Installing a ferrule without a tenon

[JC]

There absolutely is, in theory, the possibility of the shaft being stronger. If the glue bond is stronger (and it usually is) than the wood, and the glue bond is complete, this will be stronger than the original wood.

In practice, it is likely that the glue joint isn't perfect and that stress risers exist.

I am an engineer and this tracks based on my knowledge of woodworking and engineering.

I suppose but no matter how well you glue that tenon into the hollowed out shaft wood it's going to still be susceptible to splitting with the grain line where it's now thin walled.

I don't know if you saw the glue up video I posted here a while ago https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/very-interesting-video-about-glue-joints.534642/ but it turns out glue is only stronger than edge grain which is why the wood breaks first when glued edge to edge. Glue is not however stronger than the grain running the other way or a board could be glued end to end and break in the middle first. We all know this isn't remotely true no matter what glue you use. Glue two 2x4s together on the end grains and stand in the middle and see where the board breaks. Oddly the video proved that the glue joint is in fact as strong gluing end grains together as edge grain and takes just as much force to break the glue joint either direciton. The wood just breaks first edge grain because most species are quite weak there. Which is why you can split wood with an axe but have to chip it out the other direction to cut it down.

 

[JC]

so shaft blanks are normally 30 inches........ if a customer wants a 31 inch shaft.......... I finish the shaft and drill in about a inch or an inch and a half with a 5/16 drill............. I turn a tenon out of a scrap maple shaft and epoxy in the new tenon and leave an inch out for the ferrule............ it certainly is stronger than the original shaft and I have done many of these and some players break with them and never a failure

Kim

Kim it's strong enough to do the job but using a 31 inch blank with a native tenon is WAY stronger. For you to say that it's stronger than a normal tenon is just you saying that. But you saying it doesn't make it so.

Getting a longer shaft blank would be the best way to build that shaft. What you do is ok though. I would get longer wood personally and have some 32" blanks hanging around

 

[billsey]

My thought is the shaft strength is going to be proportional to the surface area of the wooden portion of the shaft. If the drilled hole takes more wood away than cutting a tenon, then it will likely be weaker, of it takes less wood away it will likely be stronger? I'm willing to hear a bunch of argumenta]s why that isn't correct...

 

[JoeyInCali]

My thought is the shaft strength is going to be proportional to the surface area of the wooden portion of the shaft. If the drilled hole takes more wood away than cutting a tenon, then it will likely be weaker, of it takes less wood away it will likely be stronger? I'm willing to hear a bunch of argumenta]s why that isn't correct...

If you thread it, it will likely never come off.
But, laterally, it is not as strong .

 

[ideologist]

so shaft blanks are normally 30 inches........ if a customer wants a 31 inch shaft.......... I finish the shaft and drill in about a inch or an inch and a half with a 5/16 drill............. I turn a tenon out of a scrap maple shaft and epoxy in the new tenon and leave an inch out for the ferrule............ it certainly is stronger than the original shaft and I have done many of these and some players break with them and never a failure

Kim

Where is the barf emoji

You can't just come in giving bad advice about structure and playability. An epoxy-soaked tenon with a bunch of gaps to allow for expansion will certainly play worse than a solid piece of wood with a ferrule sleeve.

Otherwise why don't we all just go get those slip-on house cue tips and call it a day? Would be a heck of a lot faster

 

[Michael Webb]

It's always exciting here in the
SOMEBODY please hold my hand section.
Hahahahahahahahaha

 

[chefjeff]

I will accept that if care is taken the joint will be usually be strong enough to give trouble free service for many years.

There is no way on earth however that it's stronger than it was back when it had it's own wood as a tenon coming out of the center. I am not an engineer but I'm pretty certain of this based on what I know about wood and glue.

It's a moot point though because at the point the tenon is gone there are few options.

ferrule

fĕr′əl

noun​

1. A metal ring or cap placed around a pole or shaft for reinforcement or to prevent splitting.

If it isn't that, it isn't a ferrule, but something else. A cap or an extension or something, but not a ferrule.


Jeff Livingston

 

[DeeDeeCues]

ferrule

fĕr′əl

noun​

1. A metal ring or cap placed around a pole or shaft for reinforcement or to prevent splitting.

If it isn't that, it isn't a ferrule, but something else. A cap or an extension or something, but not a ferrule.


Jeff Livingston

Well, outside of snooker cues, basically none are metal. Maybe the definition needs to change to match the usage.

By-the-by, ferrules on paintbrushes are not mainly for crack prevention. So, what are they supposed to be called?

 

[chefjeff]

Well, outside of snooker cues, basically none are metal. Maybe the definition needs to change to match the usage.

By-the-by, ferrules on paintbrushes are not mainly for crack prevention. So, what are they supposed to be called?

Or shoelaces....they have a strange name for the plastic "ferrule."

It is designed to keep the shaft wood from splitting, that's for sure.



Jeff Livingston

 

[thoffen]

Possible it is stronger but new tenon is dryer than the shaft, grain is installed oriented perpendicular so it spreads opposite the shaft, add humidity and...

