Incardona/Stu Ungar?

[yobagua]

THe other night on Poker After Dark a guy named "Boston" told a story of Billy getting together with Stu Ungar the great card player. He was talking about the time they were hustling this wealthy guy at Gin. Which Stuey was a phenom. Can any one enlighten me on Billy's experience with Phil.
By the way there are a lot of great poker players who have a background with pool.
John Hennigan, Daniel Negreaneu, David Benyamine, Sammy Farrhar, Nick (?) Shulman, Josh Arieh, etc. These guys bet in the 100 of thousands. Why not get together a bunch of them for a big event? Combine poker and pool. It would make a great event.

 

[Fast Lenny]

I think john Hennigan would be the favorite for pool anyway. As for Stu may he RIP,what a talent but what demons also the guy had.

 

[hemicudas]

THe other night on Poker After Dark a guy named "Boston" told a story of Billy getting together with Stu Ungar the great card player. He was talking about the time they were hustling this wealthy guy at Gin. Which Stuey was a phenom. Can any one enlighten me on Billy's experience with Phil.
By the way there are a lot of great poker players who have a background with pool.
John Hennigan, Daniel Negreaneu, David Benyamine, Sammy Farrhar, Nick (?) Shulman, Josh Arieh, etc. These guys bet in the 100 of thousands. Why not get together a bunch of them for a big event? Combine poker and pool. It would make a great event.

WINCARDONA,,,,,,,,your phone is ringing........ For sure, Yo. I would love to hear Billy relate that story with Stuey. I am sure Billy knew, Larry "Buckwheat" Wade and his super high rolling pool and gin action. Might not "Buckwheat" have been the target????

Interest in this thread may be low, Yo but Usun's who have been around all kinds of action over the years ie Jay, etc. would love to hear, The Real Story.

 

[!Smorgass Bored]

Don't Forget To Embellish The Story For We Hardcore Action Junkies

Count me in Hemi, I'm not even going to bed until I hear the story.... imo
Doug
( I hope it's soon because I'm yawning as I type this )

 

[punter]

I just finished reading "One of a Kind" which is a biography on Stu Ungar, unquestionably the greatest gin player who ever lived. He didn't just beat what were regarded as the best players in the world, he demolished them. After virtually all his gin action dried up, he turned to poker and won the WSOP the first two years he played, and then won it again some 20 years later, even as he battled his drug demons.

This quote from Ungar is in the forward, "Fifty years from now, I suppose that a better poker player may come around, but I can't see how there will ever be a better gin player. I really mean it. Michael Jordan won, what, four or five MVP's? If they gave an MVP for gin rummy, I would have won it every year since I was sixteen years old."

 

[Fast Lenny]

I just finished reading "One of a Kind" which is a biography on Stu Ungar, unquestionably the greatest gin player who ever lived. He didn't just beat what were regarded as the best players in the world, he demolished them. After virtually all his gin action dried up, he turned to poker and won the WSOP the first two years he played, and then won it again some 20 years later, even as he battled his drug demons.

This quote from Ungar is in the forward, "Fifty years from now, I suppose that a better poker player may come around, but I can't see how there will ever be a better gin player. I really mean it. Michael Jordan won, what, four or five MVP's? If they gave an MVP for gin rummy, I would have won it every year since I was sixteen years old."

Yeah he was great,the movie on him i enjoyed also.

 

[!Smorgass Bored]

THe other night on Poker After Dark a guy named "Boston" told a story of Billy getting together with Stu Ungar the great card player. He was talking about the time they were hustling this wealthy guy at Gin. Which Stuey was a phenom.
Can any one enlighten me on Billy's experience with Phil.

