IMO the IPT was right on 8-ball.

[greyghost]

thanks for doing the hard work bf i got to it

Not exactly.

http://www.internationalpooltour.com/Players/

This is the percentage of games won via break and run verses the total number of wins overall by these players in the North American Open.

Efren Reyes: 28.71%
Alex Pagulayan: 34.81%
Ralf Souquet: 38.89%
Thorsten Hohmann: 37.07%
Johnny Archer: 37.63%
Fransico Bustamente: 39.76%
Marlon Manalo: 30.58%
Darren Appleton: 23.31%
Mika Immonen: 34.11%

As you can see I am not exactly picking the hacks, these are some of the absolute best pool players we have.

They are not winning the majoritty of their games via runouts, that should tell you something, opponents are getting to the table.

If you look here

http://www.internationalpooltour.com/Stats/

you notice Efren won 43 total matches and had 130 break and runs. These were races to 8, so Efren won no less then 344 games in those wins, and god knows how many matches he lost or how many games were won in those loses, some to be sure. It is therefore likely that Efren had no more then a 1 in 3 average from the break in getting a break and run, that is if Efren won only 46 more games in his matches that he lost.

That is not "too easy", it is just not.

When Wu Chia Ching won the world 9-ball championships he ran the last 5 racks with his opponent on the hill in the finals if you need a comparison.

30% isn't that the standard that top pros run out in 9 ball? Hacks think 8 ball is weak because they just want to seperate themselves from the minnows. Lets not be delusional and say 8 ball is easy...thats like saying 9 balls is easy now isn't it. Most professional athletes shoot for one in three odds, like baseball your doing well hittin 300. Put money up ball behind the line and take ball in hand in the kitchen on the break and try and beat the 8 ball ghost on the 9 foot to 10 games see how you like it, oh and not on buckets...do this on a 4 1/4" pocket. Have a wonderful time with that.

 

[Roadie]

I agree with some of what you say but they also must follow the womens pro circuit.The ladies seem to be doing pretty good.
The main reason pool wont ever be a super sport is because it is not T.V. friendly.Not to many people want to see someone run a rack out and then start al over again. keep the attention span of the public and maybe you can keep pool.There are also too many other sports here that compete for advertising dollars that are more T.V. friendly.JMO

They are not doing good at all. They have cut their tournament schedule from 8 to 6 tournaments and most of the remaining ones are on year-to-year basis with no guarantee that the venue or the main sponsors will agree to host it the following year. The Women's Tour is struggling.

Pool is not taken seriously by the public because no one makes it interesting and it's not consistent.

What is pool? Is it 8-Ball? 9-Ball? 14.1? 7-Ball? Skins? What are the rules? Is the US Open rules which change each year? Is it the Dragon Promotions rules? The WPA rules? APA, Matchroom???

Is pool the Allen Hopkins skins game? Is it Celebrity Billiards?

The reason pool as a professional sport fails is two-fold. Number one is that the largest leagues won't work together to fund a solid pro tour that can get on TV. Number two is that the professionals won't stand up for themselves and demand to be treated properly by promoters and broadcasters.

Imagine if ABC said to the WTA that the US Open in Tennis would be played one set instead of three or five because the matches were too long?

How is it that EPSN then gets to dictate to the women that they can only play races to 7 in the finals? Races to 7 that are edited anyway. Why not allow them to play races to 11 and 13 and then edit them down to the best games? Wouldn't that be much better for pool?

And I agree with the original poster. 8 Ball is the one game that is universally known. That should be the game that is promoted as the pro game if the industry and the pros truly want it to get big.

But what can you do when the one group that does have a player's union votes to castrate themselves by allowing the end of the tournament to be a coin flip. By this I mean that the WPBA allows the final matches to be races to 7?

Why, in the past 25 years, has no major pool league been able to get the finals of their amateur tournaments on TV? Other amateur sports enjoy tv coverage. League 8-ball is incredibly exciting. Woudn't this do so much more to get ordinary people excited?

Introduce the team, Chris Brown a lab technician by day, John Smith, Power company linesman, Brett Summers - a surgeon, and so on......why doesn't this stuff happen?

Instead we see hot dog eating contests on ESPN, we see Spelling Bees, Scrabble contests, you name it, as well as plenty of made up pool games and contests. Pool is simply something that every promoter and every broadcaster feels is their right to change as they wish and they do.