 

[whammo57]

Where is the barf emoji

You can't just come in giving bad advice about structure and playability. An epoxy-soaked tenon with a bunch of gaps to allow for expansion will certainly play worse than a solid piece of wood with a ferrule sleeve.

Otherwise why don't we all just go get those slip-on house cue tips and call it a day? Would be a heck of a lot faster

what kind of 3rg grade nonsense is that............. I do not install a "epoxy soaked tenon with a bunch of gaps......" you are bent on vomiting your bullshit that has no scientific evidence............... so STFU and go back to your video games in your mommy's basement

 

[JC]

The pie laminated shafts that are hollow down the center have to use some type of scheme similar to replacing a broken tenon with an inserted one.

This has to add forward mass to these shafts which makes me wonder about the entire concept.

Not sure if the pie lams make the hollow shaft stronger or weaker than a solid piece of maple but it's definitely worth some thought.

 

[JoeyInCali]

The pie laminated shafts that are hollow down the center have to use some type of scheme similar to replacing a broken tenon with an inserted one.

This has to add forward mass to these shafts which makes me wonder about the entire concept.

Not sure if the pie lams make the hollow shaft stronger or weaker than a solid piece of maple but it's definitely worth some thought.

They have very thin tenon and are infamous for breaking.
Since they are thin, you can't thread the tenon and ferrules. Hence, those ferrules are infamous for becoming loose or breaking.
Tiger had T shaped Saber-T ferrules on their laminated shafts. Too much squirt for me.
Too heavy and hits too hard.

 

[Michael Webb]

They have very thin tenon and are infamous for breaking.
Since they are thin, you can't thread the tenon and ferrules. Hence, those ferrules are infamous for becoming loose or breaking.
Tiger had T shaped Saber-T ferrules on their laminated shafts. Too much squirt for me.
Too heavy and hits too hard.

 

[Michael Webb]

But sometimes, you can get lucky!

 

[ideologist]

what kind of 3rg grade nonsense is that............. I do not install a "epoxy soaked tenon with a bunch of gaps......" you are bent on vomiting your bullshit that has no scientific evidence............... so STFU and go back to your video games in your mommy's basement

If you are installing a new piece of wood into a shaft, and using any sort of adhesive, you have to have some kind of gap to avoid blowing out the shaft wall. This gap typically circles the entire tenon since you turn down material and cut threads in a circle. Even it you are the finest machinist in history with a shop in outer space, and can assure us with certainly that you have a clearance of .00001" around the tenon, that's still a gap.

You'll call it some kind of marketing buzz word, I'll call it "not a solid piece of maple"

 

[Sheldon]

Predator 314-2. Definitely abused. But not uncommon. You want lower endmass, you sacrifice strength.
Still cracks me up when I see people obsessing about "voids" in a cue. When all the newer LD stuff is hollow right at the business end.

 

[Floyd_M]

I’m thinking about installing a new ferrule without a tenon. Instead of a tenon, I will cut a solid ferrule blank down to 5/16 inch for 3/4 inch, then epoxy this into a 5/16 inch x 3/4 inch hole in the shaft. I’m sure others have done this; just wondering what the results were and what I can expect my results to be. Thanks.

5 years ago I (sort of) asked the same question.
Of the few who posted back about 1/2 were childish remarks... much like what you're getting here.
'Pay no attention to the children behind the curtain.'
I went ahead and made my ferrule. Drilled the shaft a little deeper than yours (1.25"), threaded it in but only used epoxy on the last thread.
The first year I watched for a hard rack breaker and asked him to break a few racks. It held, then asked to break off-center, it held.
So in the past 5 years I break and masse with it even done a few vertical trick shots. Heck, I take the shaft off & use it as is as a jump stick.
Go ahead & make your idea. What could possibly go wrong? Split shaft? Sure, even normal & inserted wood tenons will split.
PM me some pix, I'm always interested in new ideas.

 

[JoeyInCali]

5 years ago I (sort of) asked the same question.
Of the few who posted back about 1/2 were childish remarks... much like what you're getting here.
'Pay no attention to the children behind the curtain.'
I went ahead and made my ferrule. Drilled the shaft a little deeper than yours (1.25"), threaded it in but only used epoxy on the last thread.
The first year I watched for a hard rack breaker and asked him to break a few racks. It held, then asked to break off-center, it held.
So in the past 5 years I break and masse with it even done a few vertical trick shots. Heck, I take the shaft off & use it as is as a jump stick.
Go ahead & make your idea. What could possibly go wrong? Split shaft? Sure, even normal & inserted wood tenons will split.
PM me some pix, I'm always interested in new ideas.

That's why it's better to make mockups and do your own testing than asking questions when you can EASILY do your own tests.

 

[Floyd_M]

That's why it's better to make mockups and do your own testing than asking questions when you can EASILY do your own tests.

Tom looked to save a little time and material.
I thought he came to the right place since a few here have actual experience.