IMO the IPT was right on 8-ball.

[Ball Banger]

BallBanger. There are two points in your bar rules statement that could be adopted as I think they do make the game a little tougher, The ball in the kitchen after a foul and having to shoot at what you make on the break are two that could be useful.

However where is the skill you speak of when a shooter can scratch on purpose to keep you from shooting the eight ball in the kitchen, or where is the skill when a player doesn't have a shot and just nudges the cue ball an inch and says your shot. You have to realize that most bar eight ball players are bangers and do these exact things, not quality players who know how to play these rules to a high standard. Also there seems to be a different set of bar rules everywhere you go. I've played in numerous tournaments that stated we play bar eight ball rules but had some retarded rule half the people had never heard of.

So therefore a mix of the two would be best but you will never see bar eight ball rules used in major tournaments because of those things.

NineBallNut

No set of rules are going to please everyone. But if 8 Ball is going to be played by Professionals, I feel the rules should be hard enough to make it interesting. I say call kisses and that shouldn't be too hard for a Pro. Having to take the balls you make on the break is another Equalizer for pro players I agree with. This could lead to some serious safety games, but some type of foul rule would have to be made. Ball in hand is just too much of a gift. Should a ball be in the Kitchen then I say spot it.

I have seem some pretty off the wall house rules over the years and agree there is no standard for Bar Rules and never will be.

Celtic

Canada gets awful cold in the winter and Miami averages 75 degrees all winter long. Come on down the weather is great. But bring your cash. I turn 69 years young two weeks from today, So you should have no problem beating up on an old pinoy Ball Banger. Kapayaan sa kanyang paglisan.

 

[Maniac]

Ball in hand is just too much of a gift. Should a ball be in the Kitchen then I say spot it.

Let's play the "what if" game. What if the person who is shooting after the scratch by the opponent has two or more balls on the table and they are ALL in the kitchen. Then how in the heck do you decide WHICH ball to spot? Now I agree that ball-in-hand is a big advantage for shooters of professional speed, but I can never agree to penalizing a person when their opponent scratches or penalizing a person for making a ball on the break. So what if they "run out"? Just make the sets longer and EVERYONE will get their chance to succeed. Just my opinion.

Maniac

 

[predator]

8ball at the pro level can be very cruel. Forget about different rule sets. If you don't make a ball on the break, you will get punished...much more often than at 9ball or 10ball. That's why you won't see the pro's matching up at 8ball that often.

I watched a high stakes 8ball gambling matches between best player from our country Ivica Putnik versus a fierce pool hustler from Macedonia. They played last pocket 8ball mixed with normal WPA rules. Basically normal 8ball, except you have to make the 8 in the last pocket that you made last ball from your group. On paper last pocket 8ball should complicate the game greatly, but they pretty much ran out from everywhere, especially when the opponent didn't make a ball on the break. There was tactical play of course, but much less than I expected. It all came down to having the better break and not screwing up routine clearences.
They entertained us for a few days, but honestly I would prefer if they played 9ball or 10ball. It would be more exciting, but if the money is serious the Macedonian guy only wants to play last pocket 8ball...
The thing I disliked the most about last pocket 8ball is that you can rattle the 8 in your pocket, and if it's not possible for your opponent to knock it away from your pocket, you got away with a clear miss a won a game...

 

[JAM]

8ball at the pro level can be very cruel. Forget about different rule sets. If you don't make a ball on the break, you will get punished...much more often than at 9ball or 10ball. That's why you won't see the pro's matching up at 8ball that often.

I watched a high stakes 8ball gambling matches between best player from our country Ivica Putnik versus a fierce pool hustler from Macedonia. They played last pocket 8ball mixed with normal WPA rules. Basically normal 8ball, except you have to make the 8 in the last pocket that you made last ball from your group. On paper last pocket 8ball should complicate the game greatly, but they pretty much ran out from everywhere, especially when the opponent didn't make a ball on the break. There was tactical play of course, but much less than I expected. It all came down to having the better break and not screwing up routine clearences.
They entertained us for a few days, but honestly I would prefer if they played 9ball or 10ball. It would be more exciting, but if the money is serious the Macedonian guy only wants to play last pocket 8ball...
The thing I disliked the most about last pocket 8ball is that you can rattle the 8 in your pocket, and if it's not possible for your opponent to knock it away from your pocket, you got away with a clear miss a won a game...

