Illustration of BHE....

[Colin Colenso]

Its my experience that LD shafts pivot around the joint. So best to use a combination of shift and pivot. About 50% of each. ie to get 1tip...50% shift, 50% bhe.

Colin...what do you use? You did a great job explaining BHE in the video you made. But I would like to know what you actually USE when you play.

There are great players who pocket balls and have no idea how they do it and there are scientists who can explain the physics of whats going on but cant play so well. I consider you to be one of the few who can shoot well AND explain well the art of shooting and the science behind what you do and say.

Happy New Year

NE,
I use 100% BHE and I make all adjustments systematically by 2 methods.

1. Adjustment of bridge length to counter sqwerve. (Squirt and Swerve).
2. Adjustment of aim to counter throw.

For 1, I used simple equation to determine the length of bridge. I multiply the distance between CB and OB in feet by a speed factor of 1 to 5. 5 is slow, 1 is slamming. This result. Lets say (4x3) = 12 is multiplied by a stickiness factor (usually around 0.3) and gives me a total of 3.6 inches. So I add 3.6 inches to my cue's pure pivot point which is 9.5 inches. So I bridge for the shot at approx 13 inches.

I also have an adjustment if the shot is being hit high or low. For high shots I increase the bridge up to 2 inches, for low, I shorten it by an inch.

For 2, I have charts of throw for all ranges of speed spin and cut angles that I developed in cooperation with Dr. Dave. Most the time I can guess the throw aim adjustment but I can use the charts to check certain shots and to know the adjustments more precisely. Once you get a feel for how speed, spin and cut angles affect throw, you can guess most shots pretty well.

I'm still refining it in parts and will be putting a DVD together to explain the system in its entirety, but I'm looking for a better filming venue for my table at the moment. Preferably a new apartment so I can bang and shoot at my convenience.

Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

He clearly doesn't use BHE for the shot before, and I don't think you can see whether or not he does on this shot. I'm skeptical - why doesn't he use it on all sidespin shots (like the one before)?

pj
chgo

I did notice that Patrick which makes me think that his pivoting shot was possibly not a conscious effort to apply BHE, but maybe it is just that he has learned that he can play that particular shot effectively using a back hand pivot after initial aim.

I wouldn't be surprised if he lined it up with a touch of outside before he pivoted for more outside during his backswing.

Colin

 

[Jaden]

I was reading back through this thread and wanted to take some time to clarify...

BHE is best used with a bridge position that is at the cue's natural pivot point. The natural pivot point is the place on the cue where after starting with an initial aimline of no english, a pivot will amount to canceling out squirt.

Many people think of BHE as different things, but really BHE is exactly that. BACK HAND ENGLISH. The concept that allows back hand english can be thought of differently. But for it to be back hand english, you have to adjust using only th e back hand.

That would mean that it is bridge dependent.

Now in the video when I'm talking about it being centered around the bridge, I'm referencing the specific argument between me and Patrick where I was trying to diagram why there is a different effective offset on a shaft with less deflection and Patrick was commenting that the bridge location is incidental.

I made the video to counter that comment. The bridge location isn't incidental, it is necessary for the bridge location to be at the cue's natural pivot point for it to truly be BHE.

Now BHE really doesn't necesarily have anything to do with the original conversation and question as to whether the effective offset is different between a standard shaft and a LD shaft; however, BHE IS a great illustrator of why it is necessary to use the same bridge location (distance from the tip that the bridge is held, not the location on the felt that the bridge is held) when comparing aimlines for the same shot between LD shafts and standard shafts.

As pointed out by other posters, BHE can be used for LD shafts by rotating the cue on it's natural pivot point and then sliding the bridge forward along that line. If that is done however, you will end up with a bridge location similar to what I showed in my drawn diagram.

In my diagram in the other thread, The shot is the same. You will likely get the same amount of spin and the shot will go to the same location, but as is indicated in the diagram, the aimline is different.

The AIMLINE, not the CB travel path. The aimline is based on bridge position. The squirt is different because it is a LD shaft and it squirts less.

So to be perfectly clear, BHE is based on the cues natural pivot point, the actual aimline is based on the travel path of the cueball, but the effective aimline is based on bridge position.