As long as this situation exists that there is no consistent pro tour and no pro organization willing to set the rules and standards and demand that broadcasters and promoters adhere to them then pool will never be taken seriously by any of them?

If I were a network exec and someone tried to sell me pool the first thing I'd ask is what is it? 8-Ball?

 

[Roadie]

The world championship tv series the year Wu won followed the pattern of showing just the end of a bunch of matches in an hour and so did the ipt.

The most ridiculous thing about bar rules is whe you have to kick at the 8 ball when it's in the ktchen and your opponent keeps scratching.

I watched the whole match live - Wu's performance was probably one of the greatest pressure performances of the decade. Down 16-11 he outplays his opponent to get the first good shot, runs out the table and then break and runs five more to win.

The same year he also won the world 8-Ball championship.

Anyone who thinks 8 ball is easy hasn't played on a high level team at the VNEA or BCA championships in Vegas. Those are pressure filled matches which display tons of skill and heart. 8 Ball isn't about who can run open tables - it's about who can weave in and out of balls, manage clusters, come with impossible safeties when the other guy has 7 balls to shoot at, come with incredible shots time after time when the table is tied or the balls are funny.

The IPT for all it's faults managed to get some very high level 8-ball on video. It shows that 8 ball is not easy and certainly not easier than 9 ball.

It's a different game. Different patterns, different choices. 8-ball was invented for coin-op tables. An easy game to play when you can't spot balls. Not that it requires less skill, it's just different.

The British play a lot of 8 ball on smaller tables - 6 footers with rounded pockets. Anyone who watches them play this on those tables should be impressed with how well these guys play. It's not any wonder why a lot of them transition to American style pool much easier than we would be able to play their game on their equipment.

 

[Celtic]

They are not doing good at all. They have cut their tournament schedule from 8 to 6 tournaments and most of the remaining ones are on year-to-year basis with no guarantee that the venue or the main sponsors will agree to host it the following year. The Women's Tour is struggling.

Pool is not taken seriously by the public because no one makes it interesting and it's not consistent.

What is pool? Is it 8-Ball? 9-Ball? 14.1? 7-Ball? Skins? What are the rules? Is the US Open rules which change each year? Is it the Dragon Promotions rules? The WPA rules? APA, Matchroom???

Is pool the Allen Hopkins skins game? Is it Celebrity Billiards?

The reason pool as a professional sport fails is two-fold. Number one is that the largest leagues won't work together to fund a solid pro tour that can get on TV. Number two is that the professionals won't stand up for themselves and demand to be treated properly by promoters and broadcasters.

Imagine if ABC said to the WTA that the US Open in Tennis would be played one set instead of three or five because the matches were too long?

How is it that EPSN then gets to dictate to the women that they can only play races to 7 in the finals? Races to 7 that are edited anyway. Why not allow them to play races to 11 and 13 and then edit them down to the best games? Wouldn't that be much better for pool?

And I agree with the original poster. 8 Ball is the one game that is universally known. That should be the game that is promoted as the pro game if the industry and the pros truly want it to get big.

But what can you do when the one group that does have a player's union votes to castrate themselves by allowing the end of the tournament to be a coin flip. By this I mean that the WPBA allows the final matches to be races to 7?

Why, in the past 25 years, has no major pool league been able to get the finals of their amateur tournaments on TV? Other amateur sports enjoy tv coverage. League 8-ball is incredibly exciting. Woudn't this do so much more to get ordinary people excited?

Introduce the team, Chris Brown a lab technician by day, John Smith, Power company linesman, Brett Summers - a surgeon, and so on......why doesn't this stuff happen?

Instead we see hot dog eating contests on ESPN, we see Spelling Bees, Scrabble contests, you name it, as well as plenty of made up pool games and contests. Pool is simply something that every promoter and every broadcaster feels is their right to change as they wish and they do.

As long as this situation exists that there is no consistent pro tour and no pro organization willing to set the rules and standards and demand that broadcasters and promoters adhere to them then pool will never be taken seriously by any of them?

If I were a network exec and someone tried to sell me pool the first thing I'd ask is what is it? 8-Ball?