Hey, Predator, do you ever see Sandor Tot anymore in your area? I miss seeing him on the tournament trail. I haven't read much about him in recent times.

I remember he and my boyfriend got along great together, enjoying a lot of laughs at the bar. LOL!

Sandor on the left, me in the middle -- (I used to love that shirt) -- and a California player on the right.

The photo was taken by Diana Hoppe at Gene Hooker, et al., Trump Marina 10-Ball Championship in Atlantic City. Danny Hewitt from Canada won it, with Jim Rempe coming in second place.

There was a snow blizzard that weekend, and we were all stuck there. They had to start the tournament a day late, if memory serves me right. All roads going in and out of A.C. were closed down. Can you imagine a bunch of pool players snowed in at a casino? :grin:

 

[JAM]

8-ball was the first pool game I ever learned. I never even saw a game of 9-ball until I went to a pool room. We used to play 8-ball in the local neighborhood taverns. We had leagues and weekly $5 entry fee pool tournaments. Back then, it used to only cost 25 cents to play a game of pool.

When I went on the road in the '70s or thereabouts, I soon learned about the other games of pocket billiards. Down South, everybody seemed to like one-pocket, and I could not get over the amount of pool tables in the bars. In Maryland/D.C. area, you'd go into a bar, and there would be one, maybe two pool tables. Down South, you'd go into a bar, and there would be 20 or 30 pool tables, all bar boxes. Pool was very popular then.

Not everybody feels badly about the IPT. In fact, today, there are some IPT competitors who feel this was the best that pool has ever shined, even with the payout problems at the end. I have written extensively about this topic, and I intend to publish it later when I'm good and ready, but I ain't opening up that can of IPT worms on this thread.

The point of my post is that most people that play pool understand 8-ball. Only the pool purists can get into one-pocket. There is a straight pool following in recent times, and that is another game that could be thrown in the mix. After all, it's what Mosconi, Fats, Irving, Wimpy, and many of the other pool greats played.

The IPT was shot down hard by a majority of non-players. The same thing just happened with the Galveston event. No matter what or who brings pool to the fore today, you can be sure that it will get shot down before it gets off the ground.

The best time I ever had in my life with pool was when I was playing on the leagues. Pool is not a spectator sport, like baseball, football, basketball, golf, and tennis. It's a sport that needs to be played. Maybe it's time to not even call pool a sport anymore. I guess it's evolved into a recreational game, much like chess and checkers.

Can you imagine watching a livestream of a checkers game challenge between two action checkers players? Well, that's what pool looks like to mainstream America.

 

[allen_jr]

Not to add fire to the flame, but I hear a lot of people saying that 8-Ball should have call kiss shots... well, I personally think 9-ball should be call -pocket. Just my little ol' opinion, but I can't stand playing (or watching) 9-ball and a player just fires away at a shot, lucks it in, and keeps shooting... I know its a minor variation, but I think it would add a lot to the game. And I know, it doesn't happen every game, but it happens a lot. Even at the top pro level, it happens. This goes back to re-iterate my earlier point (which someone else mentioned, but I can't find the post) most action revolves around 9-ball or 10-ball because it gives the weaker player a chance. Play against a much better player, and if he makes 6 or 7 balls and misses, you got a chance to win. Play the same better player in 8-Ball, and you still have to run all your balls... it may not be much harder for a top player, but it still is harder and requires work.

If everyone agrees that rotation games are the way to go, which most people here seem to agree, then why not just play rotation? I'm guessing you'll say it's too hard.

I'm not trying to say 9-Ball isn't a good game, so don't jump on my back about that, I just think it could be improved slightly to make it better to watch. On that note, I do agree that 8-Ball is the way to go for televised pool because everyone and their mother knows how to play it. A lot of people may still call it "highs and lows" or "solids and stripes", but they know the game and how it works. (don't laugh, it sounds silly to all of us, but many of the "millions" of recreational poolplayers don't even know the game is called 8-Ball-but they know how to play it)

On a side note, I have a really cool idea for a tournament format that would make 9-ball more exciting to watch, but I don't want to reveal it yet Hopefully sometime this year we can get it going, I think spectators and players are gonna really enjoy it...

