Installing phenolic break one piece ferrule and tip???

patrickjuhlin

patrickjuhlin

A+ Banger
Silver Member
I just received some Phenolic canvas rod and have my first job installing a one piece ferrule and tip.
When installing is there any special way you need to cut the tenon or the base of the tenon where the ferrule meets the shaft wood to allow the epoxy to escape for a good fit?
Normally when installing a capped ferrule I have to drill a small hole in the top of the ferrule to allow the epoxy to escape. Do I have to do the same thing when installing a one piece ferrule and tip?

Thanks in advance.
Pat J
 
patrickjuhlin said:
I just received some Phenolic canvas rod and have my first job installing a one piece ferrule and tip.
When installing is there any special way you need to cut the tenon or the base of the tenon where the ferrule meets the shaft wood to allow the epoxy to escape for a good fit?
Normally when installing a capped ferrule I have to drill a small hole in the top of the ferrule to allow the epoxy to escape. Do I have to do the same thing when installing a one piece ferrule and tip?

Thanks in advance.
Pat J
Click to expand...

Pat, the best way to install a Phenolic Ferrule / Tip combination is not to install it on a wooden Tenon at all, this assembly will sometimes crack. When I install these I drill 1 3/8 into the shaft with a 5/16 drill bit. Then I turn down a section of rod to .306 thousands 1 3/8 long and I groove it along it's length. Next pull the rod forward and part it 1 1/8 past the grooved area. Then face the end of the shaft and the back of the 1 inch section if the phenolic, epoxy it in place and apply pressure, wait until dry turn down and your done.

This installation will not break, Crack, or anything else and the Tink sound that Phenolic Tip and other ferrules make is eliminated. It will also break and jump better than installing a Phenolic combination on a wooden tenon, because it transmits more power since it is solid.

Take Care
 
That is some good insight. I appreciate the passing off of some really good knowledge that would take me a lot of trial and error to figure out. The only other question is what do you use to make the grooves in the .306 end of the phenolic?
Thank you so much
 
patrickjuhlin said:
I just received some Phenolic canvas rod and have my first job installing a one piece ferrule and tip.
When installing is there any special way you need to cut the tenon or the base of the tenon where the ferrule meets the shaft wood to allow the epoxy to escape for a good fit?
Normally when installing a capped ferrule I have to drill a small hole in the top of the ferrule to allow the epoxy to escape. Do I have to do the same thing when installing a one piece ferrule and tip?

Thanks in advance.
Pat J
Click to expand...
I recommend a thick cap. 1/4 thick at least.
Use bottoming tap in you last pass to thread the hole ( if you don't have a live threader ).
Ream the bottom of the ferrule 5/16 by .187 or so for the tenon's shoulder/register. IT adds strength and lines-up the ferrule dead nuts .
 
patrickjuhlin said:
That is some good insight. I appreciate the passing off of some really good knowledge that would take me a lot of trial and error to figure out. The only other question is what do you use to make the grooves in the .306 end of the phenolic?
Thank you so much
Click to expand...

A parting tool will work very well to cut small grooves in the turned down section. I have been doing this for more than two years with no failure.

Glad I could help.
 
JoeyInCali said:
I recommend a thick cap. 1/4 thick at least.
Use bottoming tap in you last pass to thread the hole ( if you don't have a live threader ).
Ream the bottom of the ferrule 5/16 by .187 or so for the tenon's shoulder/register. IT adds strength and lines-up the ferrule dead nuts .
Click to expand...



I basically do the same thing as this with a threaded wood tenon, never had a single problem with them. I've drilled holes right through the center before using a miniature endmill, and that provided glue relief, But I've found that It wasn't really necessary. The main thing, is screw it on a few turns at a time letting the glue escape from the back in between. That way You don't over compress it too quickly, and build up too much Hydraulic pressure all at one time. make sure the glue doesn't set too fast, But it doesn't take so long that It's really a problem, unless Your using something that is super fast setting.
 
manwon said:
A parting tool will work very well to cut small grooves in the turned down section. I have been doing this for more than two years with no failure.

Glad I could help.
Click to expand...
i use my ringcutter , KJ's cutter
before that i used a dremel tool with cutter wheel/disc
 
I just make the ferrule the same as I would any capped ferrule. I bore out ferrule 3/4 depth leaving a 1/4 " cap or if a shorter ferrule I leave a 1/4" cap and drill a 1/32 glue relief hole just like any other capped ferrule. I install with epoxy. Later, just before I shape the ferrule, I take some leather tip shavings, mix with CA Gel and with a tooth pick I stuff some into the hole. Now after the ferrule nose is shaped like a tip there no longer is a hole and the tip has leather in it so as to conform the different organizations rules.

