IndyQ, the worst customer service response ever...

[blucollar]

The bottom line here is when it comes to amswering questions Roy is grade A douche like I said before..he feels that if he answers a question you should buy right that second. I quote jobs and often dont get them...thats business. Do I send those people nasty emails...no. I see them as a future prospect and treat their decision with respect. As far as asking for a better price...who cares, its the American way, we want the best deals we can get. I dont know Roy the person but Roy the businessman is a poor customer service
advocate. He is doing something right though. No doubt he has lost a few current and would be customers but he does not seem to care. Someone is still buying!

 

[JB Cases]

I never said I was happy that he went through any wrong-doings.I'm talking about what he said to Pockets.He might of done great deals with other people and no-one is disputing that but you can't deny the wrongs by saying all the good he has done.People who talk that type of shit to people face to face,end up on the floor before they even finish talking.Karma has nothing to do about perspective but has to do with
positive energy and by the look of this thread I haven't seen much of it!!
I am strictly talking about his emails to Pockets,nothing else.

I agree. I have said the same thing about this forum for years. People are absolutely much more civil in person precisely because of the fact that in person violence can happen.

From a sociological standpoint I find that the last 20 years are an interesting study in human behavior. It seems as if a lot of us have pent up rage inside that we vent through the distance-based interaction.

I can tell you from personal experience that I have had extremely hateful exchanges with people on these forums, people who took every license to berate me with every slur they could think and still get away with without being banned who then come up to me at shows as if nothing happened. For my part I also just smile and also don't act like a jerk in person because I know it will go bad and I will want to get violent.

I am on the phone with Roy now. We are discussing this and I have said again that I think he should be more diplomatic in his responses. I said that as in a bar fight the judge doesn't really care what was said prior to the first punch being thrown. The first punch determines guilt in the assault and similarly the first f-you in a conversation changes the tone unfavorably for the first person to say it.

Anyway, this can all be dissected 7 ways from Sunday. Roy is Roy and as I just told him if he handles these exchanges better then there is no need to defend them. When you don't act like a jerk then no one can ever change the conversation to being about how much of a jerk you are. Then the conversation stays on topic. (also learned from experience)

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

As far as asking for a better price...who cares, its the American way, we want the best deals we can get.

I am sure when you go to the doctor you bargain over their fees. Most Doctors I know automatically give guy in Hockey Jerseys a big discount. LOL

Try you bargaining with a traffic court judge, they will put you butt in jail, you will not get the chance to go buy a discount soap on the road, before they cuff you up for transport. LOL

 

[LC3]

BUT, I don't go around making offers to retailers. Although in many parts of the world negotiation is expected, here in the US I don't see it as acceptable to habitually make offers to retailers. On a rare occasion maybe...like when it is a return or open box item, something with a blemish or shelf wear, a floor model.

I agree. When you expect a small business retailer to offer you a deal on standard merchandise, you can easily come across as disrespecting his need to make a living. Maybe he can afford to shave off a few dollars, but constantly entertaining such haggling means that his take-home pay becomes even more variable. If I were in Roy's position, I'd be thinking, Do you mind if I make a living? If you don't like this luxurious case's price, how about choosing one just a little less luxurious? Of course, my reply would have been more tactful.

The customer is always right is a great attitude. But the customer simply isn't always right in practical terms. It is more of a guide for how to treat people than a rule for business. If one actually applied it as a strict rule one would be out of business in a hurry. I would take all of your stock for a buck.

A sign at a military post office said it best: "The customer is not always right, but is always the customer." Treat the customer with respect, even if it comes to the point that you obviously can't do business.

As old as the "gimme your lowest price" thing gets, you need to manage it with your business' best interests in mind. I would have thanked the customer for his inquiry, explained that my prices are the best I can do, and provided links to a few lower priced cases with a similar design. Each link would have included an explanation of why I'm recommending the case. I would have invited the customer to write back or call with any other questions. The e-mail would have closed with another thanks. Though this prospective customer might be a little short-sighted, I'd be thankful that he's coming to me and wouldn't squander the opportunity.

 

[JB Cases]

no... What jb has figured out that indyq has not is, the customer is always right... Jb's customer is indyq.

.................................................................

 

[JMW]

John, please tell Roy that perhaps he should put a banner up on each page of his website that says "All prices are firm and non negotionable. No discounts. Thank you".

This would go a long way in helping him avoid conflict. A simple fix!