So when comparing tip offset and spin/speed ratios, it is necessary to use the effective aimlines for comparison and not the actual aimline.

Hope this clears it up a little and doesn't juts add confusion....

Jaden

 

[Colin Colenso]

BHE is best used with a bridge position that is at the cue's natural pivot point. The natural pivot point is the place on the cue where after starting with an initial aimline of no english, a pivot will amount to canceling out squirt.


Jaden

Jaden, my testing indicates that this natural or 'pure' pivot point as I termed it (which doesn't invlove swerve) occurs at a distance along my shaft that is shorter than the distance I pivot at for 95% of shots. eg. It's about 9.5 inches on my cue. I'll only use this for very close shots or near maximum power shots.

My more typical shots, which have significant squerve I bridge at what has been called the 'effective pivot point' which is from this 9.5 inches up to around 13.5 inches for most shots. 13.5 represents a slowish shot travelling 5 feet to the OB.

I use a test shooting an OB that is straight in line with the corner pocket, about 6 inches out. Place the CB about 5 feet back from this ball in a straight line. Slam it in using BHE with various bridge lengths hitting middle height. I mean slam it coz you don't want any swerve. This will tell you your pure pivot point, or close enough to it.

Anything that requires a longer bridge pivot has some degree of swerve and hence requires an effective pivot point estimation.

Interested in your feedback.

Colin

 

[Jaden]

When I say the natural pivot point....

Jaden, my testing indicates that this natural or 'pure' pivot point as I termed it (which doesn't invlove swerve) occurs at a distance along my shaft that is shorter than the distance I pivot at for 95% of shots. eg. It's about 9.5 inches on my cue. I'll only use this for very close shots or near maximum power shots.

My more typical shots, which have significant squerve I bridge at what has been called the 'effective pivot point' which is from this 9.5 inches up to around 13.5 inches for most shots. 13.5 represents a slowish shot travelling 5 feet to the OB.

I use a test shooting an OB that is straight in line with the corner pocket, about 6 inches out. Place the CB about 5 feet back from this ball in a straight line. Slam it in using BHE with various bridge lengths hitting middle height. I mean slam it coz you don't want any swerve. This will tell you your pure pivot point, or close enough to it.

Anything that requires a longer bridge pivot has some degree of swerve and hence requires an effective pivot point estimation.

Interested in your feedback.

Colin

I haven't gotten as deep in the weeds on this, but I will try what you are saying here.

When I say the natural pivot point, what I mean is for the average speed shot, or say 95% of all shots, the point on the cue that the pivot equates to sending the OB in the generally same direction say within 1/2 a degree to 1 degree in either direction of the initial aimline. Even on long shots this would equate to making the ball in most situations and on most tables.

My table has four inch corner pockets and I make the majority of shots this way. I always line up dead center without any english and then pivot at my bridge. I suppose that I could be subconsciously adjusting bridge position based on experience though. I will have to do some tests to find out if this is what I'm doing.

I remember when Efren and Alex had explained the concept to me and me thinking, "there's no way this could actually work, he must be doing some type of subconscious adjustment".

Hey, you know what, I really don't care if I am doing some kind of subconscious adjustment, it works and I usually can do exactly what I want with the ball.

I will use some of your tests though to make sure that what I think is happening is Actually happening and I'll give you feed back on it.

I am more of a mind at using what works best and while I am interested in the nitty gritty and will test this on my table when I get off work tonight, I usually am speaking in generalities.

Jaden

p.s. I've never done tests to find the actual pivot point on my cue. I've just adjusted to what works the best on the given situation and just kind of programmed it into my head so to speak. I don't think I alter my bridge length, but I'll have to check to be sure.

 

[Cornerman]

My more typical shots, which have significant squerve I bridge at what has been called the 'effective pivot point' which is from this 9.5 inches up to around 13.5 inches for most shots. 13.5 represents a slowish shot travelling 5 feet to the OB.