Dick
 
i do them the same as a reg ferrule. large cap as joey stated. .750 tennon. just over an inch of phen. you dont need a glue relief hole

i know a maker (one of the best in the world) that does all of his ferrules capped with NO glue relief hole
 
You know what pisses me off, Mike gullassy(sp?) aka sledgehammer break/jump cues sent me emails with his patent info, pretty much implying if I didn't stop using the one-piece he'd sue me, and the rest of the world keeps doing it, and even talking about it on forums, and nothing happens to anyone else. WTF.
 
I actually know Mike Gullassy's lawyer who helped him get the patent, he lives and works here in Salt Lake City and I see him at tournaments from time to time. I will ask him what stipulations the patent has on other cue makers using a phenolic one piece ferrule and tip.

This comes back to the generalities of patents.

Does Mike Gullassy's patent have the specific phenolic that is used in making aone piece ferrule and tip in the patent text? Example Phenolic Canvas vs. Phenolic Linen? Would I be in violation if I used G-10 material as a one piece ferrule combination? Can you actually patent an idea that covers the use no matter what material is used in the application?
 
patrickjuhlin said:
I actually know Mike Gullassy's lawyer who helped him get the patent, he lives and works here in Salt Lake City and I see him at tournaments from time to time. I will ask him what stipulations the patent has on other cue makers using a phenolic one piece ferrule and tip.

This comes back to the generalities of patents.

Does Mike Gullassy's patent have the specific phenolic that is used in making aone piece ferrule and tip in the patent text? Example Phenolic Canvas vs. Phenolic Linen? Would I be in violation if I used G-10 material as a one piece ferrule combination? Can you actually patent an idea that covers the use no matter what material is used in the application?
Click to expand...
he told me over the phone a few months ago,
it was any one piece tip/ferrule
 
i was talking to him about some "new" "unbreakable" phenolic.
id love to see him sue over a 25$ ferrule. the money and time spent would be crazy. not worth it IMO
 
patrickjuhlin said:
I actually know Mike Gullassy's lawyer who helped him get the patent, he lives and works here in Salt Lake City and I see him at tournaments from time to time. I will ask him what stipulations the patent has on other cue makers using a phenolic one piece ferrule and tip.

This comes back to the generalities of patents.

Does Mike Gullassy's patent have the specific phenolic that is used in making aone piece ferrule and tip in the patent text? Example Phenolic Canvas vs. Phenolic Linen? Would I be in violation if I used G-10 material as a one piece ferrule combination? Can you actually patent an idea that covers the use no matter what material is used in the application?
Click to expand...

Mike makes his Jump/Break Ferrules like other forum members here, with the Phenolic being bored to 5/16 threaded and screwed onto a wooden tenon with a 1/4 thick cap. By changing the configuration and not using the name he has designated for his product the problems some are having are alleviated.

When the Pocket chalkers came out it wasn't the specific design that was patented as much as the name was. In a short time others came out with different designs such as Chalk on a stick, Chalk on a rope, and nothing could be done about it.

This is why I changed the design and the method of installation by boring a hole into the shaft and by replacing the wooded tenon with a turned down section off the ferrule itself. This way there is enough difference in design and installation as not to Violate someone else's patten rights.

Take Care
 
i'm trying it with a larger tennon 3/8 with a 1/4" cap so I can cut down on wieght to keep it close to a med ferrulle and tip so far it works. Only have done a few most like it they say the have better ball control, I thinks its in there head but I might have cut down alittle on deflection would be my guess.

Most tournaments are banning nonleather tips any ways somewhat of a wasted pattent maybe in several years it might pay off for him again to ave the patent.

Craig
 
dave sutton said:
i do them the same as a reg ferrule. large cap as joey stated. .750 tennon. just over an inch of phen. you dont need a glue relief hole

i know a maker (one of the best in the world) that does all of his ferrules capped with NO glue relief hole
Click to expand...