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Funny thing is the more we talk about Roy & INDYQ, the more hit his web-page get. One might ask if Roy is such a terrible person to deal with why do the like of Steve Klein, Bluegrass, Schick, Nitti, Bender, Capone, and other top cuemakers sell to Roy. Could it be because Roy has money for inventory, and sells their cues?

 

[JB Cases]

John, please tell Roy that perhaps he should put a banner up on each page of his website that says "All prices are firm and non negotionable. No discounts. Thank you".

This would go a long way in helping him avoid conflict. A simple fix!

The thing is that the prices are negotiable. But Roy is very old school in how one goes about it.

Imagine you are in the old west and you go into the tack shop looking at the new saddles. You don't introduce yourself to the owner and once you pick out a saddle you march right up and ask him for his best discount. Now that saddle maker could take offense that you didn't even say hello before trying to get a discount and tell you to get out or he could be nice about it.

What if you spent a little time getting to know him, learn a little about his history, develop a relationship and then see if he doesn't offer you a discount on his own. Now you got your discount and more importantly you have a friend in the business.

 

[JMW]

The thing is that the prices are negotiable. But Roy is very old school in how one goes about it.

Imagine you are in the old west and you go into the tack shop looking at the new saddles. You don't introduce yourself to the owner and once you pick out a saddle you march right up and ask him for his best discount. Now that saddle maker could take offense that you didn't even say hello before trying to get a discount and tell you to get out or he could be nice about it.

What if you spent a little time getting to know him, learn a little about his history, develop a relationship and then see if he doesn't offer you a discount on his own. Now you got your discount and more importantly you have a friend in the business.

Good point and I agree. That could explain why he has issues with email. It is very impersonal and many folks don't even use the phone any more. But he should still not call anyone names. It's poor human behavior much less bad business behavior. Unacceptable to me and I won't deal with people like that. My choice, my decision and I will pay more somewhere else than to deal with the likes of Roy. Life's to short to tolerate abusive people.

 

[ribdoner]

The thing is that the prices are negotiable. But Roy is very old school in how one goes about it.

Imagine you are in the old west and you go into the tack shop looking at the new saddles. You don't introduce yourself to the owner and once you pick out a saddle you march right up and ask him for his best discount. Now that saddle maker could take offense that you didn't even say hello before trying to get a discount and tell you to get out or he could be nice about it.

What if you spent a little time getting to know him, learn a little about his history, develop a relationship and then see if he doesn't offer you a discount on his own. Now you got your discount and more importantly you have a friend in the business.

Some don't have the time or energy for foreplay.

In biz, as in most endeavers, i prefer to cut to the chase.

i'm also of the opinion that ole Roy (lol, that was Sam Walton's dogs name) suffered his beating as retribution for a real or perceived transgression.

wonder if sam/tommy/ed/eddie could shed some light on that

 

[blucollar]

I am sure when you go to the doctor you bargain over their fees. Most Doctors I know automatically give guy in Hockey Jerseys a big discount. LOL

Try you bargaining with a traffic court judge, they will put you butt in jail, you will not get the chance to go buy a discount soap on the road, before they cuff you up for transport. LOL

Traffic court judges dont sell anything..why would I ask for a bargain?

 

[scsuxci]

I am sure when you go to the doctor you bargain over their fees. Most Doctors I know automatically give guy in Hockey Jerseys a big discount. LOL

Try you bargaining with a traffic court judge, they will put you butt in jail, you will not get the chance to go buy a discount soap on the road, before they cuff you up for transport. LOL

Are you serious?Thousands a people a year go to traffic court and get there fines lowered by talking to
the Crown and trying to come up with a deal not to lose any points or payment plans if the fine is high and can't be paid with one lump sum.
That analogy is not even close to being true but being on a form where people sell ,trade,and barter new and used Billiard goods isn't anything new.
It just comes down to common courtesy,anyone who might be against that is either wanting to argue for the hell of it or just as ignorant
as the guy being the ignoramus.

 

[JB Cases]

Some don't have the time or energy for foreplay.

In biz, as in most endeavers, i prefer to cut to the chase.

i'm also of the opinion that ole Roy (lol, that was Sam Walton's dogs name) suffered his beating as retribution for a real or perceived transgression.

wonder if sam/tommy/ed/eddie could shed some light on that

The beating was in no way related to Roy's billiard business unless you have some evidence to the contrary.

Well if you don't have time/energy for foreplay then don't get emotional hurt when you're told to go away. I mean everything has two sides to it.