Probably going to completely confuse things, but for me, "effective squirt" or "effective pivot point" is specifically what I come up with for the Aim & Pivot test, which is a combination of squirt and throw, not squirt and swerve. Therefore, all shots for me using the Effective Pivot Point are based off of the squirt/throw combination.

That being said, the Effective Pivot Point is still longer than the "Pure Pivot Point."

Fred <~~~ no easy combined word for squirt and throw... squrow.. thrirt...

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Probably going to completely confuse things, but for me, "effective squirt" or "effective pivot point" is specifically what I come up with for the Aim & Pivot test, which is a combination of squirt and throw, not squirt and swerve. Therefore, all shots for me using the Effective Pivot Point are based off of the squirt/throw combination.

That being said, the Effective Pivot Point is still longer than the "Pure Pivot Point."

Fred <~~~ no easy combined word for squirt and throw... squrow.. thrirt...

I think they're essentially the same definition, since they both refer to the pivot point that's effective for the shot at hand, taking into account whatever variables exist in the shot.

An Aim & Pivot test shot is hit hard enough to eliminate swerve, so its effective pivot point only compensates for squirt and throw. Most gametime shots involve all three: squirt, swerve and throw, and for those shots effective pivot points need to take all three variables into account.

Effective pivot points also implicitly take into account related variables such as speed, distance, butt elevation and ball/cloth condition.

pj
chgo

 

[Colin Colenso]

Probably going to completely confuse things, but for me, "effective squirt" or "effective pivot point" is specifically what I come up with for the Aim & Pivot test, which is a combination of squirt and throw, not squirt and swerve. Therefore, all shots for me using the Effective Pivot Point are based off of the squirt/throw combination.

That being said, the Effective Pivot Point is still longer than the "Pure Pivot Point."

Fred <~~~ no easy combined word for squirt and throw... squrow.. thrirt...

Fred,
I almost put in a note next to my explanation of 'effective pivot point' that you have a different and earlier definition.

At one stage I tried to make an adjustment system for determining effective pivot points that account for throw but I found, to be accurate and very useful, it would become too complex and confusing. Perhaps some rules of thumb could be useful though.

Throw is dependent on speed, degree of spin and cut angle, so coming up with a conversion from these 3 variable into a pivot point adjustment is very difficult, especially if it is trying to also deal with sometimes opposing effects by spin and speed on swerve.

Instead, I moved the throw adjustment to an adjustment of the 'Initial Aim Line' which really means you are now aiming to where you want to hit the OB by aiming to hit the point of a pocket for example.

Then my effective pivot point is purely a pure pivot + swerve adjustment.

Colin - Just to clarify.

 

[Colin Colenso]

I haven't gotten as deep in the weeds on this, but I will try what you are saying here.

When I say the natural pivot point, what I mean is for the average speed shot, or say 95% of all shots, the point on the cue that the pivot equates to sending the OB in the generally same direction say within 1/2 a degree to 1 degree in either direction of the initial aimline. Even on long shots this would equate to making the ball in most situations and on most tables.

My table has four inch corner pockets and I make the majority of shots this way. I always line up dead center without any english and then pivot at my bridge. I suppose that I could be subconsciously adjusting bridge position based on experience though. I will have to do some tests to find out if this is what I'm doing.

I remember when Efren and Alex had explained the concept to me and me thinking, "there's no way this could actually work, he must be doing some type of subconscious adjustment".

Hey, you know what, I really don't care if I am doing some kind of subconscious adjustment, it works and I usually can do exactly what I want with the ball.

I will use some of your tests though to make sure that what I think is happening is Actually happening and I'll give you feed back on it.

I am more of a mind at using what works best and while I am interested in the nitty gritty and will test this on my table when I get off work tonight, I usually am speaking in generalities.

Jaden

p.s. I've never done tests to find the actual pivot point on my cue. I've just adjusted to what works the best on the given situation and just kind of programmed it into my head so to speak. I don't think I alter my bridge length, but I'll have to check to be sure.

Jaden,
That is pretty much what I was thinking when I did the mobile phone BHE video. I thought my pivot point was around 13-14 inches because that was working for the typical shots I was playing.

And often throw would correct errors, especially using Inside English and when the CB is closer to the OB, when there is less swerve, the error is reduced because of the small travel distance so we often get away with the longer than necessary pivot.

