inlay equip what to buy?
- Thread starter Dman
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bandido said:
I guess I'm just lucky. I have one of the 1st inlay machines Chris made. I still have the original rotational cutting device. It's made me a lot of money & I can't complain about the accuracy either. Good work Chris...JER
> I read an article in the Stew-Mac guitar repair catalog once that talked about using the Dremel as a way to do inlays in necks and bridges. He also talked about the problems with the housing,and ways to clean up and correct the problem areas. He also concluded that for guitar work,the stock bearings were excellent.
> This is one aspiring cuemaker that can most certainly cut a screw,as well as read any analog measuring device,other than an comparator,and that's because I've never seen one. Digital is nice,but you have to crawl before you can walk if you plan on running eventually.
> Craftsmanship still rules.
> CNC is just a way to make things more precise and make you more productive. Those that use it as a crutch will eventually be extinct,unless they go the mass-production McD route,but who has the cash to front an operation like that?
> Once I graduate with Machinist I,I plan on trying to apply for a job at McD. Who would be a better potential employee than a hardcore player with machinist skills that can program basic CNC?
> The manual machine shops are indeed drying right up,and all kinds of people in the workplace that simply can't do manual. There is a CNC programmer that locally does a LOT of tire mold work at a shop that does nothing BUT Goodyear tire molds and other machine work,and also teaches a 2 yr college course on CNC Theory and Application,according to the brochure. According to eyewitnesses,the guy can't even turn a Bridgeport mill on and engage the feed,but can do literally anything he wants with a great big Haas machining center or a Cincinatti CNC lathe. Figure that one out,my instructor said that it's virtually impossible,and wanted to meet the guy. I wish I had gotten turned on by machine work much earlier in life,there are a LOT of old guys around here I could learn from. One is my grandfather,an 40 yr tool and die maker for Goodyear Aerospace,the only one I've ever heard of that had security clearance. Tommy D.
> This is one aspiring cuemaker that can most certainly cut a screw,as well as read any analog measuring device,other than an comparator,and that's because I've never seen one. Digital is nice,but you have to crawl before you can walk if you plan on running eventually.
> Craftsmanship still rules.
> CNC is just a way to make things more precise and make you more productive. Those that use it as a crutch will eventually be extinct,unless they go the mass-production McD route,but who has the cash to front an operation like that?
> Once I graduate with Machinist I,I plan on trying to apply for a job at McD. Who would be a better potential employee than a hardcore player with machinist skills that can program basic CNC?
> The manual machine shops are indeed drying right up,and all kinds of people in the workplace that simply can't do manual. There is a CNC programmer that locally does a LOT of tire mold work at a shop that does nothing BUT Goodyear tire molds and other machine work,and also teaches a 2 yr college course on CNC Theory and Application,according to the brochure. According to eyewitnesses,the guy can't even turn a Bridgeport mill on and engage the feed,but can do literally anything he wants with a great big Haas machining center or a Cincinatti CNC lathe. Figure that one out,my instructor said that it's virtually impossible,and wanted to meet the guy. I wish I had gotten turned on by machine work much earlier in life,there are a LOT of old guys around here I could learn from. One is my grandfather,an 40 yr tool and die maker for Goodyear Aerospace,the only one I've ever heard of that had security clearance. Tommy D.
Not lucky but rather one of the smart ones who don't over-FEED past the capacity of the Dremel spindle. Like I said, the Dremel can breakdown when overdriven and its not hard to do that since its the lightest capacity spindle used in this trade.BLACKHEARTCUES said:
rhncue said:
Thank you Dick!
Look old-schoolers, it's really this simple; TECHNOLOGY & METHODOLOGY CHANGE. PERIOD. You guys spend so much time bickering about equipment it's a wonder that you ever build any cues! J/K, but seriously, the only reason to resist change is fear.
Chris, it's not about how you go about building the cue. I could care less if your joint was put in by hand or by machine as long as it runs true. The real art of cuebuilding is in having an artistic sense, being able to put together new and interesting designs and patterns, and hand selecting the perfect materials and pieces of wood to make it happen.
My only real disappointment with the CNC technology is the total lack of creativity. If you are going to pull out all the stops and buy a 25k machine, then pull out all the stops when it comes to your designs as well! It is rare to see a cue design that actually uses the 4th axis. Why invest thousands into a machine that you are going to use to produce the same basic cues as everyone else?
JMHO.
cueman said:
Well put!
Paul
class act said:
That may be true but I've had the unfortunately pleasure of hitting with some beautiful cues that were put together with new and interesting designs and patterns but hit like S**T.
The real art of cue building is understanding your customer's wants & needs, knowing the assets & liabilities of your materials you’re using and then applying your craftsmanship to find the natural balance between the two.
The best cue I EVER hit with was a Martin; it had no points, inlay or rings other than joint collars and a butt cap. The most artistic thing about the cue was the way he signed the owners name on the moderately figured piece of Birdseye used on the butt sleeve.
I’d gladly take that cue over anything I’ve played in the last ten years.