 

[allen_jr]

Oh yeah - JAM, that 10-Ball event was great... something about being snowed in a casino. Of course, the snow didn't help the event much, but it was fun being there

 

[JAM]

Oh yeah - JAM, that 10-Ball event was great... something about being snowed in a casino. Of course, the snow didn't help the event much, but it was fun being there

One thing for sure, I was glad my debit card had a $300 daily limit on it while we were snowed in at that casino! :wink:

We did end up hitting it big due to Dee Adkins at the off-track-betting place. Dee kept winning race after race, and we got a piece of it at the end. :grin-square:

I enjoy going to the high-profile events in person, and there is something to be said about seeing pool live and in person. Though I do not think pool is a spectator sport, it's a whole lot better spectating pool while there on site, up front and close, than it is on TV or the Internet.

In fact, this is where the regional tours provide the best bang for the buck, not only for the player but for the spectators. It's cool sitting on the front row watching it live.

One of my all-time favorite matches was seeing your father, Allen, in the finals at a Joss tournament in Snookers pool room (Providence, RI) where he was up against Ginky (George San Souci). Neither one of them made a mistake. It was some of the finest shooting I had ever seen in my life. It came down to who made balls on the break. Ginky ended up winning, but up until that game ball dropped, it could have gone either way. Allen Hopkins was a monster that night, as was Ginky. Joe Tucker ended up coming in third place.

In my opinion, this is the best way to enjoy pool, being there in person. At least it is for me. My other half, who's played pool his entire life, doesn't even enjoy watching pool on TV or Internet. So I'm not sure if 8-ball is the change agent needed to elevate pool in popularity. So all this talk about throwing big money in pool seems it's doomed to fail before it gets off the ground. Quite frankly, though this forum is popular, we are in the minority when it comes to being a sport enthusiast compared to football, basketball, baseball, tennis, and golf, which are spectator sports.

Joe, Ginky, and Allen, of course, in the pic below.

 

[predator]

Hey, Predator, do you ever see Sandor Tot anymore in your area? I miss seeing him on the tournament trail. I haven't read much about him in recent times.
I remember he and my boyfriend got along great together, enjoying a lot of laughs at the bar. LOL!

Yes, he usually plays when we host a bigger tournament. I don't think he travels to US much...cost probably...plays in Eurotour events also...
He still plays world class pool of course...

I'm not surprised about him and your boyfriend getting along well...both have a reputation for being party animals...:grin:
Both also play very attacking fast pool...

 

[Cameron Smith]

I think the debate as to which game is a better test for the pros is missing the point a bit. From a marketing stand point 8 ball is the game that should be put on tv. If pool catches on as a spectator sport and we get a larger knowledgable audience, then we can introduce One Pocket and Straight Pool into televised tournaments.

FWIW if I had my way everyone would be playing 14.1.

 

[Ball Banger]

I think the debate as to which game is a better test for the pros is missing the point a bit. From a marketing stand point 8 ball is the game that should be put on tv. If pool catches on as a spectator sport and we get a larger knowledgable audience, then we can introduce One Pocket and Straight Pool into televised tournaments.

FWIW if I had my way everyone would be playing 14.1.

Cameron

I agree agree 14-1 is the game of champions and said so above, but the average banger can't run 5 balls. From a pure marketing stand point 8 ball is the game that must be promoted. Bar Boxes are set up in such a way to make 8 Ball the only practical game unless they are open. Most people only see or know of BB. Almost every bar has at least one.

Marketing is a numbers game and must appeal to the greatest population or those who play casual. Leagues have helped but we need more media coverage. After Movies like Color of Money the interest in pool picked up. Mainstreaming pool is the key. Not much of a surprise but here in Retirement City Florida we have retired Doctors and CEOs who now are big supporters of pool instead of Golf. Pool cost compared to other sports should also be promoted. A round of golf is a C note while I can drive to leagues or local tournaments, Eat dinner and have a fun night out for a heck of a lot less with a chance of bring money home.