Try playing some shots varying the speed and trying both inside and outside english and you should get a feel for how this variation in required pivot length works. That's only gonna make the system more powerful for you I think.

Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

I think they're essentially the same definition, since they both refer to the pivot point that's effective for the shot at hand, taking into account whatever variables exist in the shot.

An Aim & Pivot test shot is hit hard enough to eliminate swerve, so its effective pivot point only compensates for squirt and throw. Most gametime shots involve all three: squirt, swerve and throw, and for those shots effective pivot points need to take all three variables into account.

Effective pivot points also implicitly take into account related variables such as speed, distance, butt elevation and ball/cloth condition.

pj
chgo

I think they are fundamentally very different pj.

Say you're shooting a shot with 6 foot CB-OB separartion. The Adjustment for throw will be miniscule but the adjustment for swerve will be quite significant for medium and low speeds. Even at firm speeds it will be more than any throw adjustment needed.

However, with the CB and OB seperated by only one foot, and with the OB needing to travel 6 feet, the throw adjustment is considerable on certain shots while swerve will be a less significant contributor in making adjustments.

I know that generally speaking, we might say that effective pivot points could account for one or the other or both, but I think in an attempt to systematize any particular BHE method, we need to be very mindful of how we compensate for these two contrasting effects.

Colin

 

[JB Cases]

BHE is best used with a bridge position that is at the cue's natural pivot point. The natural pivot point is the place on the cue where after starting with an initial aimline of no english, a pivot will amount to canceling out squirt.

Many people think of BHE as different things, but really BHE is exactly that. BACK HAND ENGLISH. The concept that allows back hand english can be thought of differently. But for it to be back hand english, you have to adjust using only th e back hand.

That would mean that it is bridge dependent.

Now in the video when I'm talking about it being centered around the bridge, I'm referencing the specific argument between me and Patrick where I was trying to diagram why there is a different effective offset on a shaft with less deflection and Patrick was commenting that the bridge location is incidental.

I made the video to counter that comment. The bridge location isn't incidental, it is necessary for the bridge location to be at the cue's natural pivot point for it to truly be BHE.

Now BHE really doesn't necesarily have anything to do with the original conversation and question as to whether the effective offset is different between a standard shaft and a LD shaft; however, BHE IS a great illustrator of why it is necessary to use the same bridge location (distance from the tip that the bridge is held, not the location on the felt that the bridge is held) when comparing aimlines for the same shot between LD shafts and standard shafts.

As pointed out by other posters, BHE can be used for LD shafts by rotating the cue on it's natural pivot point and then sliding the bridge forward along that line. If that is done however, you will end up with a bridge location similar to what I showed in my drawn diagram.

In my diagram in the other thread, The shot is the same. You will likely get the same amount of spin and the shot will go to the same location, but as is indicated in the diagram, the aimline is different.

The AIMLINE, not the CB travel path. The aimline is based on bridge position. The squirt is different because it is a LD shaft and it squirts less.

So to be perfectly clear, BHE is based on the cues natural pivot point, the actual aimline is based on the travel path of the cueball, but the effective aimline is based on bridge position.

So when comparing tip offset and spin/speed ratios, it is necessary to use the effective aimlines for comparison and not the actual aimline.

Hope this clears it up a little and doesn't juts add confusion....

Jaden

It adds confusion. BHE is the application of spin by moving the grip hand so that the cue pivots around a fulcrum created by the bridge hand.

The successful use of BHE is NOT dependent on how near or far away the bridge hand is from the cue ball. It is NOT dependent on the cue's pivot point.

Back Hand English does not CANCEL OUT squirt. All Backhand does is put the cue on EXACTLY the SAME stick line as it would be IF you use Shifted English to apply spin.

Shifted English (formerly and improperly called Parallel English) is where you shift your entire body to the stick line rather than JUST moving the grip hand. Thus when you get into the shooting position your cue stick is addressing the cueball in EXACTLY the same way and YOU are guessing how much to adjust for squirt by deciding what angle to approach the cue ball at.

