If you don't use the ghost ball or contact point as reference or fractional

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
how would you know a billiard to the second ball will send that ball to the pocket or might be short so you have to add some spin to the cue ball ?
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
how would you know a billiard to the second ball will send that ball to the pocket or might be short so you have to add some spin to the cue ball ?
Related to which, Ray Martin has said that ghost ball, as he presented it in his book, was not intended to be be an aiming method for simple shots. He uses it for close caroms.
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
how would you know a billiard to the second ball will send that ball to the pocket or might be short so you have to add some spin to the cue ball ?
Dalys billiard book would be a good start. Here is a chapter about it.

I find that ghost ball caroms aren't all that accurate over any significant distance. The ball tends to push forward a bit on the stuns, for instance. Whenever I try to use the "theoretical" aim for a certain carom, especially the ghost ball tangent, I tend to miss it, not widely but enough to miss a long carom that requires a certain hit. I do it all by feel, now.

I guess maybe you're asking the CTE'ers? Well, I hope they answer, because I've got no idea how they use the system for caroms? Maybe they just use feel?
 
Last edited:

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
You don’t need to visualize the ghost ball or contact point to see the tangent line - I just see the right angle from the OB>pocket line.

In fact, it’s the other way around for me - seeing the tangent line helps me see the ghost ball/contact point.

pj
chgo
 

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I learned this method from hours and hours and years and years of trial and error.

PACTEDSOBGITH

Point a cue this exact direction so object ball goes in the hole.

I give lessons on a first-come, first-served basis for a nominal fee.

Book your tickets to Hawaii.
 

Imotv8u

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I learned this method from hours and hours and years and years of trial and error.

PACTEDSOBGITH

Point a cue this exact direction so object ball goes in the hole.

I give lessons on a first-come, first-served basis for a nominal fee.

Book your tickets to Hawaii.
I point my cue nearly in the exact position, then I pivot to the exact position I want it to hit the cue ball. If anyone asks why I pivot, I tell them I’m using CTE aiming.
 

phreaticus

Well-known member
how would you know a billiard to the second ball will send that ball to the pocket or might be short so you have to add some spin to the cue ball ?

I notice many folks refer to Ghost Ball as if its the standard or default visual reference or aiming system that everyone should know. GB concepts are a bit mysterious and totally foreign to me; I have nothing against it, I’d just never heard of GB until I started digesting content on aiming, just like I hadn’t heard of HAMB, fractional aiming, parallel aiming, shaft aiming, CTE, TOI, etc... and now that I know what it is, visualizing an imaginary GB doesn’t feel natural or easy for me.

Before adopting more structured 3D ways to see the balls, I intuitively just stared at the shotline from the OB to the pocket and aimed at where that line “pierced” thru the other side of the OB. I always thought of that as “contact points” and just assumed everyone aimed this way. I feel like some people do that and call it GB, but I’m not sure...? I’ve tried literally visualizing an imaginary GB, but it feels weird and sort or useless to me.

Nowadays after about 1.5 yrs of working through and testing virtually all the major aiming systems, I’m a TOI guy with some CTE & shaft aiming thrown in. I really only look at the center or edge of the OB while aiming in standing PSR and when down on the shot.

Before my PSR, I usually (but not always) get behind the OB-Pocket shotline to glance at contact point. I think of these more like laser lines that poke thru the balls. In my old contact point (GB?) aiming days (for lack of better terms) I used to stare intensely at the balls trying to cement the actual contacts point into my brain, and hold on to them as I walk around & get down on the CB. Now, I just glance at them, to get an awareness of the angle to help assess which 1/8th fraction makes the shot and where the tangent line hits the rail for CB control. For me, this is like 100x easier and less “visually stressful”.

Interestingly, I’ve just recently noticed that I don’t feel the need to do this “shot/tangent line pre-scan” as much, and really only do it on tricky shots, thin cuts, tight clearances, etc. I’ve considered forcing myself to do it every time, as part of my PSR, but not doing it isn’t hindering me and I enjoy the efficiency boost, so I continue doing if and when I feel like it. For caroms & combos I definitely need to do this contact/tangent line check.

