If you foul, but your opponent doesn't see it, should you call it on yourself?

Calling fouls

I think that far too many people responding to this post have taken a very narrow perspective on the question... especially those who say you should call the foul on yourself "everytime", "definitely", "without exception"..."the only ethical thing to do"..."It's the right thing".

Quite simply, there are exceptions to every rule. Nothing is definite and as far as ethics and doing the "right" thing....well these are very subjective attitudes/ terms that have different meanings to different people.

The choices we make in life are often situational. The way we interpret those situations influence our behavior.

When it comes to human behavior, there's no such thing as "definitely", "without exception" or "everytime"...these are just expressions used to drive a point home but have no foundation in reality.


When it comes to my personal perspective....

If I hold myself accountable to be at the table, pay attention and participate....then I also hold my opponent to the same standard.

I shouldn't have to call a foul on myself because if my opponent is really competing, he's observing every shot I take and will obviously see the foul or at least ask if it was a foul should it seem unclear.

If my opponent is just standing around and not paying attention to the game then he's not competing and what does it matter whether I fouled or not. If he's not competing, then he's just wasting my time.

Do you think the antelope calls a foul on the lion because the lion didn't tell the antelope he was on the menu? Competition can be brutal. It's important to keep your wits about you and pay attention.

If you didn't catch a foul, it's not your opponents fault and as far as I'm concerned, should they fail to inform you, their integrity is quite in tact. It's the person who wasn't paying attention who is ultimately to blame. It's far too easy to blame our opponent for our own short commings.

Try to ask the distracted antelope about integrity right before the lion pounces. Do you really think it was ever an issue?
 
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I think that far too many people responding to this post have taken a very narrow perspective on the question... especially those who say you should call the foul on yourself "everytime", "definitely", "without exception"..."the only ethical thing to do"..."It's the right thing".

Quite simply, there are exceptions to every rule of thumb. Nothing is definite and as far as ethics and doing the "right" thing....well these are very subjective attitudes/ terms that have different meanings to different people.

The choices we make in life are often situational. The way we interpret those situations influence our behavior.

When it comes to human behavior, there's no such thing as "definitely", "without exception" or "everytime"...these are just expressions used to drive a point home but have no foundation in reality.


When it comes to my personal perspective....

If I hold myself accountable to be at the table, pay attention and participate....then I also hold my opponent to the same standard.

I shouldn't have to call a foul on myself because if my opponent is really competing, he's observing every shot I take and will obviously see the foul or at least ask if it was a foul should it seem unclear.

If my opponent is just standing around and not paying attention to the game then he's not competing and what does it matter whether I fouled or not. If he's not competing, then he's just wasting my time.

Do you think the antelope calls a foul on the lion because the lion didn't tell the antelope he was on the menu? Competion can be brutal. It's important to keep your wits about you and pay attention.

If you didn't catch a foul, it's not your opponents fault and as far as I'm concerned, should they fail to inform you, their integrity is quite in tact. It's the person who wasn't paying attention who is ultimately to blame. It's far too easy to blame our opponent for our own short commings.

Try to ask the antelope about integrity right before the lion pounces. Do you really think it was ever an issue?

What he said.

(-:
 
As to now, I've only raised the question. I haven't supplied my own interpretation yet. For all you know, I am on your side in this issue!
 
second that

I think that far too many people responding to this post have taken a very narrow perspective on the question... especially those who say you should call the foul on yourself "everytime", "definitely", "without exception"..."the only ethical thing to do"..."It's the right thing".

Quite simply, there are exceptions to every rule. Nothing is definite and as far as ethics and doing the "right" thing....well these are very subjective attitudes/ terms that have different meanings to different people.

The choices we make in life are often situational. The way we interpret those situations influence our behavior.

When it comes to human behavior, there's no such thing as "definitely", "without exception" or "everytime"...these are just expressions used to drive a point home but have no foundation in reality.


When it comes to my personal perspective....

If I hold myself accountable to be at the table, pay attention and participate....then I also hold my opponent to the same standard.

I shouldn't have to call a foul on myself because if my opponent is really competing, he's observing every shot I take and will obviously see the foul or at least ask if it was a foul should it seem unclear.

If my opponent is just standing around and not paying attention to the game then he's not competing and what does it matter whether I fouled or not. If he's not competing, then he's just wasting my time.

Do you think the antelope calls a foul on the lion because the lion didn't tell the antelope he was on the menu? Competion can be brutal. It's important to keep your wits about you and pay attention.

If you didn't catch a foul, it's not your opponents fault and as far as I'm concerned, should they fail to inform you, their integrity is quite in tact. It's the person who wasn't paying attention who is ultimately to blame. It's far too easy to blame our opponent for our own short commings.

Try to ask the distracted antelope about integrity right before the lion pounces. Do you really think it was ever an issue?

