Inside vs Outside Throw Question?

Inside Throw Effect

  • Inside throws less than outside

    Votes: 19 48.7%

  • Inside throws the same as outside

    Votes: 14 35.9%

  • Inside throws more than outside

    Votes: 6 15.4%
  • Total voters
    39
elvicash

elvicash

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was at the poolroom last night and the talking got on the subject of english, best way to hit certain shots etc. I threw into the mix that I had been told by Ray Martin World Champion player that outside english had more effect on throwing a ball and inside english had less of a throw effect. Certain fairly knowledgable players at the poolroom did not believe that at all saying they would throw the same for the same hit same spin rate.

Here is the question if you have a half ball hit ~30 deg cut shot will they be the same throw. They are suggesting outside results in perhaps 33-35 deg with outside english and the cut would 27-28 perhaps less with inside english.

Per Ray Martin the resulting angle is effected very little with inside unless the hit is very thick and even then much less than with outside. Also slow speeds allow the thick hit to be effected some what by inside.

This is not for bank shots only the angle created by cueball contact and left/right spin.

So can inside throw as much as outside or is the throw effect lessened or nill when using inside.
 
This is gonna

sound a lil weird but,..........................

Assuming using inside/outside throw on the same style of shot like a 30 deg. cut shot to the corner,(ie inside for left 30 cut, outside for a right 30 cut),you might get a little less throw on the inside shot as you are trying to make the OB curl inward on itself briefly before it travels its path of aim. The outside shot would have the natural roll.This would be assuming the exact same cue-speed & stroke. Nothing scientific here, just a logical thought.
I'd like to know what Dr. Dave has to say about it.
 
I've never heard Ray Martin say that before, but every word of it matches what I've found in my personal experience.
I use inside english a lot in my style of play and for cut shots with inside, I make no adjustments for throw, but I do have to adjust( (aim thick) with outside english.
 
Outside spin cancels throw, inside generally doesn't.

I like to think of the gearing effect happening between balls. An outside spin shot meshes well with the object ball, the gears spin nicely. With inside spin, that doesn't happen. Gears spin against each other, changing the induced throw angle, and calling for a thinner hit.
 
Ray knows what he's talking about relative to pool. maybe anything else he talks about, but certainly when it comes to pool.
 
There is a pretty well-developed theory on this and experiments have confirmed the theory. The bottom line is: it depends. It helps to know the theory during practice so you can understand what might have caused a shot to miss. In play, you have to go with your experience.

Various results:

Outside english can change the cut angle by up to about 12 degrees, while inside english can get less than half of that.

Throw varies with the condition and material of the balls.

Throw varies with speed.

Throw varies if you add draw or follow.

If you add inside english to a shot, it might throw less than a simple stun shot.

Between a little outside and no outside, the shot with a little might throw more.

These results and the reasons for them are described in the usual places.
 
Great answer, Bob.
Having rules of thumb helps, but with has so many variables affecting each shot, we shouldn't lock ourselves into thinking in absolute rules and observe more closely to understand and adjust to what is actually happening on the table.
 
Well, with inside english, lets say we are cutting to the right, inside would be right hand english. The rub of the balls wants to send the OB to the left to begin with, now adding inside english sort of compliments that and adds to it.

Now outside english the CB rolls off the OB so it also sort of negates the rub. :shrug:

Ya wanna say logically ... the same, but there are additional forces in play. It seems like less cause it sort of straightens the angle.

Lets see what Bob J. says :)
 
Last edited:
The obligatory Dr. Dave link.

The last thing I came to understand about throw, which eluded me for years is...
inside english can actually decrease collision-induced throw (CIT).
Because the cue ball is spinning, it's in contact with the object ball for a shorter time,
and that can actually result in less friction than if it the cue ball were just sliding.

At small cut angles, inside english and CIT join forces to throw the ball a lot.
But at larger cut angles, inside actually results in less CIT (but you may not notice
because the inside caused the ball to undercut anyway).

Outside (the right amount of it) can cause the CB to stay in contact with the OB for a longer
time as it sort of rolls across the face of the object ball rather than sliding across it.
Like two gears meshing. This can result in pretty strong throw (but you may not notice because
the outside spin cancelled the CIT, resulting in a ball that doesn't seem to throw at all).

The experiments also found that outside is much more sensitive to tip placement.
The number of degrees you'll overcut, if you accidentally add more outside...
is greater than the number of degrees you'll undercut, if you accidentally add more inside.