What Back Hand English does do is ALLOW the player to choose from ALL AVAILABLE ways to hit the cue ball on a level stroke from ONE bridge position. In this way the player can line up with center ball and be sure that they are on the correct aiming line.

I personally think that this also allows players to make better choices about how much spin to use and thus it feels like you can do much much more with BHE than with SE.

It is much easier to simply move my grip hand a little to apply one or two tip's of english rather than to have to adjust my whole stance.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Back Hand English does not CANCEL OUT squirt. All Backhand does is put the cue on EXACTLY the SAME stick line as it would be IF you use Shifted English to apply spin.

I think that's a bit back to front. If we get the the same place we would have using shifted english than we have effectively cancelled out the effects of squirt, swerve and throw.

And another thing, a player can align with shifted english with any bridge length, so there is not an exact position that we are replicating. We are replicating 1 particular alignment for a particular shot with a particular bridge length.

You can't use BHE from all bridge lengths for all shots unless you incorporate some FHE.

Colin

 

[Flex]

In my opinion because of how well BHE works, it is better NOT to use LD shafts and to find one with a pivot point that is closest to your actual bridge length.

JAden.

I use BHE on some shots. It doesn't matter if the shaft is an LD shaft, ala OB-1 or Predator or others. It's all about knowing how each specific shaft plays. Plus, when slowing down the shot, as is often necessary, the compensation for swerve and so on can be a bear. Plus the effects of cue ball spin and the attendant throw on the object ball need to be dealt with.

On some shots when finding the aim line I use a combination of CTE with an air pivot and a specific stroke to hopefully get the results I desire. Complicated? Yes, but it works.

Flex

 

[Thunderball]

I gotta say this discussion is confusing the hell outta this non BHE guy.

The video was useful Jaden,simple and well done.I had to see one earlier to fully grasp the concept a few montha ago.I had not heard of BHE before reading of it here so it was a real eye opener to see it in action.Yours demonstrated it well too.

SO...having gotten the "concept" down...bare in mind I'm ignorant to the ways of the BHE besides dicussions here and yours and one other video....When I miss should a blame:

a)poor pivot accuracy.
b)Poor bridge length.
c)Stroke
d)idiocy (my current favorite)
e)squirt
f)swerve
g)squerve??
h)just bad aim
i) high deflection shaft
j)LD shaft.
ECT ECT ECT....

There seem to many many more things "different" then just shooting a tip of left or right on a shot.Don't all the new varibles mean more opportunites for failure? (read miss)...
And is it worth the effort? Whats the upside considering the effort I guy like me would have to put in to retrain the brain?
If the guys who use it can't agree on how/why it works,how the hell am I gonna figure it out lol?

All serious questions actually,so please don't think I'm just yanking chains.

(rep your way Jaden for the effort,thanks)

 

[Colin Colenso]

a)poor pivot accuracy.
b)Poor bridge length.
c)Stroke
d)idiocy (my current favorite)
e)squirt
f)swerve
g)squerve??
h)just bad aim
i) high deflection shaft
j)LD shaft.
ECT ECT ECT....

There seem to many many more things "different" then just shooting a tip of left or right on a shot.Don't all the new varibles mean more opportunites for failure?

I think all those variables can go wrong using english the traditional way too. (Except pivot, which does tend to take a couple of practice sessions to get down. Many players find it very hard to set their bridge without moving it during the pivot).

btw: squerve is just another way of talking about the combined effect of squirt and swerve.

 

[Flex]

I gotta say this discussion is confusing the hell outta this non BHE guy.

The video was useful Jaden,simple and well done.I had to see one earlier to fully grasp the concept a few montha ago.I had not heard of BHE before reading of it here so it was a real eye opener to see it in action.Yours demonstrated it well too.

SO...having gotten the "concept" down...bare in mind I'm ignorant to the ways of the BHE besides dicussions here and yours and one other video....When I miss should a blame:

a)poor pivot accuracy.
b)Poor bridge length.
c)Stroke
d)idiocy (my current favorite)
e)squirt
f)swerve
g)squerve??
h)just bad aim
i) high deflection shaft
j)LD shaft.
ECT ECT ECT....