Do we as people walk around asking for discounts on everything we buy? Are we entitled to discounts from other people in the business simply by virtue of being in the same industry?

Should I expect Ivan Lee to cut me a deal on Simonis cloth every time I need a cut for my table? Since I am a leather worker should I be able to walk into the LV store on 5th avenue and ask (demand) their best price and take offense if they aren't "nice" when asking me to leave?

In life foreplay often goes a long way to ultimate satisfaction while cutting to the chase often leaves one or both parties unhappy about the interaction.

 

[ribdoner]

The beating was in no way related to Roy's billiard business unless you have some evidence to the contrary.

as stated an "opinion", NO evidence

Well if you don't have time/energy for foreplay then don't get emotional hurt when you're told to go away. I mean everything has two sides to it.

the insecure can't handle rejection

Do we as people walk around asking for discounts on everything we buy? Are we entitled to discounts from other people in the business simply by virtue of being in the same industry?

we're entitled to what we can negotiate

Should I expect Ivan Lee to cut me a deal on Simonis cloth every time I need a cut for my table? Since I am a leather worker should I be able to walk into the LV store on 5th avenue and ask (demand) their best price and take offense if they aren't "nice" when asking me to leave?

ask for, YES...in addition you should not be insulted if they decline

In life foreplay often goes a long way to ultimate satisfaction while cutting to the chase often leaves one or both parties unhappy about the interaction.

i guarantee satisfaction, foreplay or not

 

[blucollar]

Also, after rereading this thread, I dont think Mr. Barton is "sticking" up for Roy at all. Maybe just trying to pass along a little inside info on how Roys mind works but by no means trying to lessen the impact of Roys rants...I gotta tell ya..this new rainbows and cotton candy JB is kinda scaring me. I miss the old JB that woulda handed out a nice big verbal whoopin by now....what the hell!

 

[JB Cases]

i guarantee satisfaction, foreplay or not

I doubt that. Satisfaction depends on perspective. If I want something and you are not willing to give it up then you aren't satisfying my desires.

But I agree that you are entitled to what you can negotiate. But all interaction is not grounds for negotiation. We don't negotiate the price of gas with the station owner, we don't negotiate the price of bread with the grocer. But somehow we feel that it's perfectly ok to ask the owner of a retail store for a discount on a pool cue.

I don't think it's necessarily bad form to ask for a lower price. I just simply think that when you are asking for a discount there is a way to do it that greases the process. We could get into all sorts of discussion on the economics of discounting and why it's often more harmful to the seller than it is beneficial to the buyer but that's a discussion for another time. The point here is that when one party wants to pay less it's generally helpful to not anger the party you want to buy from.

And of course conversely, the flies/honey proverb applies equally in both directions...

 

[JC]

So you are thinking that someone hired a thug to invade Roy's house, hold a gun to Roy's head, threaten Roy's secretary, beat and rob Roy all because Roy said some mean things in an email exchange? And this would be a proper response?

If extreme violence is a proper response to being berated on the net then there are many people on my list who are due for some extreme violent beatings. I guess then that if I started hiring thugs to beat up people we all know on this forum that you all would be cool with that since it's in response to the mean things that they have said to me? Well great then I am on the way over to Thugs-R-Us right now to arrange some ass-whippings.........

The fact is that this was a random act of violence where a deranged asshole rang the bell at Roy's business and the secretary buzzed him in thinking it was the delivery person. But the time she realized it was the wrong person he had already gotten a foot in the door and forced his way in holding Roy and her hostage at gunpoint. Roy tried to protect her and was beaten mercilessly and savagely for that.

So if it makes people here feel better to think that Roy deserved this go ahead and feel that way. No one can look into your heart and determine what your character is. For myself I often have thought that if something bad were to happen to the people who have gone out of their way to be asses to me then it would make me happy. In fact the few times that something awful has actually happened to someone I have had words with I have felt incredibly guilty for wishing misfortune on them.

I suspect most of us here are the same way. It's easy to say so-and-so deserved that because of unrelated actions, we all want closure and to believe that the universe provides punishment - and MAYBE it does - but I rather doubt that we all really want to live in an Eye-For-An-Eye world because that sort of world feeds on itself. Wishing a beating for someone who is mean in words is itself a breach of karma and in a universe where there is an accounting you are bringing down the karmic heat by escalating psychological violence into actual violence no matter how much you feel it might be justified.

