any standard, but, quite a capable player at times nonetheless. Anyway, this guy I had never seen before offered Scotti the 7 ball. At the time, I was “well funded” and thought, “gotta see this.” After all, Dave Hemma had just tried to give this game to Scott and lost. Scotti won their first match up. We laughed as we drove home together feeling as though we stole the $200. The player, whom I later learned the name of, didn’t have much money on him, and swapped numbers with us so we could play again. Four days later on table 8 at hard times, I witnessed some of the best f*cking pool I had ever seen. I didn’t have to see much to know that it was THIS guy I wanted my money on. After all, Scotti is a goofball quite prone to finding a way to not take the money off the light.

Before I continue… I should be candid… I’m more than just an unusual guy – I’m a bit self-righteous, arrogant, and intelligent too. Thus, when I want to make my point, even if it’s not valid, it can still be a difficult argument for my opposition. Not that I don’t have good traits to counterbalance those, but those are some that can definitely annoy people.

For the next three years I staked John. In fact, it was with me, and my B.R. that John first went through Alabama. I had been involved in much of the action he took on over those years, and believe it not ladies and gentlemen, he normally invited me in on the SOFT action, and gave me his best and most candid advice when the action was tough, for instance, some of his earlier matches with Moro. In spite his advice, when I had the cash I normally wanted to experience the thrill of being involved.

I have handed John amounts of money I can’t recall, but certainly up to $5,000, he’s stayed at my house for however long he could tolerate me, and has taken down the cash more times when a critical shot was needed than any other player I have watched first hand. In fact, although this is unrelated, I think John is the most “get there guy” I have ever watched, a testament to not only his skill, but his heart and pressure management.

If ever there was a guy worthy of dumping… it’d be ME. And in all that time, winners and losers, it never even crossed my mind.

Although we live quite far apart, John will always be regarded as one of my most cherished friendships. He’s a GOOD GUY. He says what he believes, and his loyalty is almost self sacrificing… (I’m referencing his relationships with women, too).

I know my bias may be in question, but please let me assure you… my bias would become prejudice had I even a single instance to recall where this man’s integrity was questionable.

John, all the best from California…
 
Hey Truman,

If all of what you say is true, and I know it is, then you would be the last person he would dump. The people that dumper's dump are people that they don't know or like very well, obviously John liked and respected you very much.

Not saying that John is that type of guy, just clarifying why someone wouldn't dump someone like you if in the same position.
 
I Was Also There In Mobile.....

Ok...i am another witness to this whole escapade that has gone on for about 3 years now. I was one of the other people outside the poolroom in Mobile when this guy "Shane" made this proposal about John Schmidt dumping to Bruce. Yes, he did make this proposal, but I do want to repeat that we never heard the words come out of John's mouth. So to say for sure that he was "in on it" we can't. But, i would like to point out to John that something he said in his post isn't true. You said that you didn't know any of us that were there before this day....that's not true. There were 3 of us in Nashville that stepped in for you when that clown Billy Sikes wanted to fight you for whatever stupid reason it was. I know someone in Atlanta that John went in with a few times on games and he, along with others, have said that he is a very trustworthy guy. I watched him beat the 15 ball 1 pocket ghost in Atlanta getting 4 to 1 on the money...it was truly artistic.
-Southpaw
 
Talking About 2 Different Parallels...

Jam, a backer and someone that buys a player in a calcuttla are not even close to the same thing. A backer usually puts up all the money and gives the player a set % when he wins. And in some cases, backers pay expenses and so forth....A calcutta is set up so that the people who are watching can also join in and buy players and have a chance to make a little money themselves. If the player buys half of himself or herself, then it is a great way for them to make extra money themselves. Also, if a player loses money when being backed, he can always play again for that backer and make the money back. If he doesnt place in a calcutta, then the person that bought him usually has a slim chance of making that money back. If a player doesnt have enough faith in his game to buy half of himself, then he really has no right to ask for "jelly". But, it should be at the discretion of the "buyer" as to whether or not he decides to "throw him a bone".
 