As for knowing if/when to use English, I always assess any shot (direct, bank, carom, combo, kick) based on vertical center CB, natural angles and medium speed as the baseline. Depending on the table variables, shot and CB path requirements, I’ll adjust aim, speed and/or side spin (in that order of priority) as needed.

i’m not sure if any of this actually addressed the OP’s question - but its an interesting topic to me, so I thought I’d try to actually describe what I do.

I’m sort of the FNG around here, but it seems like many folks get too hung up on a certain terminology or description of how some of these aiming systems work. Seems like any relatively high level player in subconscious dead punch zone isn’t really intellectually processing any of these details, and folks who have developed high level games by feel/HAMB are maybe subconsciously doing some of the visual referencing tricks that many of the “systems” guys describe with nerdy terms/concepts. I personally think of systems as “learning & consistency frameworks” that through repetition gets pressed down into the subconcious layer (so called muscle memory) which can be brought up to the conscious level more explicitly during PSR if/when needed. But what do I know...?

Peace & love
 
Last edited:

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
I notice many folks refer to Ghost Ball as if its the standard or default visual reference or aiming system that everyone should know. GB concepts are a bit mysterious and totally foreign to me; I have nothing against it, I’d just never heard of GB until I started digesting content on aiming, just like I hadn’t heard of HAMB, fractional aiming, parallel aiming, shaft aiming, CTE, TOI, etc... and now that I know what it is, visualizing an imaginary GB doesn’t feel natural or easy for me.

Before adopting more structured 3D ways to see the balls, I intuitively just stared at the shotline from the OB to the pocket and aimed at where that line “pierced” thru the other side of the OB. I always thought of that as “contact points” and just assumed everyone aimed this way. I feel like some people do that and call it GB, but I’m not sure...? I’ve tried literally visualizing an imaginary GB, but it feels weird and sort or useless to me.

Nowadays after about 1.5 yrs of working through and testing virtually all the major aiming systems, I’m a TOI guy with some CTE & shaft aiming thrown in. I really only look at the center or edge of the OB while aiming in standing PSR and when down on the shot.

Before my PSR, I usually (but not always) get behind the OB-Pocket shotline to glance at contact point. I think of these more like laser lines that poke thru the balls. In my old contact point (GB?) aiming days (for lack of better terms) I used to stare intensely at the balls trying to cement the actual contacts point into my brain, and hold to them as I walk around & get down on the CB. Now, I just glance at them, to get an awareness of the angle to help assess which 1/8th fraction makes the shot and where the tangent line hits the rail for CB control. For me, this is like 100x easier and less “visually stressful”.

Interestingly, I’ve just recently noticed that I don’t feel the need to do this “shot/tangent line pre-scan” as much, and really only do it on tricky shots, thin cuts, tight clearances, etc. I’ve considered forcing myself to do it every time, as part of my PSR, but not doing it isn’t hindering me and I enjoy the efficiency boost, so I continue doing if and when I feel like it, which is slowly waning.

I definitely need to do this contact line check when aiming caroms & combos. But I do it all the same as described above.

As for knowing if/when to use English, I always assess any shot (direct, bank, carom, combo, kick) based on vertical center CB, natural angles and medium speed as the baseline. Depending on the table variables, shot and CB path requirements, I’ll adjust either aim, speed and side spin (in that order of priority) as needed.

i’m not sure if any of this actually addressed the OP’s question - but its an interesting topic to me, so I thought I’d try to actually describe what I do.

I’m sort of the FNG around here, but it seems like many folks get too hung up on a certain terminology or description of how some of these aiming systems work. Seems like any relatively high level player in subconscious dead punch zone isn’t really intellectually processing any of these details, and folks who developed high level games by feel/HAMB are maybe subconsciously doing some of the visual referencing tricks that many of the “systems” guys describe with nerdy terms/concepts. I personally think of them as “learning & consistency framework tools” that through repetition get pressed down into the subconcious layer, which can be brought up to conscious level more explicitly during PSR if/when needed. But what do I know...?