IMHO
Paul
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class act said:
Bingo! That's it right there.... all the machines in the world will not make you build a perfect cue. It take a human with some grey matter to make it produce something exceptional. You buy a cnc and just make basic designs, you are competing with the mass-production shops, and guess who's going to win?
CNC doesn't fix crappy wood or help make cues hit better.Sheldon said:
The market is already saturated with heavily cnc'd cues.
Thankfully the ones that are reputed to hit very well still command good demand.
hey Joe
Joey, it kind of sounds like you're anti-CNC ... Did I get the right impression, and if so, why? From reading all of your posts, I though of you as an embracer of new technology.....
For some reason or another it seems as if the anti-CNC cuemakers relate ALL CNC made cues to be Chinese quality. There are many that use CNC to create one-of-a-kind beautiful cues that play like the pristine instruments that they are.
Joey, it kind of sounds like you're anti-CNC ... Did I get the right impression, and if so, why? From reading all of your posts, I though of you as an embracer of new technology.....
For some reason or another it seems as if the anti-CNC cuemakers relate ALL CNC made cues to be Chinese quality. There are many that use CNC to create one-of-a-kind beautiful cues that play like the pristine instruments that they are.
I'm not anti-cnc. I don't like cookie-cutter cues though. The ones that makers already have the g-codes for and they just keep making the same model with the same material even.class act said:
What I was alluding to was cnc doesn't really fix crappy hitting cues.
Crappy woods and loose construction=bad hitting cues.
JoeyInCali said:I'm not anti-cnc. I don't like cookie-cutter cues though. The ones that makers already have the g-codes for and they just keep making the same model with the same material even.
What I was alluding to was cnc doesn't really fix crappy hitting cues.
Crappy woods and loose construction=bad hitting cues.
Most "Cookie Cutter" cues, I would say, are made on a Panto-mill. With a CAD program you have an unlimited supply of different inlays. If it can be drawn, it can be made. A person can take a simple diamond and make it into hundreds of different sizes just by recamming. With a Panto-mill your creativity is limited to what patterns you have had made or are willing to have made at a price and this price certainly can run into many times the expense of a whole CNC outfit. With hard patterns, economics demand that they be used in numerous cues to pay for their expense. The more hard patterns you have the more diversity your cues may have. It is much harder building a custom cue, with a design that the customer wants, using a Panto-mill as you are limited to what inlays you can install.
CNC capabilities have absolutely nothing to do with cue construction other than furnishing the user the ability for a good fit, easier, than by hand. Just having this ability does not insure that it will be used. Poor fit, unstable wood, poor materials and poor craftsmanship can be seen in any cue no matter what machinery was used to build it. The builders expertise, attention to detail and judgement determine the outcome.
Dick
That's right!
I am a firm believer that if you were to give 5-10 people the same materials and equipment, you will come up with 5-10 different designs/ products.
Just because you can afford CNC, IVORY, and such, putting a huge block of ivory in a cue does not make you an artist
There ARE true artists in this business, and their work definately separates them from the rest of the feild, whether they panto, cnc, hand-cut, or chew 'em in
IMO.
Chris
I am a firm believer that if you were to give 5-10 people the same materials and equipment, you will come up with 5-10 different designs/ products.
Just because you can afford CNC, IVORY, and such, putting a huge block of ivory in a cue does not make you an artist
There ARE true artists in this business, and their work definately separates them from the rest of the feild, whether they panto, cnc, hand-cut, or chew 'em in
IMO.
Chris
class act said:
One point of view...
It sure seems you are infactuated with the look of a cue,
which, of course, you have every right to be. But remember, there
are plenty of cue buyers and builders who view cues
as implements for bumping balls into holes with
To them, all this emphasis on 'creativity of design' is meaningless.
I have one good customer, an older guy, who uses the term
'cue gushers' to describe the fasination with ornamentation.
the feedback I get from others like him, is they prefer traditional
looking cues. Mostly they don't care HOW the cue is made
If you are going to make many cues, using CNC technology
will make you much more productive. The reasons are a bit
long to go into here
Dale Pierce
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I think he was referring to the artistic side of cue building.pdcue said:
I don't think anyone here is trying to say that an intricate cue with advanced designs is going to hit any better than a well built sneaky pete. A custom cuemaker has got to be able to create something beyond just a good hitting cue if he expects to make enough $ to buy more materials. People will pay a hell of a lot more for looks than for hit. The hit is taken for granted, and only a few cuemakers can charge extra for it.
ball bumoer?
Dale,
I've personally seen a master cueist run 50 and out with a rounded broomstick handle.
I didn't want to touch this subject with a 1000' pole, because HIT is SUBJECTIVE. You either build a good cue or you don't. Whether or not it appeals to the masses is a totally different story.
A pool cue is a tool. I assumed it was a given that this tool perform a specific function. If you are trying to tell me that there are no CNC'd cues on the market that perform at least as well as a traditionally built cue... I'll just stop wasting my time right now. It's obvious that some closed minds are against embracing technology.
Sheldon,
You got it! A successful cuemaker does two things, #1 they have to build a damn good hitting cue, #2 they have to create a striking piece of artwork that attracts buyers AND collectors.