I like the way this guy thinks
 
As to now, I've only raised the question. I haven't supplied my own interpretation yet. For all you know, I am on your side in this issue!

I've often found many, many people here prefer to sneer at others' instead of learning to read properly. Generally, they're the types who bang on and on about the 'good ole days' and decline of standards, whilst offering no hard proof for their ludicrous assumptions. Don't sweat it.
 
Of course you call your fouls, I believe its a good lesson. You will remember that shot the rest of the game and potentially even further down the road, lesson learned. I play with some guys that if the nine gets hung up in the pocket and it becomes an easy combo we will just spot the nine to push the run out. Taking the easy way out will get you nowhere, put in work. :D

Money however is a TOTALLY different issue.........your money, so pay attention.
 
:deadhorse:

This is one that comes up about bi-yearly on here. The answers always seem to run about 50%. The ones that say YES almost always mention "integrity" while the ones that say NO say that the opponent "should be paying attention".

Maniac (has integrity!!!)

I think it runs more like 90%-10%, not 50/50.
Most of us on here are interested in winning legitimately.

The other 10% like to play blame-the-victim by saying it's their job to watch.
If they get up from their shot and notice their case and break cue are missing, and they ask me what happened to them, I'll just shrug and say "hey, it's your job to watch your shit. Not mine."
 
I think it runs more like 90%-10%, not 50/50.
Most of us on here are interested in winning legitimately.

The other 10% like to play blame-the-victim by saying it's their job to watch.

In a later post in this thread I stated that it appears that posters have changed their stances somewhat pertaining to this subject.

I remember a thread on this subject came up a year or so ago. At the beginning of that thread, most posters said they would call a foul on themselves. But as the thread got longer, more posters came out of the woodwork and said no, it was their opponents job to pay attention. I seem to remember (but I could be mistaken) that by the time the thread ended, opinions were running about 50/50.

Maybe in this thread those same posters have yet to come out of the woodwork, or after mulling over it for a year or so, have simply changed their stances and now have come to their senses about what the right thing to do is.

Maniac (has ALWAYS called fouls on himself, under ANY circumstance)
 
agree with rrick33.Could barely read his post because of the glare coming off all the halos and the draftiness from all the angel wings flapping in my face.To all the "Saints" posting here I admire your integrity but your "integrity" goes flying off the table when you in the same statement deface those who don't assimilate your ideals.The winner is not always the best player but perhaps the smarter of the two or perhaps the most observant. Calling a foul on myself is like helping my opponent defeat me. If my opponent needs more help than their handicap to beat me I'm not interested. I didn't find anything in my book about calling my own fouls. Should I?? should I not??? BOTTOM LINE MY SELF RIGHTEOUS FRIENDS IS THIS>>>>>ITS MY Option and I sleep like a baby. If and when this happens in my man cave while playing with friends and/or newbies I will tell them after the fact that they needed to be more observant and watch out all the time. A far better lesson than "OH! Mommy so sorry little honey boo boo here you can have BIH.(Did you hear that God??That oughtta be worth another string in my harp)It is not dishonest to not call my own fouls and doing so doesn't help my opponent one iota.If they fail to call a foul then NO FOUL was committed.I guess from now on I will never call another foul on my opponents because why the hell should I? They will just have to call them on themselves and if I get my ass kicked I'll peacfully go home and not judge their integrity:rolleyes::rolleyes:
I'm done here I have to start to prepare tomorrows sermon entitled"Officer my left rear tire is 4 lbs. under inflated please take me to the firing squad"
 
I think it runs more like 90%-10%, not 50/50.
Most of us on here are interested in winning legitimately.

The other 10% like to play blame-the-victim by saying it's their job to watch.
If they get up from their shot and notice their case and break cue are missing, and they ask me what happened to them, I'll just shrug and say "hey, it's your job to watch your shit. Not mine."

That's a bogus analogy. In a match, opponents are SUPPOSED to be watching the game...not their cue cases and break cues.

(-:
 
The sets of rules I have seen define those things that are fouls and what happens after a foul is committed.

The rules do not say it is a foul only if the opponent or referee is paying attention and calls it. Sometimes a foul cannot be known to anyone but the player.

So if a player knowingly commits a foul and allows the game to continue as if he did not commit a foul, he is violating the rules of the game. That is dishonest/cheating.
 
I was playing in a tournament last year and it was a race to five. I was on the hill-zip and in complete control. I was aiming at kicking at a ball when my opponent's cell phone rang. I stopped aiming as the phone rang about four times. He then answered the call, turned his back to the table, walked about five steps away and proceeded to have a short conversation. After he walked away and was chatting on the phone I proceeded with the shot and completely missed the ball. I just went and sat down and didn't say a word. When he came back I told him it was his shot. I didn't have another open table or legitimate chance to get out from that moment on and lost the match. This is not in basic character for me and I cannot explain why I did it that one time. But I do know what happened next. Karma was immediate.

