Good post. I hope somebody with the IPT sees the stuff we post here and make some adjustments in there thinking and maybe they can make a comeback. I hope they can resurface with some big tournaments again.
IMO the IPT was right on 8-ball.
- Thread starter Celtic
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Good post. I hope somebody with the IPT sees the stuff we post here and make some adjustments in there thinking and maybe they can make a comeback. I hope they can resurface with some big tournaments again.
I think you're wrong about the bangers learning the proper rules. They've been told countless times that the rules they use are wrong, but they don't care. They consider the rules they play by to be the "right" rules and they have no desire to change them. They consider their rules more challenging in that they have to "call" everything or it doesn't count. And, in my experience, you can't convince them otherwise!
Most people know the game of 8 ball, yes. But, do they give a damn about pool on tv or tournaments or head to head matches for money? No.
I'm afraid even this turn will not help.
Most people know the game of 8 ball, yes. But, do they give a damn about pool on tv or tournaments or head to head matches for money? No.
I'm afraid even this turn will not help.
I wholeheartedly agree, I've said for a long time that pool just needs to be marketed properly. We only need to convince 10% of the people who play pool every year to watch it on television and you have a huge audience (the percentage is probably a bit off, but you get the idea).
9 ball was relevant 25 odd years ago when the Colour of Money came out, but it's not anymore, not with the general public anyways.
8 ball may be easy for pros, but as previously mentioned make the tournament pockets 4.25 and your good to go.
FWIW the format of the IPT tournaments were unparalled.
9 ball was relevant 25 odd years ago when the Colour of Money came out, but it's not anymore, not with the general public anyways.
8 ball may be easy for pros, but as previously mentioned make the tournament pockets 4.25 and your good to go.
FWIW the format of the IPT tournaments were unparalled.
I still can't believe KT didn't use a shot clock at all. We only saw the most exciting games on tv but those poor people in attendance looked like they wanted to die they were so bored. Someday someone will figure out the right formula and a short shot clock will be a big part of it.
Speed pool gets on tv. Hello? Somebody make the connection please.
Speed pool gets on tv. Hello? Somebody make the connection please.
I gotta disagree with this assessment, at least in my experience. I watched a LOT of Pro 8-ball at the Galveston World Classic last month and didn't see a heck of a lot of break-and-runs. On the contrary, most games were several innings or more with a LOT of safety play.
Maniac
The real sad thing is when they genuinely get pi$$ed-off when you shoot a safety. Like you're supposed to take some kind of shot even if there isn't one anywhere on the table, ultimately leaving them a nice shot or runout. Geez!!!
Maniac
Not exactly.
http://www.internationalpooltour.com/Players/
This is the percentage of games won via break and run verses the total number of wins overall by these players in the North American Open.
Efren Reyes: 28.71%
Alex Pagulayan: 34.81%
Ralf Souquet: 38.89%
Thorsten Hohmann: 37.07%
Johnny Archer: 37.63%
Fransico Bustamente: 39.76%
Marlon Manalo: 30.58%
Darren Appleton: 23.31%
Mika Immonen: 34.11%
As you can see I am not exactly picking the hacks, these are some of the absolute best pool players we have.
They are not winning the majoritty of their games via runouts, that should tell you something, opponents are getting to the table.
If you look here
http://www.internationalpooltour.com/Stats/
you notice Efren won 43 total matches and had 130 break and runs. These were races to 8, so Efren won no less then 344 games in those wins, and god knows how many matches he lost or how many games were won in those loses, some to be sure. It is therefore likely that Efren had no more then a 1 in 3 average from the break in getting a break and run, that is if Efren won only 46 more games in his matches that he lost.
That is not "too easy", it is just not.
When Wu Chia Ching won the world 9-ball championships he ran the last 5 racks with his opponent on the hill in the finals if you need a comparison.
Pool on T.V. needs to change and be presented like golf. AKA you do not follow one single match or game. The producers pick 4 or 5 premier matches and they cut in and out to various matches and show key moments. Even in golf we are not following around only Tiger, we see other players instead of watching Tiger walk 340 yards after a drive.
Pool is a game like golf, lots of relatively standard not too impressive stuff with rare moments of awesomeness. The marketing of the sport needs to realize this and show quite a few matches at one time and show those exciting moments from the various matches. The added bonus of this is people see how the people win each match and this adds to the excitement of the next match as they watched Alex P smoke Thorsten and Mika beat Efren and now they get to see the battle of those two winners. It is common sense, but low and behold it has not been figured out.