That there is one of the best posts ever. This IS the key and our issue. What the heck is pool even? You have 9-ball tournaments, 10-ball tournaments, leagues playing 8-ball, DCC playing 1-pocket and banks, and all of it not connected through a tour and how could it be with so much variation?

Pool is a cluster****, we have too many different games.

Poker producers and marketers were smart enough to realize they cannot play 5 different games, they picked texas hold-em and they put ALL their attention and effort into promoting that one single poker game. This in turn lead to people getting an idea of that single games rules and spurred the interest of the general public that would NEVER have watched poker had it been a collection of Omaha, stud, hold-em, ect... IF poker had went that way and tried to include all the poker games they would have assured a lack of general public interest, a lack of participation by the masses of people that flocked to the game, and a lack of the surge in popularity of their profession.

 

[Mark Griffin]

8-ball

Just to let everyone know that I really enjoy these threads. I agree that 8-ball is the game.

And maybe all of the pieces wil fit together and we can go forward.

Celtic - thanks for the thread - and the paper you had sent me. One of these days we will talk and CHANGE THE POOL WORLD!!! lol

Seriously, these threads make the wheels turn.

Mark Griffin
CSI-BCAPL-USAPL-NCS

 

[Roadie]

Just to let everyone know that I really enjoy these threads. I agree that 8-ball is the game.

And maybe all of the pieces wil fit together and we can go forward.

Celtic - thanks for the thread - and the paper you had sent me. One of these days we will talk and CHANGE THE POOL WORLD!!! lol

Seriously, these threads make the wheels turn.

Mark Griffin
CSI-BCAPL-USAPL-NCS

With all due respect Mr. Griffin your signature reveals part of the problem. What is the CSI-BCAPL-USAPL-NCS?

I know what all those acronyms stand for but to someone else it's enough to make their eyes glaze over.

Have you ever approached ESPN about broadcasting the finals of the BCA Nationals? I understand if you don't want to answer because of competitive reasons but if you are able to then I am sure many of us would be interested in the answer.

 

[Mark Griffin]

which game 8-ball? and on TV?

I have never had a 'real' discussion with the ESPN people about having amateurs on their programing schedule.

But here is what I do know. The WPBA and I believe all other pool programming has to pay all the costs of production and then 'give' the finished product to ESPN.

In most situations, this costs around $40,000 +, and that is before increased HD costs. Unfortuneatly that is the situation that our industry is currently in. There was movement in some industry segments to quit giving the product to ESPN, but there was dissension in some parts of the industry. ESPN probalby has enough pool on film for the next 10 years. PLEASE notice that many programs do NOT tell you the date or year of the event that is being broadcast.

I have elected to push forward in live streaming. I have a good relationship with TAR - who I believe is a leading influence in this young industry. Time will hopefully bring about more market penetration.

The current situation is keeping the poolplayers broke - and I would rather see the winners get the money instead of ESPN getting the benefit of the money. That is the situation today - but is subject to change.

I believe we need to get better coordinated and then can go after good sponsors. We are working on that.

Mark Griffin
CueSports International
markg@playbca.com

 

[Roadie]

I have never had a 'real' discussion with the ESPN people about having amateurs on their programing schedule.

But here is what I do know. The WPBA and I believe all other pool programming has to pay all the costs of production and then 'give' the finished product to ESPN.

In most situations, this costs around $40,000 +, and that is before increased HD costs. Unfortuneatly that is the situation that our industry is currently in. There was movement in some industry segments to quit giving the product to ESPN, but there was dissension in some parts of the industry. ESPN probalby has enough pool on film for the next 10 years. PLEASE notice that many programs do NOT tell you the date or year of the event that is being broadcast.

I have elected to push forward in live streaming. I have a good relationship with TAR - who I believe is a leading influence in this young industry. Time will hopefully bring about more market penetration.

The current situation is keeping the poolplayers broke - and I would rather see the winners get the money instead of ESPN getting the benefit of the money. That is the situation today - but is subject to change.

I believe we need to get better coordinated and then can go after good sponsors. We are working on that.

Mark Griffin
CueSports International
markg@playbca.com

Thank you. I look forward to seeing the live coverage of the finals of the team events on TAR. To my knowledge the excitement and tension of those matches has never before been on any sort of broadcast. It seems as if TAR's quality is as good as what is seen on television so perhaps there may be a way to sell those broadcasts to TV.