Scott, the comparison is not golf vs pool....its the whole calcutta scenario in both sports. Also, when you win in vegas, yes you should tip the dealer, but the dealer doesnt have the option to go in halves with the players either. If they did, do you think they would? I just thinks its truly sad to see champions begging for "jelly". Especially when they didnt have the faith in themselves to buy half.
-Southpaw
 
Southpaw said:
Jam, a backer and someone that buys a player in a calcuttla are not even close to the same thing. A backer usually puts up all the money and gives the player a set % when he wins. And in some cases, backers pay expenses and so forth....A calcutta is set up so that the people who are watching can also join in and buy players and have a chance to make a little money themselves. If the player buys half of himself or herself, then it is a great way for them to make extra money themselves. Also, if a player loses money when being backed, he can always play again for that backer and make the money back. If he doesnt place in a calcutta, then the person that bought him usually has a slim chance of making that money back. If a player doesnt have enough faith in his game to buy half of himself, then he really has no right to ask for "jelly". But, it should be at the discretion of the "buyer" as to whether or not he decides to "throw him a bone".

I do know there is a difference between a calcutta and "walking stick" scenario. I was relaying the Monday-McCready match to illustrate how SOME players think about "tips," "jelly rolls," "bones" and/or "walking sticks," in general. :p

Let me share a little tale. Keith McCready gets a game with a local hotshot to play at a designated location for 300 a pop. A local stakehorse was there when the game was negotiated and wants to stake Keith, and so he agreed. Keith's opponent was also getting backed. The "agreement" was that Keith doesn't put up a quarter, but if he wins, he receives 50 percent. There were no travel expenditures involved, as this was local.

Each side made an appointment to play at a time certain a few days later. All the parties arrived. The local hotshot says to Keith, "500 a game. Right?" Keith looks over at his backer to see if it is okay to play for 500 a pop instead of the originally agreed-upon 300 a pop, and the backer agrees and told Keith to go for it.

When the dust settled, Keith is up five games, and the local hotshot unscrews his stick and quits. The backer then walks up to Keith and hands him approximately 25 percent of the winnings, stating that when the local hotshot raised the stakes to 500, he let two of his buddies take that additional 200 action, unbeknownst to Keith, and that Keith wasn't entitled to those monies.

After an elevated verbal exchange between Keith and this backer, the backer forked up a couple hundred more, but maintained that he was in the right and that Keith was not entitled to half of the winnings.

Some people sure do get funny when they're counting up that money, and the higher it is, the funnier they get.

JAM
 
JAM - the backer in your story was way out of line. He screwed Keith twice: he didn't discuss laying off $200 of the $500 a game bet with Keith before the match started; see, Keith is supposed to keep the $300 game cause he gets $1250 from the $2500 score whereas he only gets $750 in the $500 "lay-off" game; and then to short Keith on the split was jerky - the backer should have either bit the bullet and give Keith the 50% out of his own take or get the "lay-off backers" to cough up. If you're a backer and you've agreed on the chop, you're obligated - any deviations not agreed upon with the horse are on you. Keith was right to get upset.
 
??????

Well JAM, that is a pretty interesting story and I would have been upset too if I were Kieth, but that has absolutely nothing to do with a backer and a person that buys someone in a calcuttla. But, thanks for the story.
-Southpaw
 
Southpaw said:
Well JAM, that is a pretty interesting story and I would have been upset too if I were Kieth, but that has absolutely nothing to do with a backer and a person that buys someone in a calcuttla. But, thanks for the story.
-Southpaw

Southpaw, I relayed the story for one purpose, which was to illustrate how SOME players feel about "tips," "jelly rolls," "bones," "walking sticks," and the like. This would include "a backer and a person that buys someone in a calcutta."

The layperson may feel completely different about tipping a player for their fine performance. There is a great deal of disdain for players within the American pool culture that exists, and the "why" could be the subject of another thread.

However, some players do have a tendency to SHARE their newfound wealth when they chance upon a win in the form of a tip to those within their inner circle. This is why it is difficult, for lack of a better word, for some players to understand that there are calcutta winners who do not believe that the player is even entitled to a tip. End of story.

JAM
 
Just to ...

play Devil's advocate, and add another slant to this subject,
a few months ago, there was a 32 player tournament with $20
entry, a calcutta, added money, good payouts, 8 ball tournament.
Rotten Ralph, as he is known and a friend of mine, showed up for
the calcutta as usual. He along with a player in the tournament
financed a player into the tournament by paying his entry fee, and
paying for his quarters (about $30-40) in the tournament (bar tables).
(Now, it is customary around here when someone puts you into a
tournament, you split any prize money with them if you place).
Rotten Ralph also bought the player in the calcutta with his own money.