I PMed yobagua twice and told him that I was confused about him asking about Billy and Phil, I even included a link back to his post. He PMed me back to tell me that nowhere in his post did he mention any Phil. (Ivey or Helmuth)
Doug
( tell me that I'm not blind..... I'm confused, but I don't think I'm blind )

 

[yobagua]

Doug will you please forgive me. I meant Stuey. I been so caught up in this Harriman/Schmidt thing which I have been unable to get access to I did not look at the post correctly.
I meant Billy's dealing with Stuey
Again sorry

 

[!Smorgass Bored]

I Ain't Mad Atchya

Doug will you please forgive me. I meant Stuey. I been so caught up in this Harriman/Schmidt thing which I have been unable to get access to I did not look at the post correctly.
I meant Billy's dealing with Stuey
Again sorry

Certainly I forgive you. If I'd paid for the broadcast and was unable to access it, I'd be VERY upset also....
Doug

 

[hemicudas]

Doug will you please forgive me. I meant Stuey. I been so caught up in this Harriman/Schmidt thing which I have been unable to get access to I did not look at the post correctly.
I meant Billy's dealing with Stuey
Again sorry

All's forgiven, Yo. Whether Doug likes it or not. Now, will someone other than me, I already have, please leave word for Billy to check out this thread and reply. You have my interest peaked on this subject.

 

[yobagua]

alright Hemi Ive calmed down a bit after the Action Report debacle. The story went like this. Billy and Stuey were at a rich guys place playing Gin.
They started playing and on one hand they ended up in a wash, a tie. There was 3 cards left in the deck and Stuey bent over and told Billy what the 3 unturned cards were.
The rich guy goes "Huh what did he say?". Billy not wanting the rich guy know how good Stuey played said "Oh he said you played real good." Stuey looked at Billy real pissed and wanted Billy to tell him what Stu had really said. Billy just smiled and said "deal". LOL

 

[catscradle]

alright Hemi Ive calmed down a bit after the Action Report debacle. The story went like this. Billy and Stuey were at a rich guys place playing Gin.
They started playing and on one hand they ended up in a wash, a tie. There was 3 cards left in the deck and Stuey bent over and told Billy what the 3 unturned cards were.
The rich guy goes "Huh what did he say?". Billy not wanting the rich guy know how good Stuey played said "Oh he said you played real good." Stuey looked at Billy real pissed and wanted Billy to tell him what Stu had really said. Billy just smiled and said "deal". LOL

The guy must have had a photographic memory. I have a decent memory for cards and had a good one when my mind was fresher than it is now, but some of these people are just phenomenal with their memories. It's cheating.

 

[Russ Chewning]

He DID have a photographic memory. There is an apocryphal story about him getting banned from the black jack tables in Vegas, and then just for some action, he challenged the casino to a bet:

The casino could shuffle a six deck shoe, deal out half the shoe, and Stuey would then tell them exactly how many of each card were left in the deck.

According to the story, the casino was stupid enough to take him up on the bet.

Stu suffered from the same downfall of a lot of pool players. He had an addictive personality. People like Stu Ungar get addicted to the "rush" of gambling, then look for some other kind of rush when gambling isn't feeding the addiction.

I've always thought that drugs are a problem with poolplayers not just it goes with the subculture, but because the personalities drawn to the "easy money" and "action rush" of money pool have a certain predisposition towards addiction in all it's forms.

Russ

 

[senor]

The guy must have had a photographic memory. I have a decent memory for cards and had a good one when my mind was fresher than it is now, but some of these people are just phenomenal with their memories. It's cheating.

If you play a lot of gin, it's not too hard to remember all the cards played in an individual hand. So, I believe his mastery of gin was due to more than just a photographic memory. He had a knowledge or sense of the game's theories and strategies beyond the basic. With half of the deck gone (20 cards dealt and 3 or 4 discards) he knew or felt he knew exactly where his opponent stood in the hand. Pretty tough to deal with. More often than not, I decide to play the hand a certain way based on what I hold. If I knew what my opponent held so early in the hand, I'm sure I would play a lot of the hands differently.

Anyways, good story about Cardone and Stu.

 

[catscradle]

...
Stu suffered from the same downfall of a lot of pool players. He had an addictive personality. People like Stu Ungar get addicted to the "rush" of gambling, then look for some other kind of rush when gambling isn't feeding the addiction.

I've always thought that drugs are a problem with poolplayers not just it goes with the subculture, but because the personalities drawn to the "easy money" and "action rush" of money pool have a certain predisposition towards addiction in all it's forms.

Russ

Although only a theory, it certainly sounds like a plausible connection to me.
I think that may be one type of addictive personality, that is, addicted to the rush. There is at least one other kind of addictive personality that is addicted to the "feel good" aspect, the escape. Then there is the person who is into the, for lack of a better word, "cultiness" of it. That is, they feel cool because the have "special knowledge" about paraphanalia (sp?), types of drugs, etc. Most are probably a combination of these factors and more.