 

[sly_shooter]

Not exactly.

http://www.internationalpooltour.com/Players/

This is the percentage of games won via break and run verses the total number of wins overall by these players in the North American Open.

Efren Reyes: 28.71%
Alex Pagulayan: 34.81%
Ralf Souquet: 38.89%
Thorsten Hohmann: 37.07%
Johnny Archer: 37.63%
Fransico Bustamente: 39.76%
Marlon Manalo: 30.58%
Darren Appleton: 23.31%
Mika Immonen: 34.11%

As you can see I am not exactly picking the hacks, these are some of the absolute best pool players we have.

They are not winning the majoritty of their games via runouts, that should tell you something, opponents are getting to the table.

If you look here

http://www.internationalpooltour.com/Stats/

you notice Efren won 43 total matches and had 130 break and runs. These were races to 8, so Efren won no less then 344 games in those wins, and god knows how many matches he lost or how many games were won in those loses, some to be sure. It is therefore likely that Efren had no more then a 1 in 3 average from the break in getting a break and run, that is if Efren won only 46 more games in his matches that he lost.

That is not "too easy", it is just not.

When Wu Chia Ching won the world 9-ball championships he ran the last 5 racks with his opponent on the hill in the finals if you need a comparison.

Yeah, way too many people say 8-Ball is too easy. Not really so, as mentioned before you have many obstacles, blocked pockets and more clusters to break open. I hate laying down, but now I win more because I miss a shot on purpose to let my opponent break up the clusters or unblock the pockets. There is a lot more strategy in 8-ball.

Sure, if you break and have all the balls wide open and no blocked pockets it's easy pickings. But sometimes you are stuck with the clustered balls, your opponents balls are blocking some pockets, and he has the 8-ball blocked. At the same time you can block pockets or the 8-ball on purpose, or pretend to miss like I do, also you can give him clusters or break up your clusters. Sometimes you have to play position on the 8-ball for a bank shot. If you have your ball clustered with his balls you have to decide if you will try to break them up or is it better to let him break them up. If you have a sitting duck in a pocket, or your ball is blocking his, you have to decide when is the best time to shoot it.

I watched Johnny Archer play 8-ball, I think on Youtube and he ran 4 racks of 8-ball, I could here him tell someone that was the first time he ever did that. I'm sure he has ran more than 4 racks of 9-ball many many times.

You might lose, but you won't win a game of 8-ball with you only shooting once or twice.

People around here play 8-Ball mostly. We tried some 9-ball a couple weeks ago and it was way too easy for me.

I think the average person likes 8-ball is because they see they or their opponent needs to make progress to get to the 8-ball. How many times have you thought it sucked you ran the rack but missed the 9 and loss, or you scratched on the 9 and loss. And did you feel proud when you opponent blew the 9-ball and you got the easy shot.

Also, now with everyone and their mother being able to jump, playing a safe in 9-ball isn't what it use to be when I liked playing 9-ball 15-20 years ago.

 

[Ball Banger]

sly_shooter



9 Ball is a shot makers game on a 9 footer. But 8 ball even on a 9 footer is still a position players game. Too many objects to get around for a shot maker with out position. I can turn the Cue ball lose to make the 7 or 8 and still have a high percentage of getting shape to get out in 9 ball. But in 8 ball a B & R you can't turn the cue ball lose and hope to lucky out on shape. Now add in calling Kisses and take away BIH Etc and 8 ball is not so simple.

 

[Celtic]

Now add in calling Kisses and take away BIH Etc and 8 ball is not so simple.

You are welcome to start your own thread on how awesome bar rules are but can you please do so if you wish to discuss them because it is simply a derail on this thread and I am pretty much positive that bar rules are never going to be considered for professional pool, for a huge number of reasons that I will be happy to discuss on a different thread.

 

[Ball Banger]

You are welcome to start your own thread on how awesome bar rules are but can you please do so if you wish to discuss them because it is simply a derail on this thread and I am pretty much positive that bar rules are never going to be considered for professional pool, for a huge number of reasons that I will be happy to discuss on a different thread.

Celtic

Obviously you can't shoot straight enough to play Bar rules kisses and need BIH to make break out shots. But when you start a thread you must realize everyone has opinions. But from my experience with Canadians when they come to Florida with a Clean Shirt and Five dollar bill which they don't change either, They think they own us.

