I want to clear something up!

[X Breaker]

I think it is a classy thing to give a player something when you win in a Calcutta; however, I also think it is not a classy thing to walk up to a winner of the Calcutta and demand a share.

I do not see how the wealth of the poolplayer has anything to do with whether the winner of the Calcutta is obligated to share his/her winnings or not, unless if we are talking about charity here.

Don't get me wrong, I like the stories that JAM was sharing about Keith and the others. It is nice to see players looking out for each other. We need that and it is good. I wish there were more players like that.

What I do not agree, is manupulative attitude that some players display when they win a tournament and demand a share of the Calcutta. When they do not get it, they try to make the guy look bad, and they would bad mouth the person as being a nit or whatever, I think that is wrong. It is for this reason that I have to respectfully disagree with the suggestion that a winner of a tournament should be entitled a share of the Calcutta no matter what.

Moreover, if I won a Calcutta, has anyone ever considered may be I really need the money, and I have taken a big risk to earn it? May be I really cannot afford to give any of it away?

Richard

 

[The Baby's Arm]

I think it is a classy thing to give a player something when you win in a Calcutta; however, I also think it is not a classy thing to walk up to a winner of the Calcutta and demand a share.

I do not see how the wealth of the poolplayer has anything to do with whether the winner of the Calcutta is obligated to share his/her winnings or not, unless if we are talking about charity here.

Don't get me wrong, I like the stories that JAM was sharing about Keith and the others. It is nice to see players looking out for each other. We need that and it is good. I wish there were more players like that.

What I do not agree, is manupulative attitude that some players display when they win a tournament and demand a share of the Calcutta. When they do not get it, they try to make the guy look bad, and they would bad mouth the person as being a nit or whatever, I think that is wrong. It is for this reason that I have to respectfully disagree with the suggestion that a winner of a tournament should be entitled a share of the Calcutta no matter what.

Moreover, if I won a Calcutta, has anyone ever considered may be I really need the money, and I have taken a big risk to earn it? May be I really cannot afford to give any of it away?

Richard

You are absolutely right. No player has ever offered my a "jelly" or a "walking stick" for coming to watch them play. I think this entire debate is more about charity than anything. I just fail to see where pool players deserve more charity than anyone else. Make a lifestyle change if you think you need or deserve a charity from someone because you played well in a particular tournament. "Good job, you played well, I made some money in the calcutta and you made some for winning the tournament", that is my take on the situation.

 

[X Breaker]

You are absolutely right. No player has ever offered my a "jelly" or a "walking stick" for coming to watch them play. I think this entire debate is more about charity than anything. I just fail to see where pool players deserve more charity than anyone else. Make a lifestyle change if you think you need or deserve a charity from someone because you played well in a particular tournament. "Good job, you played well, I made some money in the calcutta and you made some for winning the tournament", that is my take on the situation.

To avoid any misunderstanding, I am not saying if someone gives a player a share of the winnings then he/she is feeling sorry for the player.

I think it is a display of kindness when someone is willing to help a fellow pool player and is to be praised.

What I cannot agree is for a player to feel he/she has the right to demand a share, and to judge someone who for whatever reason decides not to share it.

 

[lamar25]

Baby's Arm,

I had Shannon in the same tournament calcutta (the one at Murphy's) and he did exactly the same thing as Tony after not buying half of himself. I did give Shannon a little "jelly", though. He needed a little at the time.

If I'm not mistaken, that is the night that the police stopped the tournament because of a law in Athens that does not allow pool after midnight on Sunday. It was one of Red Willis' tournaments, and everyone was trying to get him to rush the matches, but the police came in and stopped the action in the middle of the finals. It was noble of you to take a split. I think that Tony had to be beaten twice.

Mike

Hey Mike,
To set the stage.
At the "Southern Classic" held in Duluth, Ga. this past October where I met you.

I had S.M., S.D., L.N., D.B. & S.P. in the 9-ball event.
I cleared only $240 with a 1st & 2nd place finish.
S.M. & S.D. bought half.
At the payout table, I advised both players (SM 1st, SD 2nd), Due to my investment in this event & the amount I cleared, I could not provide a jelly role. I showed them all the numbers.
When I presented S.D. with his half of the auction, he asked, "What's this for". I advised him he had bought half. He then advised that the invester was someone else. He now requested amount invester payed.
By the way, the invester cleared more than I did.

"Have a nice day",
Lamar

 

[ironman]

Well JAM, that is a pretty interesting story and I would have been upset too if I were Kieth, but that has absolutely nothing to do with a backer and a person that buys someone in a calcuttla. But, thanks for the story.
-Southpaw

I agree, no relavance at all.