Shot clock? Yeah but not excessive, you don't want speed pool and you want enough time to think through things. I would say a 45 second shot clock with 2 45 second extensions per a game would be perfect for 8-ball on conditions such as are being discussed. 8-ball is a game that requires alot more thought then rotation pool.
Bar Rules Vs BCA ball in Hand
IMHO 8 Ball is both a Banger and Pros game on a BB. BB tables seem to be the most popular these days so why not play Pro 8 Ball games on a BB loser break.
Now for my Rant about Bar Rules. I think you are all wrong about Bar Rules. Bar rules make the game harder and requires more skill. An out from the Kitchen is harder because that ball in hand doesn't get you that one ball or perfect break out shot. Close shots, where you may or may not kiss also add more skill to the game by calling the kiss or no kiss. Defensive shots, Because they are looked upon as unsportsman are hard to pull off and must look like a Two way shot you missed.
I played BCA Ball in Hand rules for years before going back to playing Bar Rules because of where I now live. At first I didn't like Bar rules, But now I have come to appreciate 8 Ball Bar Rules.
Allen_jr
I have to agree about the ""Underside of Pool"" as a promotional advantage. We are in a ever chancing world and Casino Gambling is coming ever more popular. Certainly the public doesn't view Poker players as Preachers and Goody Goodies. Minnesota Fats was a real promoter of the game in his day and no one saw him as a saint.
IMHO 8 Ball is both a Banger and Pros game on a BB. BB tables seem to be the most popular these days so why not play Pro 8 Ball games on a BB loser break.
Now for my Rant about Bar Rules. I think you are all wrong about Bar Rules. Bar rules make the game harder and requires more skill. An out from the Kitchen is harder because that ball in hand doesn't get you that one ball or perfect break out shot. Close shots, where you may or may not kiss also add more skill to the game by calling the kiss or no kiss. Defensive shots, Because they are looked upon as unsportsman are hard to pull off and must look like a Two way shot you missed.
I played BCA Ball in Hand rules for years before going back to playing Bar Rules because of where I now live. At first I didn't like Bar rules, But now I have come to appreciate 8 Ball Bar Rules.
Allen_jr
I have to agree about the ""Underside of Pool"" as a promotional advantage. We are in a ever chancing world and Casino Gambling is coming ever more popular. Certainly the public doesn't view Poker players as Preachers and Goody Goodies. Minnesota Fats was a real promoter of the game in his day and no one saw him as a saint.
The world championship tv series the year Wu won followed the pattern of showing just the end of a bunch of matches in an hour and so did the ipt.
The most ridiculous thing about bar rules is whe you have to kick at the 8 ball when it's in the ktchen and your opponent keeps scratching.
The most ridiculous thing about bar rules is whe you have to kick at the 8 ball when it's in the ktchen and your opponent keeps scratching.
There are a tremendous amount of things about bar rules that are ridiculous. IMO they are not even worth discussing tbh.
I remember when the World 9 ball Championships were being aired in Canada, they were shown in something like 9 seperate 2 hour segments. Up until the finals, they would show 4 edited matches per episode which was great for those with short attention spans (ie. me). In other words, I like Celtics idea.
P.S. has any Pool organisation ever thought about contracting a market research organisation to do a survey with the public to find out what would actually entice an audience? I know they are annoying but it's better than speculating.
P.S. has any Pool organisation ever thought about contracting a market research organisation to do a survey with the public to find out what would actually entice an audience? I know they are annoying but it's better than speculating.
Luxury
You better learn how to kick at a ball and hit it hard enough to knock it out of the Kitchen or make it. Sorry I know my views are not popular here, but they are in fact the most popular among all those who play pool. Not just we who like to think we are pool players.
IMHO Ball in Hand rules were made to help lesser players and speed up the game for league play. Two no hit rule and Spot shots are no longer used to make the game easier also. Sorry I am old school.