Long story short, the player won the tournament. He gives Rotten Ralph
nothing, gives the other player $5, and hightails it out of the pool room.
Rotten Ralph had planned on giving the player a $50 jelly out of the
calcutta money after he was suppose to get his share of the 1st place
money. The first place money was around $450. By screwing Rotten
Ralph and Allen (the other player putting in the part of the entry fee),
this player who won that tournament has done more damage to his
reputation than the net $150 it would have rightly cost him to be a
square guy. Nobody will ever support this player again because of him
screwing these guys around.

The player that won the tournament was really not a favorite to win,
and played 'over his head' and got some breaks in the tournament.
 
Answer This...

Do you bet on sporting events? If so, when you place a bet and win, do you send the team that won any money? Obviously not...because you risked the money and gambled on their performance....just like in a calcutta.
-Southpaw
 
Southpaw said:
Do you bet on sporting events? If so, when you place a bet and win, do you send the team that won any money? Obviously not...because you risked the money and gambled on their performance....just like in a calcutta.
-Southpaw
That team makes a helluva lot more money than pool players.
 
Do college teams get paid? Like I said in an earlier post....a calcutta is a good way for a player to make extra money if he buys himself or half of himself. Otherwise, he shouldn't expect "jelly"...that should be up to person that bought him. If a player does buy half of himself, and wins the tourney, should the person that was in halves with him give him "jelly"?
-Southpaw
 
Southpaw said:
Do college teams get paid? Like I said in an earlier post....a calcutta is a good way for a player to make extra money if he buys himself or half of himself. Otherwise, he shouldn't expect "jelly"...that should be up to person that bought him. If a player does buy half of himself, and wins the tourney, should the person that was in halves with him give him "jelly"?
-Southpaw
LOL, college kids get paid tuition, room, & board! Then under the table, they're given money, cars, clothes, concert tickets, and everything else imaginable....

As I said to TBA... this is a no win argument... I'm just going to agree to disagree with you. Have a Happy new year.
 
Timberly said:
LOL, college kids get paid tuition, room, & board! Then under the table, they're given money, cars, clothes, concert tickets, and everything else imaginable....

As I said to TBA... this is a no win argument... I'm just going to agree to disagree with you. Have a Happy new year.

I wasnt aware that every kid playing in college sports had their tuition paid for them and that they all live rent free. And if you want to talk about "under the table"...what if 2 pool players are in halves together in a tourney and they only end up buying 1 of themselves....then the final comes down to them and they dump so that the player they bought gets the most money. I guess the poor soul that bought the other player should still throw him some "jelly"....even though he was thrown in the well.
-Southpaw
 
Timberly said:
LOL, college kids get paid tuition, room, & board! Then under the table, they're given money, cars, clothes, concert tickets, and everything else imaginable....

As I said to TBA... this is a no win argument... I'm just going to agree to disagree with you. Have a Happy new year.
Does that include Lawn Darts?
 
Southpaw said:
I wasnt aware that every kid playing in college sports had their tuition paid for them and that they all live rent free. And if you want to talk about "under the table"...what if 2 pool players are in halves together in a tourney and they only end up buying 1 of themselves....then the final comes down to them and they dump so that the player they bought gets the most money. I guess the poor soul that bought the other player should still throw him some "jelly"....even though he was thrown in the well.
-Southpaw


Southpaw, you`re wasteing your breath. They will not see the light no matter what you say. The fact that some people can`t see the reasoning behind what you`re saying is a testimony to their thickness. Some people you just can`t reach.

George
 
Final thoughts ...

Team sports, or betting on a sporting event, away from
where you are located is an entirely different situation.
Pool is unique in its application of calcuttas and situations
that are encountered in doing so.

I have not been jellied much in 44 years of playing, and I am
an old school money player way before tournaments came along.
I never ever expect a jelly, and it is entirely up to the other
person, and would be of their own volition if they saw fit
to give me one. I have received a jelly from tournaments, usually
a token 'attaboy' one, and I have received jellies from people that
were sidebetting on me in a money match. The first one I received,
someone that I did not know, made $800 on me sidebetting in less
than 2 hours when I was playing a money match, and came up on
his own, and gave me a $300 jelly. That was when I first learned
what a jelly was, long time ago.
 
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