 

[ironman]

Southpaw, I relayed the story for one purpose, which was to illustrate how SOME players feel about "tips," "jelly rolls," "bones," "walking sticks," and the like. This would include "a backer and a person that buys someone in a calcutta."

The layperson may feel completely different about tipping a player for their fine performance. There is a great deal of disdain for players within the American pool culture that exists, and the "why" could be the subject of another thread.

However, some players do have a tendency to SHARE their newfound wealth when they chance upon a win in the form of a tip to those within their inner circle. This is why it is difficult, for lack of a better word, for some players to understand that there are calcutta winners who do not believe that the player is even entitled to a tip. End of story.

JAM

Still, action,backers, and calcuttas, are totally different isssues.

 

[JAM]

Still, action,backers, and calcuttas, are totally different isssues.

Once again, as I posted previously several times in this thread, I relayed the various incidents to illustrate how some pool players feel about certain money transactions, whether it be a bone, a walking stick, a tip and/or a jelly roll, whether it be action, backers and/or calcuttas.

JAM

 

[JimBo]

I don't have any ill feelings either. I said that in the reply to your pm. I will also take a lie detector test as will the rest of the witnesses, saying that your "friend" did propose the dump to us. Whether you were directly involved is inconsequential now ,?

I love stories that can't make any sense when you just stop to think about them. Say it were true, John and a friend want to dump 17 jellybeans with 5 strangers so we take the 17 and cut it 7 ways, around 2,500 each give or take, or John can play risk nothing and get 30-45% depending on his deal somewhere between 5,000 and 8,000 and keep a horse happy for future earnings. Hmmmmmmmmm sounds like easy math to me? What do I know?

Jim

 

[JAM]

I agree, no relavance at all.

And I'm going to add another story to the thread, though irrelevant to some, it is very relevant to others.

It's been almost 3 years to the day that we made the trek to Louisville to attend the action-friendly Derby City Classic, and there sure was not a shortage of players. Games, big and small, were in progress on the ground floor in every room, a railbird's delight.

That January, it was rumored that Eric Durbin had won over 50 very large, and the young Ohio roadster unwittingly walked the hallways of the Executive West Hotel with a bright target on his back. Every player who wanted action was keeping tabs on Eric's daily activities. Many folks who were present have since labeled that DCC as the "Durbin City Classic." He was knocking 'em all in the tub, left and right.

Those who have been to the DCC know that, at any given moment, a game of stakes could be in the making, and when the players begin to bark, a crowd inevitably draws near. One fine evening, Eric Durbin was approached by a legendary stakehorse, who happened to be a good friend of Keith McCready's.

The negotiations lasted over an hour, and the back-and-forths were funny. At one point, Shannon "The Cannon" Daulton couldn't take it anymore and stated so. He said, "I'll tell you what we'll do, since you guys can't get it together. Why don't we all post up 2 dimes apiece and play for it?! Then we'll see WHO the best 9-ball player in the land is." The commotion stopped, and there was a pregnant pause as all eyes turned to Shannon. "It's so doggone quiet in here, you could hear a field mouse peeing on a cotton ball," Shannon quipped. Everybody cracked up, and the negotiations continued.

Amar Kang, Flat-Nose, Shannon, Alex "The Lion" Pagulayan, and several other sharp-shooters were listening intently when Eric Durbin finally agreed to play Keith. The game was on, and folks jockeyed around to look for a good seat. After an awkward 30-minute wait, Durbin sent a messenger down to the lower level to inform the stakehorse that he had second thoughts and wasn't coming. Well, at this point, the nostrils of the players were wide open, and the barkfest began once more, only this time it was even louder.

By this time, it must have been about 4:30 in the morning. I was cold and tired, secretly hoping the game wouldn't come off. Amar Kang from California kept bellowing out: "I'll play anybody in here some 9-ball. Step up." My hope soon turned into anguish when Alex Pagulayan stepped up to the plate and gave the stakehorse a game he couldn't refuse, spotting Keith the 7 on the bar box. A backers' committee soon formed to support Alex, and then, of course, there were the side bets on the outcome. Another hour passed by while these negotiations went forth.

The match began and ended in what seemed to me like 10 minutes. Fast and furious, Alex made it to the finish line in record time. The way he was breaking and hitting 'em, he could have given Keith the 3 and out and still won. I couldn't wait to get out of there and go to sleep. Keith was as low as low could be as he unscrewed his stick. We didn't make it 20 steps outside of the room before several onlookers approached Keith and said, "That sure was quick, Keith. That was a business game, wasn't it, Keith?" Nobody felt as bad as Keith did that morning. He wanted to win that match with all his being. The long walk back to the room was horrible, and the "business game" comment was indeed very hurtful.