Actually no, BIH rules favor the better player. It makes it so you actually have to worry about scratching even if your opponents balls are behind the head string. A scratch is a FOUL. In every sport, if you commit a foul you are punished for it. If you are shooting the ball before the eight, and the eight is behind the head string, and you scratch, you just F'd up, YOU DESERVE TO LOSE, the other player should not have to shoot some extremely low percentage shot kicking at the eight ball that's sitting on the head rail, it's completely ridiculous and makes no sense. If you think it's too easy for somebody to get out with ball in hand after a scratch the answer is simple, DON'T SCRATCH.
I should have never said anything about the rules.
I should have never said anything about the rules.
You took the words right out of my mouth. The only thing to do in this instance is have a rule that if your only object balls are all behind the headstring then you should be able to shoot at one of these balls without having to send whitey to a rail and back. But, as one poster put it, "you can't convince them otherwise".
Maniac
The IT was definitely right about two things:
1) playing eight ball, the one game that the average pool player knows and can relate to
2) having a methodology that required you to justify your continued participation on the tour. Although the way the first set of players was chosen was, in some ways, absurd, the intent was to drop the bottom 50 in the rankings at the end of every IPT season, and have qualifying events to determine who would get those 50 spots. Over time, this would have ensured that only the truly elite got to play on the tour, and that's the way it should be. You should, in my opinion, have to do more than just show up to play in pro events, and had the IPT lasted and been financially viable, that would have been the case, and the IPT tour would have consisted exclusively of the cream of the crop of players.
1) playing eight ball, the one game that the average pool player knows and can relate to
2) having a methodology that required you to justify your continued participation on the tour. Although the way the first set of players was chosen was, in some ways, absurd, the intent was to drop the bottom 50 in the rankings at the end of every IPT season, and have qualifying events to determine who would get those 50 spots. Over time, this would have ensured that only the truly elite got to play on the tour, and that's the way it should be. You should, in my opinion, have to do more than just show up to play in pro events, and had the IPT lasted and been financially viable, that would have been the case, and the IPT tour would have consisted exclusively of the cream of the crop of players.
Anyone that thinks 8 ball is tougher than 9 ball or especially 10 ball should try a little experiment.
1. Go find a 9 footer.
2. Break and 20 racks of 9, 10 & 8 ball and run out from your break (not ball in hand alla ghost).
3. Compare the 3.
The math will not lie
To succeed in 8 ball you need to make a ball on the break and start your run from any ball other than 8. Assuming you only made one ball you have 13 balls to work with. Your option on rotation is only one ball. Ya ya clusters and such. Well you have more balls to work with and more balls available after you make required break outs etc.
1. Go find a 9 footer.
2. Break and 20 racks of 9, 10 & 8 ball and run out from your break (not ball in hand alla ghost).
3. Compare the 3.
The math will not lie
To succeed in 8 ball you need to make a ball on the break and start your run from any ball other than 8. Assuming you only made one ball you have 13 balls to work with. Your option on rotation is only one ball. Ya ya clusters and such. Well you have more balls to work with and more balls available after you make required break outs etc.
I don't think anyone is argueing that 8 ball is tougher than 9 ball or 10 ball, only that it is perhaps more marketable.
I think what Celtic was getting at with the B&R stats was that 8 ball on a tight table with nap cloth isn't exactly a cake walk. That said, 9 ball isn't particularly tough either once you get the break working for you. Thank goodness we're at least playing 10 ball now.
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Yeah at least make the other end of the table the new kitchen in that instance. I try to explain that you call pocket only because it avoids arguments as to whether or not the shot kissed off of all 3 balls as the shooter called it. Also that ball in hand rules avoids all the little safeties u could play without even hitting a ball.
But back to the main topic. Has anyone else enjoyed the accustats game show and the 10 second shot clock? Pat is onto something. I think 9 ball should be played with a 15 second shot clock and no safeties for television purposes. Would be way better to view for the masses.
America's attention span is getting shorter all the time and pool needs to wake up and get with the program if there is ever to be any money for the players.
No I think some people are. They point to the congestion factor etc. Pro-8 ball is simply to easy. Thus you need to trick out the table to toughen it up. Pool is not golf. We cannot move the tees back and dry out the greens to make it tougher for pros.
The IPT's BS with the slow cloth stuff was just hype. Other than the break it did not make the game that tough. I think most of us agree that todays cloths is a more consistent animal than yesterday's napped cloth.
The IPT's BS with the slow cloth stuff was just hype. Other than the break it did not make the game that tough. I think most of us agree that todays cloths is a more consistent animal than yesterday's napped cloth.