JC
 
The sets of rules I have seen define those things that are fouls and what happens after a foul is committed.

The rules do not say it is a foul only if the opponent or referee is paying attention and calls it. Sometimes a foul cannot be known to anyone but the player.

So if a player knowingly commits a foul and allows the game to continue as if he did not commit a foul, he is violating the rules of the game. That is dishonest/cheating.

I respectully disagree. The World Pool Association Standard Rules in fact DO state that there is no foul unless it is called by the referee. And the JUDGMENT of the referee is not subject to appeal...only his interpretation of a rule can be appealed.

There is no rule I could find...although it is possible I missed it...requiring a player to call a foul on him/herself.

Even under the unsportsmanlike conduct rule, there is no such requirement.

The rule provides...

6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct
The normal penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct is the same as for a serious foul, but the referee may impose a penalty depending on his judgment of the conduct. Among other penalties possible are a warning; a standard-foul penalty, which will count as part of a three-foul sequence if applicable; a serious-foul penalty; loss of a rack, set or match; ejection from the competition possibly with forfeiture of all prizes, trophies and standings points.
Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly. It includes
(a) distracting the opponent;
(b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;
(c) playing a shot by intentionally miscuing;
(d) continuing to play after a foul has been called or play has been suspended;
(e) practicing during a match;
(f) marking the table;
(g) delay of the game; and
(h) using equipment inappropriately.

http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/the_rules_of_play#6.16

The section in bold is the only thing that MIGHT apply but does NOT in the case of self-called fouls. If the player is the only one who KNOWS that the foul was committed then not calling CANNOT POSSIBLY bring disrepute upon the game...for obvious reasons.

My conclusion is that...at least in refereed matches...there is NO PROVISION for self-called fouls and in fact, the referee would not permit such a foul.

Now an OPPONENT can ask for reconsideration of a non-called foul and could point out his reasons for believeing a foul was committed BUT NOT THE PLAYER whose turn it is at the table.

And as I stated in another post, there could be times when declaring a foul on him/herself...could be to the player's ADVANTAGE.

For clarity...I have NO problem of any kind in league or gambling matches if a player wants to "do the right thing" and call a self-foul. FINE WITH ME. All I am saying is that in refereed matches, I can't find any rule that would permit such a thing and in non-refereed matches, the incoming player should CERTAINLY have the right to DECLINE the foul call.

And I suggest that with SIZE LARGE money on the line...not nearly everyone would be quite so noble as they might be in their internet forum posts. (-:

FINALLY....games are to be governed by RULES and NOT by various people's often VERY different notions about "integrity", "morality", "nobility" etc.

I'm just sayin'.

(-:

EagleMan
 
Should I call a foul on my very self?

Artie has an interesting opinion on this, which I will paste here if I can find it again.

Seriously no offense but it shouldn't even be asked.... Of course you should let your opponent know, I call it and tell them ball in hand before they can even call me out on it.
 
I was playing in a tournament last year and it was a race to five. I was on the hill-zip and in complete control. I was aiming at kicking at a ball when my opponent's cell phone rang. I stopped aiming as the phone rang about four times. He then answered the call, turned his back to the table, walked about five steps away and proceeded to have a short conversation. After he walked away and was chatting on the phone I proceeded with the shot and completely missed the ball. I just went and sat down and didn't say a word. When he came back I told him it was his shot. I didn't have another open table or legitimate chance to get out from that moment on and lost the match. This is not in basic character for me and I cannot explain why I did it that one time. But I do know what happened next. Karma was immediate.

JC

What ever you felt was RIGHT to do...was exactly what you should have done. But by RULE, your opponent committed a FOUL by creating a distraction during your inning which, in a referred game, could have resulted in a "loss of game" penalty in which case you would have won the match.

Clearly, you HAD to be distracted by all that and had you even consulted with a ref or TD, you might have been able to settle down a little and would have made the shot. Who knows?

But the point is that a foul WAS committed...and for all you know, the opponent COULD have texted a friend asking them to call for the PURPOSE of distracting you!!!! I've seen hundreds of very conveninet coughs...sneezes...knocked over drinks and pool cues in similar circumstances.

And if anyone thinks that players don't somtimes use "accomplices" to do the sharking...they have lessons to learn!!!

(-:
 
Seriously no offense but it shouldn't even be asked.... Of course you should let your opponent know, I call it and tell them ball in hand before they can even call me out on it.

Seriously no offesne to you either...honest. But just let me ask...What is the highest sum of money you were gambling for when you ever called a foul on yourself????...and...What percentage of your monthly income would that sum have amounted to at the time?????

I'm just sayin'. (-:

Eagleman
 
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