NOTA BENE: The above-referenced incident has NOTHING whatsoever to do with calcuttas, but it does address untruthful comments about dumping.

Here's a cute pic. Shannon Daulton got everybody's attention at the 2003 DCC barkfest. I'm sure he will be right in the trenches in Louisville at the 2006 DCC!

JAM

 

[JAM]

Another snapshot I took at the 2003 DCC of Keith and Alex Pagulayan. BTW, the railbirds, backers committee members, and folks who bet on the side enjoyed the sweet taste of victory. For his great performance on a field of green, Alex pocketed 7 percent of the total winnings.

JAM

 

[Mike Templeton]

Those who have been to the DCC know that, at any given moment, a game of stakes could be in the making, and when the players begin to bark, a crowd inevitably draws near. One fine evening, Eric Durbin was approached by a legendary stakehorse, who happened to be a good friend of Keith McCready's.

The negotiations lasted over an hour, and the back-and-forths were funny. At one point, Shannon "The Cannon" Daulton couldn't take it anymore and stated so. He said, "I'll tell you what we'll do, since you guys can't get it together. Why don't we all post up 2 dimes apiece and play for it?! Then we'll see WHO the best 9-ball player in the land is." The commotion stopped, and there was a pregnant pause as all eyes turned to Shannon. "It's so doggone quiet in here, you could hear a field mouse peeing on a cotton ball," Shannon quipped. Everybody cracked up, and the negotiations continued.

Amar Kang, Flat-Nose, Shannon, Alex "The Lion" Pagulayan, and several other sharp-shooters were listening intently when Eric Durbin finally agreed to play Keith. The game was on, and folks jockeyed around to look for a good seat. After an awkward 30-minute wait, Durbin sent a messenger down to the lower level to inform the stakehorse that he had second thoughts and wasn't coming. Well, at this point, the nostrils of the players were wide open, and the barkfest began once more, only this time it was even louder.

By this time, it must have been about 4:30 in the morning. I was cold and tired, secretly hoping the game wouldn't come off. Amar Kang from California kept bellowing out: "I'll play anybody in here some 9-ball. Step up." My hope soon turned into anguish when Alex Pagulayan stepped up to the plate and gave the stakehorse a game he couldn't refuse, spotting Keith the 7 on the bar box. A backers' committee soon formed to support Alex, and then, of course, there were the side bets on the outcome. Another hour passed by while these negotiations went forth.

The match began and ended in what seemed to me like 10 minutes. Fast and furious, Alex made it to the finish line in record time. The way he was breaking and hitting 'em, he could have given Keith the 3 and out and still won. I couldn't wait to get out of there and go to sleep. Keith was as low as low could be as he unscrewed his stick. We didn't make it 20 steps outside of the room before several onlookers approached Keith and said, "That sure was quick, Keith. That was a business game, wasn't it, Keith?" Nobody felt as bad as Keith did that morning. He wanted to win that match with all his being. The long walk back to the room was horrible, and the "business game" comment was indeed very hurtful.
Here's a cute pic. Shannon Daulton got everybody's attention at the 2003 DCC barkfest. I'm sure he will be right in the trenches in Louisville at the 2006 DCC!

JAM

Jam,

I was there for the entire barkfest, including Shannon's comment, and the match between Keith and Alex. The entire Derby that year was filled with non-stop matching up. I remember after one barking session, Alex finally threw his money and car keys on the table adding, "my car, too. It's worth $25,000. In fact, I'm just out of the side frame of the pic above, just to the right of where Keith is standing.

As hurtful as the comment was to Keith about dumping, anyone who knows anything about pool (especially on a bar table) could see that Alex was just breaking and running out. Hopefully Keith realizes that only someone ignorant of pool knowledge would think such a thing. I guess that being around for a while, and knowing players' histories helps also. I think that Burl G helped stake the game, and I know that he is a special person to Keith, and I know that while Keith would never lose purposefully to anyone, dumping Burl would be like betraying a family member. In fact, I know that Keith was very motivated to win that set. Alex just played flawlessly. Hopefully Keith has long forgotten that comment. His friends know him much better than that.

Sorry that Team McCready won't be able to make it to the Derby this year. Hopefully I will see you both soon.

