If you foul, but your opponent doesn't see it, should you call it on yourself?

Its very simple,being honest has nothing to do with complying to a rule of any game but everything to do with that persons moral compass on
or off the pool table.
If it takes rules to make people honest, then to me ,they weren't that
honest to begin with.
 
ChrisBanks said:
Should I call a foul on my very self?

Artie has an interesting opinion on this, which I will paste here if I can find it again.
Click to expand...

If there was an umpire in the game who didn't see the foul then YES call the foul. I have lost big finals by calling fouls on myself.

If there was no umpire in the game then YES call the foul.

However, years ago I was taught by a national player who told me if the umpire doesn't see the foul then you shouldn't call it. Ironically he won the fairest and best player for that years nationals.

It just depends if you can live with being a cheat......not my cup of tea
 
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rrick33 said:
How many times have you seen a receiver trap a ball against the ground as he slid in for the catch and then pretend it was a fair catch?......about a million times!

I have never seen a football player call a foul on himself.....in fact, I often see players attempt to influence the opinions of refs by using the same arm signals the refs use when making a call.
Click to expand...

rrick,

Intersting that you bring this up, as I was thinking about it last night. When I was playing flag football in organized adult leagues with officals & referees, on several occassions, I have gotten up & told the official that I did not catch the ball after he had either already ruled it a catch or was in the process of ruling it a catch. In the interest of fair play, in all but one case that I can remember, the offical went along with me and my admission.

In court, you are not required to testify against yourself, but you are not prohibited from doing so. In fact you can simply plead guilty. That in & of itself is testifying against your self.

This thread will not close the gap between the extreme opinions on the opposite ends. It may only sway some in the middle to move toward one side or the other.

In football, the players know even if a flag is not thrown. One earns one's reputation. You are either respected or you're not. What you say about dishonest players is certainly true. However I have seen honest players that get up & throw the ball back towards out of bounds as an indicator that they are saying that they did not catch the ball. However it is up to the official to make his own determination.

Vince Lombardi did not say what most people think he said regarding winning. The press took liberties & mis-quoted him. He said so... many, many, times. What he actually said was, 'Winning isn't everthing, but it's the only thing worth striving for.'

I'll never cheapen my wins by taking an unfair advantage of my opponent.

That being said the question comes down to the difference of definitions of what is fair & unfair. Perhaps a new thread is in order, maybe in the NPR section.

Regards,
 
Scsuxci....you stated [I"]Its very simple,being honest has nothing to do with complying to a rule of any game but everything to do with that persons moral compass on
or off the pool table.
If it takes rules to make people honest, then to me ,they weren't that
honest to begin with." [/I]

The fact that you can use the term "moral compass" shows that it migrates based on your perspective. As such it cannot be universally interpreted.

All sports have rules. It has nothing to do with defining honesty but rather a mutual understanding of expectations or regulations....which can be universally interpreted.
 
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rrick33 said:
[I"]Its very simple,being honest has nothing to do with complying to a rule of any game but everything to do with that persons moral compass on
or off the pool table.
If it takes rules to make people honest, then to me ,they weren't that
honest to begin with." [/I]

The fact that you can use the term "moral compass" suggests the fact that it migrates based on your perspective. As such it cannot be universally interpreted.

All sports have rules. It has nothing to do with defining honesty but rather a mutual understanding of expectations or regulations....which can be universally interpreted.
Click to expand...
People who interpret understanding a rule may debate it depending
on which side of the fence there on.Being honest has nothing to
do with implying a rule but more on someones character trait.

Obviously everyone makes mistakes,some don't know they've made
them and others who do.
If your honest,its a easy choice.When your honest,you never have to
defend your character.
 
I have an interesting question for all those hung up on a sense of "honor" regarding this issue.

Let's suppose you're on the hill and the winner gets $1000 cash. Or it's an APA match and the winner goes to Vegas.

You win the game but moments after the victory, a good friend/teammate approaches you and informs you that you committed an unintentional foul while shooting the money ball that you were unaware of and would surely have given your opponent the victory had he called you on it. You look at the rule book and sure enough, you commited a foul.