If I had to just pick on english that generally throws more, I'd say outside, because
it can result in longer contact time with the OB and seems to be more sensitive to tip placement.
 
This is interesting. Mike Sigel once told several of us that he hits all shots with a slight amount of outside english. He said this is to reduce cling. He said it is only the slightest amount. You would not see much if any english effect when the cue ball hits a rail.
 
kaznj said:
This is interesting. Mike Sigel once told several of us that he hits all shots with a slight amount of outside english. He said this is to reduce cling. He said it is only the slightest amount. You would not see much if any english effect when the cue ball hits a rail.
Click to expand...
The amount needed to get "gearing" contact, where the surface of the cue ball is not rubbing to either the right or left when it contacts the object ball, is often more than "the slightest amount." For a half-ball shot, I think it will require about a tip of outside. Sigel may have been going for something other than gearing contact, but that's what you need to totally avoid cling.
 
But Bob, what do you think about original question? The 2 englishes are working against (or with) other forces as I mentioned in the other post. So how would that affect the net result relative to the original question?
 
3andstop said:
But Bob, what do you think about original question? The 2 englishes are working against (or with) other forces as I mentioned in the other post. So how would that affect the net result relative to the original question?
Click to expand...

Thick hits and/or slower speeds are where inside spin has more effect but not as much and definitely IMHO never more than outside English. rolling or drawing will also effect the throw effect. As the hit gets past a 3/4 hit then effect of inside's ability rapidly diminishes relative to the same hit with outside. I think this has to do with the statics/dynamics of the resisting body (object ball) offering enough resistance in that short time of ball to ball contact such that the inside spin can take effect and alter or throw the resulting angle of the object ball. Outside English seems to have more of a mechanical advantage for some reason. Perhaps Dr Dave can explain the reason they work differently.
 
For me, outside english makes many shots play natural. By that, I mean that it cancels the visual illusion (for lack of a better term). So I can aim the CB for the contact point on the OB. The throw compensates for hitting the OB thicker. Usually use a touch of bottom. This means that I don't have to aim at a point away from the object ball (like with ghost ball training). This takes away the subjectivity of aiming. I vary the amount of bottom and sidespin as an aiming device.

Also, shots with less cut (thicker hits), I can aim completely full hits and add differing amounts of side spin (left or right) to throw the ball in a direction control with accuracy. Usually use a touch of bottom. This only helps me when I'm shooting a shot that exact shape is less important.

Never really understood that I did this until I took some lessons with aiming systems and then watched a video when SVB said something to the effect of anyone shooting in a match with enormous pressure w/out some type of system would be difficult. And someone else said that everyone has developed an aiming system, whether they could accurately put it into words or not. Also, the person may not realize, or even call it an aiming system. But everyone has to have a reason to aim at a certain spot.
 
Inside english helps on some thin cuts.

Also, inside english can help me aim without compensating for deflection or spin or aiming for a subject spot on some thin cuts. By hitting side spin (w or w/out top or bottom) can help by aiming at the center of CB for contact point. The inside english causes deflection and spin that compensate for aiming thick on the shot. This only works for a small number of shots. This one, I try to stay away from because I haven't really figured out the distance and angles very well. If possible, I rely on center top with parallel aiming.
 
Bob Jewett said:
The amount needed to get "gearing" contact, where the surface of the cue ball is not rubbing to either the right or left when it contacts the object ball, is often more than "the slightest amount." For a half-ball shot, I think it will require about a tip of outside. Sigel may have been going for something other than gearing contact, but that's what you need to totally avoid cling.
Click to expand...
I just thought of (or maybe remembered) a way you can see when you have just the right amount of outside to get the gearing effect and perfectly cancel throw and avoid cling. Set up the cut shot angle you want to test for using a stripe as the object ball. Line the stripe up straight at the pocket. If you get the magic amount of side, the stripe will roll perfectly towards the pocket. If you have too much or too little, the stripe will wobble on the way to the pocket. The reason this test works is that any time there is throw on the object ball, there is also transferred side spin.
 
3andstop said:
But Bob, what do you think about original question? The 2 englishes are working against (or with) other forces as I mentioned in the other post. So how would that affect the net result relative to the original question?
Click to expand...

Sometimes inside will throw more than outside. Sometimes it will throw the same. Sometimes it will throw less. The answer depends on exactly which shot you are talking about and the speed and amount of side spin. Outside english can result in a much wider range of throws and may throw in either direction or not at all, but that depends on exactly how you hit the ball.

Inside english will always throw in the too full direction.
 
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