Speaking about Cost, Diamond Billiards in Cape Coral Florida has a Sunday afternoon 8 Ball tournament. $ 10 you can get 2 hours of warm up practice and then play the tournament. They also draw a name to try a 10 ball rack, paying on each ball made. How much cheaper can it get???? BTW Diamonds is an up scale place and voted best pool hall of 2008 by Billiards Digest. They even have TV in the Men's room. Too bad I have to drive over 50 miles to get there and only go occasionally.

 

[greyghost]

Not to add fire to the flame, but I hear a lot of people saying that 8-Ball should have call kiss shots... well, I personally think 9-ball should be call -pocket. Just my little ol' opinion, but I can't stand playing (or watching) 9-ball and a player just fires away at a shot, lucks it in, and keeps shooting... I know its a minor variation, but I think it would add a lot to the game. And I know, it doesn't happen every game, but it happens a lot. Even at the top pro level, it happens. This goes back to re-iterate my earlier point (which someone else mentioned, but I can't find the post) most action revolves around 9-ball or 10-ball because it gives the weaker player a chance. Play against a much better player, and if he makes 6 or 7 balls and misses, you got a chance to win. Play the same better player in 8-Ball, and you still have to run all your balls... it may not be much harder for a top player, but it still is harder and requires work.

If everyone agrees that rotation games are the way to go, which most people here seem to agree, then why not just play rotation? I'm guessing you'll say it's too hard.

I'm not trying to say 9-Ball isn't a good game, so don't jump on my back about that, I just think it could be improved slightly to make it better to watch. On that note, I do agree that 8-Ball is the way to go for televised pool because everyone and their mother knows how to play it. A lot of people may still call it "highs and lows" or "solids and stripes", but they know the game and how it works. (don't laugh, it sounds silly to all of us, but many of the "millions" of recreational poolplayers don't even know the game is called 8-Ball-but they know how to play it)

On a side note, I have a really cool idea for a tournament format that would make 9-ball more exciting to watch, but I don't want to reveal it yet Hopefully sometime this year we can get it going, I think spectators and players are gonna really enjoy it...

full fledged agreement with you on all of that.

 

[Celtic]

I personally think 9-ball should be call -pocket. Just my little ol' opinion, but I can't stand playing (or watching) 9-ball and a player just fires away at a shot, lucks it in, and keeps shooting...

The main problem with this is that when you don't have a good shape shot in 9-ball this would allow people to simply play "just a shot", shoot in a hanger with no shape, and hook the now incomming player. There are a TON of situations like this in 9-ball and by making the game called ball a person would be able to manipulate that rule to huge effect. You would have to then do something like give a player ball in hand if the opponent makes a uncalled ball or allow pushouts off of uncalled pots by the incomming player. It is not that easy a switch.

 

[allen_jr]

The main problem with this is that when you don't have a good shape shot in 9-ball this would allow people to simply play "just a shot", shoot in a hanger with no shape, and hook the now incomming player. There are a TON of situations like this in 9-ball and by making the game called ball a person would be able to manipulate that rule to huge effect. You would have to then do something like give a player ball in hand if the opponent makes a uncalled ball or allow pushouts off of uncalled pots by the incomming player. It is not that easy a switch.

I think I'm confused... if an opponent shoots in a hanger and leaves bad shape, he still has to shoot. I suppose he could just play safe, and then you would have to shoot or kick and play safe in return. Safety play is allowed in any game (I know some people would discuss that too, but...) Assuming safety play is allowed, then the game would be won by the better thinker and shooter... Which, again, becomes a more skillful game.

If you opponent leaves you safe, whether intentionally or not, and you can't call a pocket (mind you, you can still call a combo or whatever crazy luck shot you want) or play safe in return - instead you just whack at the ball and hope something goes in, you should lose control of the table and your opponent should be up. And if you whack the balls as mentioned and the nine ball goes in, you should definitely not win the game.

If you can't accurately predict the outcome of the shot you are making, you are not playing pool, you are banging balls around.

This is what makes 9-Ball a luckier game than any other game in the billiards world, and is one of reasons people love to play it, whether they admit it or know it or not. At the top professional level these issues don't come into play as much, because they can control the cue ball much better, and know the danger of losing control to their equally skilled opponent. It does still happen, but not nearly as much as it does in non "professional" games.

If I misunderstood your point, I'm sorry, I'm kinda tired right now.