Do you concede the victory and award the $1000 to your opponent?
Do you concede the APA match to your opponents despite the pleas of your teamates.

For those of you who say that you would concede the victory because your "honor" demands it....Please send $1000 to P.O. Box 71082, Richmond, Va. 23255...and I'll say 200 hail Mary's to reserect your soul.

Easy financing terms available with good credit.
 
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rrick33 said:
I have an interesting question for all those hung up on a sense of "honor" regarding this issue.

Let's suppose you're on the hill and the winner gets $1000 cash. Or it's an APA match and the winner goes to Vegas.

You win the game but moments after the victory, a good friend/teammate approaches you and informs you that you committed an unintentional foul while shooting the money ball that you were unaware of and would surely have given your opponent the victory had he called you on it. You look at the rule book and sure enough, you commited a foul.

Do you concede the victory and award the $1000 to your opponent?
Do you concede the APA match to your opponents despite the pleas of your teamates.

For those of you who say that you would concede the victory because your "honor" demands it....Please send $1000 to P.O. Box 71082, Richmond, Va. 23255...and I'll say 200 hail Mary's to reserect your soul.
Click to expand...

Ahhhhhh,

It's about money & religion or lack there of. I don't think it is Mary that is responsible for resurrecting 'souls'.

How does one interpret, 'Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor'.

To answer your hypothetical question, yes, I admit my foul & convince my team mates that I did not truly win & therefore 'we' did not truly win. Our opponents truly won 'fairly' & therefore deserve the prize & the recognition.

Regards,
 
English...I like your sense of humor.

For you I'll go as low as $50 a month at 5%.

By the way...what if you were unable to sway your teammates into forfieting?
 
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rrick33 said:
English...I like your sense of humor.

For you I'll go as low as $50 a month at 5%.

By the way...what if you were unable to sway your teammates into forfieting?
Click to expand...

Rick,

I doubt that that would happen. Choosing your team mates is very important, especially your life mate. However if so, that would make doing the right thing a bit unpleasant. However, I would report my foul to the officials in charge. Pool is a bit different than the other major team sports. My team is dependent on my personal performance in a one on one match with in the realm of the game. I would be forfeiting my match not the team effort. If the team could not win without my undeserved match 'win' then they don't deserve the 'win'. The other team deserves the win. Once I report my foul, it is out of my hands, but I would let the other team know that I consider them to be the winners.

Regards,
 
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English.....I hear what you're saying. Just the same, you better keep my address on file. There aren't many "Saints" who play pool.
 
rrick33 said:
English.....I hear what you're saying. Just the same, you better keep my address on file. There aren't many "Saints" who play pool.
Click to expand...

Rick,

I don't think it will be your prayers to Mary that will get me squared up with the 'Ultimate Referee'.

And....you're wrong. A lot of the New Orleans 'Saints' play pool.

Regards,
 
Anyone playing me for money except in one hole

Is allowed just so it is not every inning. I looked at a buddy playing for very little and said I must be tripping balls, I see the Cueball moving. It is not staying in one place. He said I touched it but I just shoot and I replied if you are playing me for money and he was I allow it. It is the least I can do. You got it. Laughed and won.
Nick :)
 
This is bs.

rrick33 said:
I have an interesting question for all those hung up on a sense of "honor" regarding this issue.

Let's suppose you're on the hill and the winner gets $1000 cash. Or it's an APA match and the winner goes to Vegas.

You win the game but moments after the victory, a good friend/teammate approaches you and informs you that you committed an unintentional foul while shooting the money ball that you were unaware of and would surely have given your opponent the victory had he called you on it. You look at the rule book and sure enough, you commited a foul.

Do you concede the victory and award the $1000 to your opponent?
Do you concede the APA match to your opponents despite the pleas of your teamates.

For those of you who say that you would concede the victory because your "honor" demands it....Please send $1000 to P.O. Box 71082, Richmond, Va. 23255...and I'll say 200 hail Mary's to reserect your soul.