There seem to many many more things "different" then just shooting a tip of left or right on a shot.Don't all the new varibles mean more opportunites for failure? (read miss)...
And is it worth the effort? Whats the upside considering the effort I guy like me would have to put in to retrain the brain?
If the guys who use it can't agree on how/why it works,how the hell am I gonna figure it out lol?

All serious questions actually,so please don't think I'm just yanking chains.

(rep your way Jaden for the effort,thanks)

What I suggest is that you go to the table and set up a simple cut shot, where the object ball is about 1 diamond from the corner pocket, and you have about a 15 degree cut shot and the cue ball is about a diamond away from the object ball, and then just frickin' experiment away with the stuff.

First find the natural aim line for potting the ball with a soft rolling shot, use that line for your subsequent experiments. Then shoot that shot but with 1 1/2 tips follow, at different speeds to see what happens to the object ball and how the cue ball reacts after contact with the object ball, where the cue ball goes and so on. Do the same for varying degrees of draw. That should be an eye opener right off the bat.

Then play around with varying degrees of english using BHE to apply the spin and note where the object ball goes and what happens to the cue ball after contact with the object ball. Shorten up your bridge, lengthen it, shoot the shots softly, medium speed, hard and so on.

What you want to do is get comfortable with the way this new knowledge can benefit your game, and it will.

I suggest you shoot all these shots with the cue ball and object ball in exactly the same place for each shot, so that the only variables are how you shot the shot, not where the balls are. Once you are comfortable with potting the ball and are confident you can pull the shot off in a game, then move the object and cue balls to slightly different locations and repeat this process.

What should happen is you will find that there are some adjustments that may become necessary to make the ball and move the cue ball.

Is all this worthwhile?

IMHO, it's not only worthwhile, but invaluable.

Good shooting!

Flex

P.S. By the way, my suggestions about how to figure out how all this works will perhaps change your perceptions about english and it's effects. BHE works with any cue and any shaft. You just need to learn how your shaft and tip and stroke and all the other things work together to make it happen on the table. Good luck.

 

[Thunderball]

Thanks Flex for the well thought out reply. I'll revisit this again on the table with a renewed vigilence considering.Seriously.

My first few attempts were not half hearted,but they were short lived.I'll redouble the effort as they say.Thanks again.

Now if I may,...and I realize the answer may (probably will )be wordier then the question so I apologise in advance....

Can someone qualify,quantify,otherwise explain why this is true:

IMHO, it's not only worthwhile, but invaluable.

I'm not doubting it is,but I'm openly wondering "how come?".

Rep your way too Flex...many thanks.

 

[Thunderball]

Whoops,sorry Colin for missing your answer to my post.

I think all those variables can go wrong using english the traditional way too.

That said,the upside is what?
I think the answer to my question will help me,at least,further grasp the concept on a more "aha!!" level.

Thanks again.

 

[Flex]

Thanks Flex for the well thought out reply. I'll revisit this again on the table with a renewed vigilence considering.Seriously.

My first few attempts were not half hearted,but they were short lived.I'll redouble the effort as they say.Thanks again.

Now if I may,...and I realize the answer may (probably will )be wordier then the question so I apologise in advance....

Can someone qualify,quantify,otherwise explain why this is true:


I'm not doubting it is,but I'm openly wondering "how come?".

Rep your way too Flex...many thanks.

It's invaluable because you will find you have a number of options that you didn't have before, and there are times when you are playing by feel, and your mind might just be a bit muddled (sure does happen to me) and if you are comfortable with that way of shooting with BHE it could well get you out of a sticky jam. Another reason it's invaluable is it's so doggone easy to use.

Hope that helps.

Flex

 

[duckie]

It's invaluable because you will find you have a number of options that you didn't have before, and there are times when you are playing by feel, and your mind might just be a bit muddled (sure does happen to me) and if you are comfortable with that way of shooting with BHE it could well get you out of a sticky jam. Another reason it's invaluable is it's so doggone easy to use.

Hope that helps.

Flex

It isn't BHE that gets you out of sticky situation, its the use of english. How it gets applied doesn't matter