Have a Nice Day.

 

[Mark Griffin]

Play nice!!

I agree with Celtic. This ia a thread about how the IPT was right in 8-ball. Bar table rules are different in every area of the country. BIH is the accepted standard and needs to (obviously) be the rules that are played.

Besides that, Ball Banger, you probably just pissed off a bunch of Canadians and other posters. No reason to take a jab at someone for trying to keep their thread on track.

Try to ease up a little, OK??? (But you are right, you do have the right to post). Actually we are talking about courtesy.

Quite a few are really serious about wanting to know and follow the opinions posted.

Mark Griffin

 

[sly_shooter]

sly_shooter



9 Ball is a shot makers game on a 9 footer. But 8 ball even on a 9 footer is still a position players game. Too many objects to get around for a shot maker with out position. I can turn the Cue ball lose to make the 7 or 8 and still have a high percentage of getting shape to get out in 9 ball. But in 8 ball a B & R you can't turn the cue ball lose and hope to lucky out on shape. Now add in calling Kisses and take away BIH Etc and 8 ball is not so simple.

I think I was kind of saying about the same thing. Where I play there are many better shot makers than me, they make some really hard shots all night long and they make it easy, maybe because many of them played snooker first. I know without a doubt I'm the best position player I have seen around here. I am living in a Middle Eastern country called Bahrain.
Many fine shooters, and only a few decent position players. The next best one is actually from Scotland, and after that a Czech guy. Oh.. got some Filipino players here too, but they have small bankrolls, so if they have a bad night they don't play too long.

Ok, so you say shooters game, position players game. Seems like someone like Earl Strickland always had an easy shot because he gave himself an easy shot. Anyways, without a doubt, 8-ball has more strategy and variables than 9-ball.

Anyways, if I know I am the better player, I would rather play 8-ball for money than 9-ball for money.

 

[Ball Banger]

I agree with Celtic. This ia a thread about how the IPT was right in 8-ball. Bar table rules are different in every area of the country. BIH is the accepted standard and needs to (obviously) be the rules that are played.

Besides that, Ball Banger, you probably just pissed off a bunch of Canadians and other posters. No reason to take a jab at someone for trying to keep their thread on track.

Try to ease up a little, OK??? (But you are right, you do have the right to post). Actually we are talking about courtesy.

Quite a few are really serious about wanting to know and follow the opinions posted.

Mark Griffin

Mark

This is not the first time or will it be the last time I pissed off the world with my opinion. I was trying to make the point that 8 ball isn't all the easy and more of a position game, only added the Bar rule thing at the very end. Celtic can't let it go and has a real issue about Bar Rules. He opened himself up to the tongue lashing I gave him by telling me what I can and can't say. I don't like APA rules so I don't play APA. I don't knock APA rules, I just ignore any conversation about them. If Celtic doesn't like what I say maybe he should just Ignore my comments instead of confronting them.

I make no apology for my above statement and stand on my opinion.

 

[Tom In Cincy]

GREAT Thread Celtic Bravo

I have waited to post my opinion about the IPT and 8 Ball until now. I was a little busy this weekend and I really didn't have time to read all the posts in this thread.

I wasn't surprised when I heard about 8 ball and the nappy cloth being touted as the future of pool and the IPT standard. I just assumed it was a suggestion by "the Mouth" Mike Sigel and KT just went with it thinking Mike knew it all.

The format for the events was absolutely brutal mostly 10 hour days of MIND and BODY exercises in battling the top players in the world. 8 Ball requires every player to THINK and that in it self sets it aside from 9 ball.

But, IMO, it wasn't the game that made the IPT so interesting, it was the HUGE amounts of $$$$$. The "Sizzle" of the format (it just happened to be 8 ball) was the biggest selling point of the entire marketing ploy.

'Glitz and Glamor' and fog flowing runway entries of the players into a playing arena... mostly a Hollywood effect that has been successful for a very long time.

The Production was the selling point. The players were just a byproduct. The IPT had a huge arena of Player BIO information. The spectators gained some knowledge of the players just walking into the arena. Huge pictures of past and present pool players, Hall of Famers and legends.

I was very fortunate to have the privilege of officiating at the $3 Million event in Reno. At the time it was and still maybe the richest event in pool history.