Correct...no glue relief hole needed. I've only done a 1000 plus or so...I know a little something.
I don't like making the tenon out of the phenolic and putting it into a hole in the shaft. I know others have stated thats how they do it & thats fine...whatever works for you...but lets think about that for a moment. The female part with the bored hole that the tenon goes into is the thinnest section...and thus makes it the weakest section too. So...if I have to have a thin bored out section, would I rather have that area made from wood which will crack very easily or would it be better to have that area made of the ultra strong phenolic? No brainer for me. I'd rather have the tenon made of wood and fitted into the phenolic. This is the strongest set up possible. Thats why I'm comfortable enough to give a lifetime warranty on my j/b tips & ferrules. Also I remember a while back that Mr. Reyes did some extensive testing that showed when a ferrule tenon was inserted into a shaft hole that it acted like a lever and actually induced cracking of the shaft. Not trying to start any arguments...there are a 1000 ways to butter an elephant...just sharing my thoughts as to why I do mine as I do. Everyone have a great weekend!:)
 
Varney Cues said:
Correct...no glue relief hole needed. I've only done a 1000 plus or so...I know a little something.
I don't like making the tenon out of the phenolic and putting it into a hole in the shaft. I know others have stated thats how they do it & thats fine...whatever works for you...but lets think about that for a moment. The female part with the bored hole that the tenon goes into is the thinnest section...and thus makes it the weakest section too. So...if I have to have a thin bored out section, would I rather have that area made from wood which will crack very easily or would it be better to have that area made of the ultra strong phenolic? No brainer for me. I'd rather have the tenon made of wood and fitted into the phenolic. This is the strongest set up possible. Thats why I'm comfortable enough to give a lifetime warranty on my j/b tips & ferrules. Also I remember a while back that Mr. Reyes did some extensive testing that showed when a ferrule tenon was inserted into a shaft hole that it acted like a lever and actually induced cracking of the shaft. Not trying to start any arguments...there are a 1000 ways to butter an elephant...just sharing my thoughts as to why I do mine as I do. Everyone have a great weekend!:)
Click to expand...

i do my 314 like this. when i convert to to ivory i take 1.25'' ferrule. turn the tenon from ivory to .405 or whatever and put it into the shaft. no splits yet

breaking however uses alot of force. the lever thing makes sense.
 
manwon said:
Mike makes his Jump/Break Ferrules like other forum members here, with the Phenolic being bored to 5/16 threaded and screwed onto a wooden tenon with a 1/4 thick cap. By changing the configuration and not using the name he has designated for his product the problems some are having are alleviated.

When the Pocket chalkers came out it wasn't the specific design that was patented as much as the name was. In a short time others came out with different designs such as Chalk on a stick, Chalk on a rope, and nothing could be done about it.

This is why I changed the design and the method of installation by boring a hole into the shaft and by replacing the wooded tenon with a turned down section off the ferrule itself. This way there is enough difference in design and installation as not to Violate someone else's patten rights.

Take Care
Click to expand...

how about something like putting a small ring (like a pad) underneath the ferrule like between the shaft and the ferrule.

not 1 piece :grin::grin::grin:

then it would be up to him to but a cue , cut it up and see how its made. good luck with that
 
dave sutton said:
i do my 314 like this. when i convert to to ivory i take 1.25'' ferrule. turn the tenon from ivory to .405 or whatever and put it into the shaft. no splits yet

breaking however uses alot of force. the lever thing makes sense.
Click to expand...

I use a wood tenon on all my 314's too. I put 1" into the hole and use the rest for ferrule installation. Never had one crack either. I really just don't like the idea of making the tenon from the ferrule material...besides like I mentioned, I like my tenon set 1" deep minimum. I'm with you though Dave...those who haven't tried a 314 with a real ferrule...have no idea the treat they are missing. Makes for one incredible hit & a very lively shaft. I have many players who hate 314's. When they hit with my shaft they are shocked to find out its a 314 with Juma & Sniper. Gone is the funny hollowish Pred hit. :)
 
manwon said:
Mike makes his Jump/Break Ferrules like other forum members here, with the Phenolic being bored to 5/16 threaded and screwed onto a wooden tenon with a 1/4 thick cap. By changing the configuration and not using the name he has designated for his product the problems some are having are alleviated.

When the Pocket chalkers came out it wasn't the specific design that was patented as much as the name was. In a short time others came out with different designs such as Chalk on a stick, Chalk on a rope, and nothing could be done about it.

This is why I changed the design and the method of installation by boring a hole into the shaft and by replacing the wooded tenon with a turned down section off the ferrule itself. This way there is enough difference in design and installation as not to Violate someone else's patten rights.

Take Care
Click to expand...
I think if it's a ONE-PIECE ferrule/tip, it still infringes on his patent.
http://www.poolndarts.com/p-7597-Phenolic-Ferrule-Tip-Combo/
So Mueller's sells em separately.

The METHOD of installation has no bearing on the design itself.
You could bore it and theard it 3/18 16 as well but it'd still be a one-piece tip/ferrule.
 
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