Easy financing terms available with good credit.
Click to expand...


If you foul a ball you feel it. Every time.
Nick :)
 
rrick33 said:
I have an interesting question for all those hung up on a sense of "honor" regarding this issue.

Let's suppose you're on the hill and the winner gets $1000 cash. Or it's an APA match and the winner goes to Vegas.

You win the game but moments after the victory, a good friend/teammate approaches you and informs you that you committed an unintentional foul while shooting the money ball that you were unaware of and would surely have given your opponent the victory had he called you on it. You look at the rule book and sure enough, you commited a foul.

Do you concede the victory and award the $1000 to your opponent?
Do you concede the APA match to your opponents despite the pleas of your teamates.
Click to expand...
An interesting scenario.....

First of all, I'd let results stand...whether I was the winner or the loser.
Secondly, why would the friend/teammate say anything after the fact...
..speak up at the time or hold your peace.
Thirdly, I would do something in compensation for the one who was wronged.

I was in a strange situation once....4 of us were side-betting on a game.
The man lost and paid off to us and the player.
The balls were racked for the next game but this man went to the toilet.
When he came back, he paid us off again and then started playing.
I saw that the side bettors and the player were delighted to get paid
twice.....so I held my peace.

...but over the next month, I did that man a lot of action favors, which
resulted in him winning a lot more money than he lost that day.

We're all human, life isn't perfect....
...sometimes you just do what you can.
 
Constant reminder

TheThaiger said:
A more interesting question is "have you ever fouled and not declared it"?

Let he who is without sin...
Click to expand...


I did. Maybe 10 years ago. Indiscernible soft double hit on cb. Opponent watching, but didn't see it. I won. But I lost more than I won. It didn't feel good afterwards.

I didn't like the feeling. I won't do that again.


...related thought...when I see the opponent foul, I don't call it...I wait to see what he does, or doesn't do about it. Either action tells a lot about about the opponent's approach to the game.

...situational ethics get tricky.....there are no absolutes in life....reasons and rationalizations get in the way...none of us are perfect.


...the thief should not have taken my equipment. I should have been watching more closely....which trumps which?

....my morality is superior to yours, is a slippery slope. IMHO, my morality is my measure of how I act...not necessarily yours.
 
rrick33 said:
I have an interesting question for all those hung up on a sense of "honor" regarding this issue.

Let's suppose you're on the hill and the winner gets $1000 cash. Or it's an APA match and the winner goes to Vegas.

You win the game but moments after the victory, a good friend/teammate approaches you and informs you that you committed an unintentional foul while shooting the money ball that you were unaware of and would surely have given your opponent the victory had he called you on it. You look at the rule book and sure enough, you commited a foul.

Do you concede the victory and award the $1000 to your opponent?
Do you concede the APA match to your opponents despite the pleas of your teamates.

For those of you who say that you would concede the victory because your "honor" demands it....Please send $1000 to P.O. Box 71082, Richmond, Va. 23255...and I'll say 200 hail Mary's to reserect your soul.

Easy financing terms available with good credit.
Click to expand...
Your clouding the
real picture by adding prizes at the end of the rainbow.
If prizes and trips can determine how honest somebody might be,is
an issue in itself.
Being an honest person is not based on when its convenient or gainful.

Thats the problem with honesty,we try an create scenarios to excuse
our lack of better judgement so we can feel better at the end of the
day for making the wrong choice.

Is it really that hard to be honest?
 
BeiberLvr said:
There's a difference though in not calling a foul on yourself when only you know you fouled in a match without a referee.

You do realize that, right?
Click to expand...

Sure I do. And I would have nothing but respect for anyone who would call the foul on themselves.

My only point on that part of the discussion is that as an observer of human nature for TOO many years...I guarantee you that at least SOME (I won't quote a percentage) of the good people who say they would ALWAYS call a foul on themselves would not IF there was enough money at stake.


I'm just sayin'.

EagleMan
 
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