It's not necessarily that the hit is taken for granted... It's more of an expectation if I'm paying for anything built with personal attention from the maker. I expect, no, DEMAND a properly constructed tool with no rattle, buzz or other atrocities if I'm going to spend any $$$ for it. (BTW, I have quite a collection from many of the greats, and my personal favorite is still my CNC Cog )
Dale,
I've personally seen a master cueist run 50 and out with a rounded broomstick handle.
I didn't want to touch this subject with a 1000' pole, because HIT is SUBJECTIVE. You either build a good cue or you don't. Whether or not it appeals to the masses is a totally different story.
A pool cue is a tool. I assumed it was a given that this tool perform a specific function. If you are trying to tell me that there are no CNC'd cues on the market that perform at least as well as a traditionally built cue... I'll just stop wasting my time right now. It's obvious that some closed minds are against embracing technology.
Sheldon,
You got it! A successful cuemaker does two things, #1 they have to build a damn good hitting cue, #2 they have to create a striking piece of artwork that attracts buyers AND collectors.
It's not necessarily that the hit is taken for granted... It's more of an expectation if I'm paying for anything built with personal attention from the maker. I expect, no, DEMAND a properly constructed tool with no rattle, buzz or other atrocities if I'm going to spend any $$$ for it. (BTW, I have quite a collection from many of the greats, and my personal favorite is still my CNC Cog
)
I have a customer that has ordered four cues from three different guys in my area within three years. Then he comes to me and asks me if I can build him a cue. Now I know that he's just bought a cue from another local Cuemaker who is not only my competition, but he's also a good friend. I have been to his shop while this cue was under construction and have no doubt that it would hold up to any scrutiny. So I ask this customer what's wrong with the cue you just bought from Jerry, or more importantly I ask, what's not right with it, or is it that you are just into collecting? His reply was that the hit was not what he was looking for.
So I asked; What are you looking for?
He responds:
I wants a cue with six coco points with orange and a black veneers into Tulipwood. Brown linen rings in the joint and butt, the rings have to have twelve checks of orange/black/orange veneers. It also has to have notched pearl diamonds in each point. Then he goes on to describe the butt and the wrap sections.
So I stop him there and say "Lets focus on the hit of the cue before we talk about the look".
To which he responds;
Watdayamean?
I say: Well lets start at the tip, what kind of tip do you want?
He says: What's a good tip?
I say: What kind of tip are you playing with now?
He says: Whatever this is, as he pulls out one of his shafts.
I say: Ok let's comeback to the tip. What kind of ferrule material do you want?
He says: I want White ferrules!
I say: OOOOOKKKKKAAAAAYYYYYYY! Let's come back to that too. What about a shaft taper?
He says: Yes!
I say: Yes what?
He says: Yes, I want a tapered shaft!
I say: Yes, but what kind of taper?
He says: The good kind!
I say: I can't make you a cue.
He says: Why not?
I say: Because I don't know what you're looking for!
He says: I wants a cue with six coco points with orange and a black veneers into Tulipwood. Brown linen rings in the joint and butt, the rings have to have twelve checks of orange/black/orange veneers. It also has to have notched pearl diamonds in each point. Then he goes on to describe the butt and the wrap sections.
I'd rather make ten $500 cues for players who know what they need, instead of one $5000 cue for someone who can afford anything he wants.
Paul
So I asked; What are you looking for?
He responds:
I wants a cue with six coco points with orange and a black veneers into Tulipwood. Brown linen rings in the joint and butt, the rings have to have twelve checks of orange/black/orange veneers. It also has to have notched pearl diamonds in each point. Then he goes on to describe the butt and the wrap sections.
So I stop him there and say "Lets focus on the hit of the cue before we talk about the look".
To which he responds;
Watdayamean?
I say: Well lets start at the tip, what kind of tip do you want?
He says: What's a good tip?
I say: What kind of tip are you playing with now?
He says: Whatever this is, as he pulls out one of his shafts.
I say: Ok let's comeback to the tip. What kind of ferrule material do you want?
He says: I want White ferrules!
I say: OOOOOKKKKKAAAAAYYYYYYY! Let's come back to that too. What about a shaft taper?
He says: Yes!
I say: Yes what?
He says: Yes, I want a tapered shaft!
I say: Yes, but what kind of taper?
He says: The good kind!
I say: I can't make you a cue.
He says: Why not?
I say: Because I don't know what you're looking for!
He says: I wants a cue with six coco points with orange and a black veneers into Tulipwood. Brown linen rings in the joint and butt, the rings have to have twelve checks of orange/black/orange veneers. It also has to have notched pearl diamonds in each point. Then he goes on to describe the butt and the wrap sections.
I'd rather make ten $500 cues for players who know what they need, instead of one $5000 cue for someone who can afford anything he wants.
Paul
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class act said:
Yes, perhaps a better choice of words would have been: "The hit should be a given." As far as construction goes, I've always believed that the custom maker has to have as big of an edge over the production shop as possible. This means minute attention to detail, and very strict material quality standards.