Mike

 

[Ky Boy]

JAM,
I was there when all that was going on. Heard some things from the stakehorse that I wish I hadn't heard. Evidently he likes things the way he likes 'em!! But it was unfortunate that Keith lost that match. I could think of a whole other bunch of pro's that could have received even biggr spots than Keith a lost themselves. Alex was not only flawless but almost unbelievable. Win some, lose some. There is always another day!!

 

[The Baby's Arm]

I love stories that can't make any sense when you just stop to think about them. Say it were true, John and a friend want to dump 17 jellybeans with 5 strangers so we take the 17 and cut it 7 ways, around 2,500 each give or take, or John can play risk nothing and get 30-45% depending on his deal somewhere between 5,000 and 8,000 and keep a horse happy for future earnings. Hmmmmmmmmm sounds like easy math to me? What do I know?

Jim

You're right, it makes no sense. There were 4 others there that can verify it though. Also, most pool players can't do simple math, so there you have it.

 

[Southpaw]

I love stories that can't make any sense when you just stop to think about them. Say it were true, John and a friend want to dump 17 jellybeans with 5 strangers so we take the 17 and cut it 7 ways, around 2,500 each give or take, or John can play risk nothing and get 30-45% depending on his deal somewhere between 5,000 and 8,000 and keep a horse happy for future earnings. Hmmmmmmmmm sounds like easy math to me? What do I know?

Jim

What about this story doesnt make sense? I was there...maybe it is just shocking to some people that not eveyone is out for a "dump". Everyone of us that was there have backed players many times. You hear about people dumping all the time, yet pool players wonder why there is no money in this sport. Who knows...this clown "Shane" could have been the shadiest person in Mobile...we didnt know him. The point is.....we were not treacherous enough to find out if this proposal went any further that it did.

 

[JimBo]

What about this story doesnt make sense? I was there...maybe it is just shocking to some people that not eveyone is out for a "dump". Everyone of us that was there have backed players many times. You hear about people dumping all the time, yet pool players wonder why there is no money in this sport. Who knows...this clown "Shane" could have been the shadiest person in Mobile...we didnt know him. The point is.....we were not treacherous enough to find out if this proposal went any further that it did.

I guess you are one of the one's who can't do math LOL. Anyway you don't have to try to convince me that pool players are scum and would dump their mothers, I ain't drinking the cool aid. I've seen it, I've prolly been screwed by it, and sure as hell have seen others screwed by it. But in this case it just makes no sense, it's bad math and even though I'd never defend a pool player when it comes to shady deals I will say they do always try to scam the most cash out of a deal and in this case it just sounds like bad business. So please don't confuse me with others here who may want to ignore, forget, or cover up what *really* goes on I'm not one of them. I also agree that it's a major problem with people supporting the sport.

Jim

 

[ScottR]

I love stories that can't make any sense when you just stop to think about them. Say it were true, John and a friend want to dump 17 jellybeans with 5 strangers so we take the 17 and cut it 7 ways, around 2,500 each give or take, or John can play risk nothing and get 30-45% depending on his deal somewhere between 5,000 and 8,000 and keep a horse happy for future earnings. Hmmmmmmmmm sounds like easy math to me? What do I know?

Jim

Stop making sense, Jimbo. It's too confusing.

 

[Southpaw]

I guess you are one of the one's who can't do math LOL. Anyway you don't have to try to convince me that pool players are scum and would dump their mothers, I ain't drinking the cool aid. I've seen it, I've prolly been screwed by it, and sure as hell have seen others screwed by it. But in this case it just makes no sense, it's bad math and even though I'd never defend a pool player when it comes to shady deals I will say they do always try to scam the most cash out of a deal and in this case it just sounds like bad business. So please don't confuse me with others here who may want to ignore, forget, or cover up what *really* goes on I'm not one of them. I also agree that it's a major problem with people supporting the sport.

Jim

Ok....let me say this once again for the seats way in the back! This NEVER came out of John Shcmidts mouth. In my opinion, he is a world class pool player and would have absolutley no reason for suggesting this. This other guy though was probably some local scrub that doesnt even have his GED yet, so math isnt even an issue. He probably THOUGHT he saw an easy way to make some money. So, if you are as knowledgeable about pool and pool players as you say you are, this shouldnt be too tough for you to understand seeing as how there are people just like this guy in every pool room.

 

[catscradle]

.... Like I said, no player that I have ever bet on and lost has offered to give me back part of my losings and they shouldn't because it was my bet. Conversely when I win then they shouldn't ask for part of it because it was my bet.

You're exactly right. Does a jockey expect a tip from everybody who bet on his horse?