 

[catscradle]

If you play a lot of gin, it's not too hard to remember all the cards played in an individual hand. So, I believe his mastery of gin was due to more than just a photographic memory. He had a knowledge or sense of the game's theories and strategies beyond the basic. With half of the deck gone (20 cards dealt and 3 or 4 discards) he knew or felt he knew exactly where his opponent stood in the hand. Pretty tough to deal with. More often than not, I decide to play the hand a certain way based on what I hold. If I knew what my opponent held so early in the hand, I'm sure I would play a lot of the hands differently.

Anyways, good story about Cardone and Stu.

Yes, I agree he must have had something special besides memory. In some poker games you see few or no cards other than your own, in those cases his photographic memory will not be that significant. I never played gin, but I've played a lot of card games and agree it is much more than remembering cards that have been played or luck.

 

[Russ Chewning]

Yes, I agree he must have had something special besides memory. In some poker games you see few or no cards other than your own, in those cases his photographic memory will not be that significant. I never played gin, but I've played a lot of card games and agree it is much more than remembering cards that have been played or luck.

While it certainly is more than having a photographic memory, having one does in fact give such a ridiculous advantage, it is unbelievable. And it helps in situations that might not at first be apparent.

If you can remember every single hand you ever played against a certain player, or heck, if you can even remember clearly how he has responded every hand within the last 4-5 hours of playing, it is almost like having an open book in front of you when your opponent gets into a pot with you.

I would say I am a fair poker player, and my wife used to be dubious when I would call out an opponent's NL Hold Em hand halfway through the hand. And we're not talking about simple hands to call, like AA, KK, etc.. When I got to be very consistent with a few select players on calling their hands correctly in certain situations, she asked me how I did it.

My answer? I just pay as hard attention as I can to every single play on every single hand.. Being able to effortlessly remember every hand from start to finish from the last 4 hours in poker is an unbeleivably huge advantage. It doesn't matter that you can't see most of the cards. It's the ones you do see that count.

Combine that with an innate logical ability to work out "why" your opponent played the way he did with the hand you saw him show down, and it enables you to extrapolate backwards in a new hand to figure out exactly what he has. And once you do that, the cards YOU have don't matter.

I've read the blogs of a few of the current crop of top professional poker players, and there is a lot of guesswork in certain situations, and sometimes it costs them unexpectedly. From what I heard about Stu, there wasn't much guesswork to his game. He KNEW what you had, he would TELL you what you had, and THEN he would BET INTO you.

You knew he couldn't have you beat every time he bet into you, but how do you call a guy if it's going to commit your whole stack, when he has TOLD you what you hold?

I think Stu won a lot because people were too scared to call him down with medium hands for fear of permanently crippling their chances to win the tournament. They figured it was safer to try to match up with him at the final table, so they would target everyone at the table BUT Stuey.

Russ

 

[hemicudas]

alright Hemi Ive calmed down a bit after the Action Report debacle. The story went like this. Billy and Stuey were at a rich guys place playing Gin.
They started playing and on one hand they ended up in a wash, a tie. There was 3 cards left in the deck and Stuey bent over and told Billy what the 3 unturned cards were.
The rich guy goes "Huh what did he say?". Billy not wanting the rich guy know how good Stuey played said "Oh he said you played real good." Stuey looked at Billy real pissed and wanted Billy to tell him what Stu had really said. Billy just smiled and said "deal". LOL

Thanks, Yo. Pretty close to what I figured. Especially the part where Billy has to assure their getting out with the cash. Billy has always been a brilliant gambler and a lot of fun to sweat, if not fade.

Senor, is right. Stu Ungar was not the only Gin player with a photographic memory but he was the best. No one in history knew what cards his opponent held faster than, Stu.

 

[Fatboy]

Stu played cards better than Efren plays pool, thats my opinion, he was so far ahead of the world, he had a photographic memory and x-ray vision.

Efren plays good gin too I watched him play (i cant rememmber now) in Hartimes and win, the guy he beat was a good gin player too. They played 3 or 4 hours, Efren won about $600.