I have no dog in this fight John but based on the MANY negative responses I have read here, yes I think it's likely someone took retribution against the man. I neither wish the guy ill nor defend him against it. It's clear to me however that his antics go way beyond berating someone in an E-mail. Many here in this thread have voiced breach of what they paid for along with added E-mail abuse. When you put the two together enough times you are soon enough likely to encounter someone who will gladly escalate things. It's called "insult to injury". Thugs aren't all that expensive if you run in the right circles. What I find sad is that in spite of the near death warning he seems to just carry on with business as usual apparently. Insanity=doing the same thing and expecting different results. Next time the thugs will likely be just a bit less careful or he will be a bit less lucky. You can't go through life pissing people off constantly without a price. If all these stories come out of the woodwork here in this internet thread then how many are there out there really?

JC

 

[JC]

But I agree that you are entitled to what you can negotiate. But all interaction is not grounds for negotiation. We don't negotiate the price of gas with the station owner, we don't negotiate the price of bread with the grocer. But somehow we feel that it's perfectly ok to ask the owner of a retail store for a discount on a pool cue.

An internet site where you pay by credit card and receive your merchandise in the mail is not a "retail store". Especially when the stuff is shipped out of some guy's house. Retail locations have retail overhead. They generally exist in locations zoned for commerce which adds to the expense. Internet outlets do not. That's why their prices are negotiable much of the time and lower than at the brick and mortar place's other times.

JC

 

[JB Cases]

An internet site where you pay by credit card and receive your merchandise in the mail is not a "retail store". Especially when the stuff is shipped out of some guy's house. Retail locations have retail overhead. They generally exist in locations zoned for commerce which adds to the expense. Internet outlets do not. That's why their prices are negotiable much of the time and lower than at the brick and mortar place's other times.

JC

Actually this is not correct. An internet site is simply an internet site. Unless the site identifies itself a home-based business the viewer really has zero way to know what the setup is. There is nothing at Roy's website that indicates that his is a home-based business. And beyond that for 14 years Roy maintained a fully stocked shop in a commercial business with a sign outside. He built himself an apartment above that store but it was a rented store.

Beyond that there is no reason to assume that just because someone has a home based business that they are able or should be wiling to give discounts on the prices they list.

There are millions of internet stores out there where almost none of us would attempt to negotiate the price of the items we are interested in. As they say familiarity breeds contempt. Perhaps in our industry it's simply become commonplace to think we know everything about everyone's business and therefore we can dictate to them what they should be willing to sell for. I am not sure but I feel that the billiard industry in particular is less professional than other industries and therefore consumers take much more license in expecting concessions than they do in more professional and less familiar settings

I could go on all day with examples since I am intimately familiar with all aspects of the billiard business from being a trunker to owning a pool room, owner of a retail store, owner of internet sites, to employee of an internet retailer, to now owning my own production shop. If you want real nuts and bolts from the inside I have them.

 

[JB Cases]

I have no dog in this fight John but based on the MANY negative responses I have read here, yes I think it's likely someone took retribution against the man. I neither wish the guy ill nor defend him against it. It's clear to me however that his antics go way beyond berating someone in an E-mail. Many here in this thread have voiced breach of what they paid for along with added E-mail abuse. When you put the two together enough times you are soon enough likely to encounter someone who will gladly escalate things. It's called "insult to injury". Thugs aren't all that expensive if you run in the right circles. What I find sad is that in spite of the near death warning he seems to just carry on with business as usual apparently. Insanity=doing the same thing and expecting different results. Next time the thugs will likely be just a bit less careful or he will be a bit less lucky. You can't go through life pissing people off constantly without a price. If all these stories come out of the woodwork here in this internet thread then how many are there out there really?

JC

Well it's highly doubtful that someone hired a guy to do this. If they did then they are way more despicable than Roy has ever been to anyone. I think it's fun for some people to imagine that this was a willful act of retribution to satisfy their own impulses. But in reality this was a random act where the perpetrator was looking to get into any business or dwelling that he could and rob them.

Look no one here is saying Roy is blameless for being verbally abusive to people. If I could snap my fingers and change one thing about him then it would be this. He is a brilliant man who does business the old fashioned way. Sadly he has this perpetually pissed off thing about people who don't respect common courtesy and protocol from his perspective. I have tried to explain to him that the world is less formal now and it's not going to change back.

All I want to do is crush the idea that Roy was accosted and left for dead BECAUSE of his way of dealing with some people. The two things are not physically related. Maybe karmically they are but that's for the universe to figure out. I don't think that karmically we should be taking any pleasure in the misfortune of others even though we probably all do it on some level.