Peace & love
That does not explain aiming a billiard or carom.
 

phreaticus

Well-known member
That does not explain aiming a billiard or carom.
I mentioned above how I optionally look at contact points before my actual aiming. I personally sort of map these to 1/8 ball fractions, which I then aim at using my own blended flavor of TOI/CTE/SVB stuff. I specifically mentioned that I definitely have do this “contact/tangent line pre check” for trickier shots like carom and combos. Most of the time, its just a light awareness of the angles vs staring at the CP’s, but on combos and caroms I definitely nail down shot/tangent line CP’s on all the required balls. I suppose one could say on complex, high precison shots I rely more on CP’s than ball fractions (I personally consider all CTE/TOI stuff to be variations & derivatives of fractional aiming). Is that “allowed”, lol?

Thats the best I can do, sorry of its not useful for you brother. How do you aim caroms and what is the point of this thread?

Cheers
 
Last edited:

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
I mentioned above how I optionally look at what most folks call contact points on the balls, before my actual aiming. I sort of map these to 1/8 ball fractions, which I then aim at using my own blended flavor of TOI/CTE/SVB stuff. I specifically mentioned that I have do this “contact point pre check” for trickier shots like carom and combos. Most of the time, its just a light awareness of the angles vs staring at the CP’s, but on combos and caroms I definitely nail down shotline CP’s on all the required balls. I suppose one could say on complex, high precison shots I rely more on CP’s than ball fractions (I personally consider CTE and TOI stuff to be variations & derivatives of fractional aiming). Is that “allowed”, lol?

Thats the best I can do, sorry of its not useful for you brother. How do you aim caroms?

Cheers
Tangent line and checking the contact point or volume of the second ball
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
Not sure why or when, but at some point in my development as a player I made decisions not to bother chasing skills in disciplines I either didn't see high value in or relied on variables out of my control. To that end, I don't play banks or caroms at a high level. I can do both better than the average bear, but those types of shots are not 'automatic' for me.

All that said, I have some decent CB control and don't stress too hard about caroms. I simply gauge the 90 degree tangent from the OB and manlipulate from there. Carom angles are altered with merely top or bottom english. If for some goofy reason the OB still needs to be thrown in with some level of CB siding, then just add enough so it makes it to the the target ball. Honestly though, if a shot required that much work to drop then you really need to reassess the strategy, imo
 

boogieman

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
Interestingly, I’ve just recently noticed that I don’t feel the need to do this “shot/tangent line pre-scan” as much, and really only do it on tricky shots, thin cuts, tight clearances, etc. I’ve considered forcing myself to do it every time, as part of my PSR, but not doing it isn’t hindering me and I enjoy the efficiency boost, so I continue doing if and when I feel like it, which is slowly waning.
Make sure if you're on a different size or brand of table you still do it. That's where not doing it falls apart.
 

phreaticus

Well-known member
Tangent line and checking the contact point or volume of the second ball
Ok, so it sounds like we do the exact same thing.

Not sure why you didn’t understand my first answer and I guess I’m not sure what the point of your thread is. Looks like I’m the only idiot that uses some systems stuff and took some time to try to respond... I’ll head back to the real world now.

Cheers,

p
 

Ratta

Hearing the balls.....
Silver Member
I use the Ghost Ball just at for example a very first lesson-
Personally the Ghostball i use as a helper for caroms, position play ( tangent-line etc) - And.... also as a reference for the "overall perception" for a shot, before i go down. It s just a part from all. I never aim at a ghost ball. But I know guys, who are able to visualise it- i m not able to do it :)
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
I use the Ghost Ball just at for example a very first lesson-
Personally the Ghostball i use as a helper for caroms, position play ( tangent-line etc) - And.... also as a reference for the "overall perception" for a shot, before i go down. It s just a part from all. I never aim at a ghost ball. But I know guys, who are able to visualise it- i m not able to do it :)
You know anyone who visualizes it as "lens overlap" as Bob Jewett puts it ?
I think it's pretty powerful visualization tool/process.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
Dr Dave has some aiming systems for caroms. I have a way to aim them that works fairly well. I don't use cte for caroms. Dave Segal told me a way to use cte for caroms but I forgot what he said.
 