The game of 8 ball is a good game, but, IMO, not my 1st choice for the game of Championships.

I don't think there is a format or game that can equal the SIZZLE generated by the IPT. When someone does come up with the format and game that the TV producers and viewers can SELL, then and only then will the players have a product that can they can SELL to the TV market.

Until that day, we (players and fans) will be the winners and enjoy all that we can by playing and attending these weekly, monthly, regional and national events.

I do believe that today's pool scene is better than it was in the 80s and 90s.

Pool needs a new game and a new format. The Olympics isn't the answer, the Olympics is cutting back on events, not looking to add more.

IMO, the quickest way to increase the amount of money the USA Pro players make, is to make the National events USA citizens only. But, then we wouldn't see the best in the world would we?

 

[Ball Banger]

Tom in Cincy

IMHO the game of Champions always has and always will be 14-1 straight pool. It requires every skill known to man on a pool table. Realize the Heavy balls and Nappy cloth of yesteryears and you realize how great some of the legends actually were.

 

[NineBallNut]

BallBanger. There are two points in your bar rules statement that could be adopted as I think they do make the game a little tougher, The ball in the kitchen after a foul and having to shoot at what you make on the break are two that could be useful.

However where is the skill you speak of when a shooter can scratch on purpose to keep you from shooting the eight ball in the kitchen, or where is the skill when a player doesn't have a shot and just nudges the cue ball an inch and says your shot. You have to realize that most bar eight ball players are bangers and do these exact things, not quality players who know how to play these rules to a high standard. Also there seems to be a different set of bar rules everywhere you go. I've played in numerous tournaments that stated we play bar eight ball rules but had some retarded rule half the people had never heard of.

So therefore a mix of the two would be best but you will never see bar eight ball rules used in major tournaments because of those things.

 

[Celtic]

Celtic can't let it go and has a real issue about Bar Rules. He opened himself up to the tongue lashing I gave him by telling me what I can and can't say. on.

Or I welcomed you to start another thread about that topic and offered to debate bar rules with you there. Noone told you what to say or what not to say, I asked you to respect the topic of the thread and you in turn proved to have too little forum ettiquete to do so and instead derailed the thread. You win. I wish you lived in Calgary though because we could see just how much I suck at those breakouts for a few hundred a set. Vegas next year perhaps?

 

[miplayerstour]

too many things to reply to but here goes

IMO, 8 ball is a great game and it can be viewed as easier to some and more difficult to others, we all have our strengths and weaknesses and obviously opinions. What matters is what does the majority of folks think about the games? What would it take to get the non pool playing public to watch pool matches on tv or live streamed?

I love 9 ball and 10 ball on a 9 foot table! I will play 8 ball and am told by friends I play bettter 8 ball although I dont personally enjoy playing it as much as I do 9 or 10 ball. With that said, what I like to play isnt necessarily what I would sit and watch hours of. I would watch banks and 8 ball for hours above watching 9 ball most times and depending on who is playing.

The problem isnt which game is best or hardest to us that play, its what will get the most NEW viewers to join the pool lovers ranks? That in my opinion is 8 ball or banks. People relate to those games because its what theyve seen and heard of, 8 ball obviously more than banks............banks can be more exciting thus create more viewers potentially.

As far as 8 ball rules go, again, IMO, if your opponent intentionally scratches when you have the 8 behind the line and you dont get ball in hand, I feel removes skill from the game. I think this is a definate rule to be adjusted should 8 ball become the game of choice to promote to the masses.

Also, as a last note...................I do feel the only real way to get to the masses and grow pool is to live stream and grab that group of young people and gain their interest. TAR alone is not the answer..........THEY ARE GREAT mind you and I mean no disrespect at all because I love what they do but, whats needed is an online show that would attract the younger generation to pool. It doesnt have to be all pool playing all the time................interviews with pool players or well known athletes that love pool.........how about extreme pool, you know rolling down the highway playing pool on top of a semi etc. Sounds silly I know but its what gets attention and will ultimately draw in more people to the cause.

Again, just opinions folks and we all have them good and bad. If we all thought the same way what a boring world we would live in and imagine the lack of progress that would stem from no individual thoughts or ideas.

Many times, disagreements or different opinions, if we are open to them, bring about great change.