Ratta

Hearing the balls.....
Silver Member
You know anyone who visualizes it as "lens overlap" as Bob Jewett puts it ?
I think it's pretty powerful visualization tool/process.
Joey: Even if I am maybe goin off-topic; From my expirience (and therefore ofc my own opinion based on expirience), many students/players are using stuff without being able to explain it really.
Visualisation is the most powerful skill you need ( of course next to be able to send Whitey from A to B in a repeatable manner). HOw you can visualise, is based on your personal ability and furthermore your knowledge.

As you stated yourself, it is a pretty powerful visualisation tool or process.
I decided somewhen to get myself out of this "Kindergarten War"- where nowadays it s just about "i am right- you are wrong" which is ending always in nothing but a way to hurt someone personally as bad as possible. That s my serious opinion. And i don t want to waste to much energy in this negative bullshit.

Over the years I learnt a lot- and from many different people here on the forum- who are "from both worlds" (lol).
Stan for very sure has widened my horizon in some directions- Ron Vitello was a genius, too. Randy Goettlicher is a treasure as well- Bob Jewett is around forever and never found something where I could "no" about sth he would post.
I could go on much more- 8 Pack for example is an extremley good player- and he has tons of knowledge, too. Imo one of the maybe most underestimated here on the forum. At a time, where i started to learn more about 90/90 for example, 8Pack was the one, who made it click all of a sudden.
Not to forget Dave Segal-


I would say:T o have a look on the other side is a SKILL- and trying to understand stuff to earn knowledge- and use it for myself to not just widen my horizon of knowledge- also the ability to communicate better.

From my subjective point of view I have built my opinoins and my behaviour in every direction in my "Pool Life". And to be sceptical is important- as well as being willing to learn.


And at least: There is no magic pill ( as you show up in your signature :) ) - and no holy gral. You need to find out what works for yourself. And then trust it. That s what is one of the most important things in playing pool- to trust yourself.

Have a smooth stroke everyone,

play pool- not war :)
 

phreaticus

Well-known member
Joey: Even if I am maybe goin off-topic; From my expirience (and therefore ofc my own opinion based on expirience), many students/players are using stuff without being able to explain it really.
Visualisation is the most powerful skill you need ( of course next to be able to send Whitey from A to B in a repeatable manner). HOw you can visualise, is based on your personal ability and furthermore your knowledge.

As you stated yourself, it is a pretty powerful visualisation tool or process.
I decided somewhen to get myself out of this "Kindergarten War"- where nowadays it s just about "i am right- you are wrong" which is ending always in nothing but a way to hurt someone personally as bad as possible. That s my serious opinion. And i don t want to waste to much energy in this negative bullshit.

Over the years I learnt a lot- and from many different people here on the forum- who are "from both worlds" (lol).
Stan for very sure has widened my horizon in some directions- Ron Vitello was a genius, too. Randy Goettlicher is a treasure as well- Bob Jewett is around forever and never found something where I could "no" about sth he would post.
I could go on much more- 8 Pack for example is an extremley good player- and he has tons of knowledge, too. Imo one of the maybe most underestimated here on the forum. At a time, where i started to learn more about 90/90 for example, 8Pack was the one, who made it click all of a sudden.
Not to forget Dave Segal-


I would say:T o have a look on the other side is a SKILL- and trying to understand stuff to earn knowledge- and use it for myself to not just widen my horizon of knowledge- also the ability to communicate better.

From my subjective point of view I have built my opinoins and my behaviour in every direction in my "Pool Life". And to be sceptical is important- as well as being willing to learn.


And at least: There is no magic pill ( as you show up in your signature :) ) - and no holy gral. You need to find out what works for yourself. And then trust it. That s what is one of the most important things in playing pool- to trust yourself.

Have a smooth stroke everyone,

play pool- not war :)

in my brief time here, this is one of the finest posts I’ve seen. Thx for sharing your thoughts.

✌️
 
Top