interesting stroke discovery

[wigglybridge]

i've been trying this past week to improve my accuracy on what Matt Tetrault calls "straight-ins": long, straight shots from corner to corner diagonally down the table. despite my recent gains from Matt's help, if i hit those shots hard, my percentage on them is Really dismal. i have the same problem with break shots, but straight-ins eliminate any aiming confusion.

Tues night i practiced them for about 20 minutes, and i was making only 3-4 out of 10 tries over that period. i did a bunch of thinking later about why that might be, and made a list of things that might cause my stroke to go so far off, and ideas to fix it.

Wednesday night i shot them for about an hour, trying all of the things i'd listed. nothing changed. but it dawned on me that i was consistently missing them to the left of the pocket, and often by a good 2". that's at least information. and then i decided to try one more thing i'd seen somewhere in a book, or maybe online here: that one difference between some pro strokes and amateurs was in the position of the 'vee' in the right-hand grip on the finish of the stroke. and i thought about the follow thru that many players have on a 9-ball break, Johnny Archer for example, where you see his forefinger practically rolled over on top of the cue and pointing at the head of the stack on his follow through. so i decided to consciously try to pronate my hand counterclockwise and see what happened.

well, what happened was simply unbelievable: i made 20 of those shots. in a row. then i decided maybe i should ease up a little on the pronation to see what would happen. i missed one. then went back to pronating and made another 10 in a row.

i spent about another 20 minutes hitting these shots in each diagonal to assure myself that it wasn't a fluke, and it wasn't. what is a 40% shot at best for me goes immediately to well over 95% if i pronate my wrist counterclockwise as i come forward. this is Not an accident.

now, this of course raises All Kindsa questions. is this pronation actually correcting the reverse habit that i may have had unconsciously? if so, fine, and i should work toward making That the natural way to stroke. but doesn't it seem more likely that it's compensating for something Else that's wrong and should be fixed?

so i wonder if this triggers any ideas about what causes this: my natural "hard" stroke must hit the cue ball slightly to the left of center, thus deflecting it slightly right, so the object ball goes left of the pocket. but as far as i can tell, it only happens when i'm hitting the ball hard; if i slow roll it, no problem. long stop shots and break shots are most obvious, but i wouldn't be surprised if it's also causing some of my other other minor accuracy and repeatability problems on draw shots, for example.

one thing that occurs to me is that all of this was with a closed bridge, and maybe my bridge tilts the cue when i hit hard. i plan to try the same thing with an open bridge to rule that out. or maybe the act of pronating keeps me from clutching the cue and throwing it off line? i'm also tempted to try a pendulum stroke, but that's a pretty drastic change, and even the pros that use a pendulum stroke grade over to piston when they hit it really hard.

any thoughts?

 

[sfleinen]

wigglybridge:

What you are describing is a "workaround" for something wrong in your grip. You are pronating (rotating outwards) your wrist to compensate for the fact that your cue delivery -- especially with power -- is not straight. What's compelling to me, is that you describe the error -- always to one side -- worsens with greater power applied to the shot.

Although some pros have gotten around the error by flexing their wrist during the actual cue delivery, most stroke instructors wouldn't recommend it. It's one extra movement that, although you're experiencing somewhat of a renaissance from due to "new movement = better results" (sort of a "new-cue-itis"), it can break down later, with disastrous consequences. Most often, when you're in a match, under duress, and now you have this extra movement in your stroke you now have to troubleshoot.

Without reinventing the wheel, you might find the following information I posted in another thread on the Main forum useful:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=3303018#post3303018​

mantis99:

You didn't yet post a video link (that I can see, anyway). But, in the meantime, you received a lot of great information here. Eye dominance is a biggie when it comes to subconscious steering of the cue. I think enough ground was covered with the posts you've received thus far on this topic (especially from Mike -- Mikjary) that I wouldn't even attempt to add to something that is probably as complete as it can be.

However, another thing to focus on is something you hinted on (bolded above), and not many players have the foresight, analytic skills, or intelligence to understand the physics behind it.

The human hand and wrist is of asymmetric construction, and possibly the worst design (mechanical engineering-wise) that can be used to hold and drive a cylindrical instrument forward. First, the hand -- as you've surmised -- has four fingers on one side of the cue, and one (the thumb) on the other side. Ignoring the fact that each finger is stronger or weaker than the others, if we compare the fingers to the thumb, and if a finger equals a "1" in terms of strength, then the thumb equals a "2" in terms of strength. (This is greatly simplified, of course -- the pinkie is much weaker than the index or middle fingers.) So we have a power of "4" on one side of the cue, and a power of "2" on the other. Or, instead of "power" we can also say "mass." In either case, you have double of something on one side of the cue -- the fingers side. Plus, take into consideration that the flexion side of the fingers (the natural direction the fingers take when closing into a fist) is facing inwards towards the cue's surface (towards your body), but the flexion side of the thumb faces backwards towards the butt of the cue. So we have the instance where the forces of the hand are unbalanced and facing in multiple directions, not in a single direction as would be the case with a human-engineered cradle or "clamp."

Let's also take into consideration the wrist -- it's designed to flex most optimally towards and away from your palm (towards and away from your body, if you were in your shooting stance holding the cue). The wrist's natural and optimum method of flexion is not in the direction that you're swinging the cue, which is the same motion as if you were waving your hand "hello."

With these simplistic analyses of the unbalanced construction of the human hand and wrist, it is no wonder that we have a problem with consistent swinging of the cue accurately.

So, one has to adapt a method of grip that attempts to balance these unbalanced forces. One way is to lessen the number of fingers contacting the cue. Many instructors advocate (and many world-class players use) a two-fingered grip -- two fingers + the thumb. (Two good examples are Dennis Orcullo and Ronnie Alcano.) The forces on either side of the cue are more or less balanced -- two fingers just about equals the strength and mass of the thumb. Plus, the tendency to "grab" the cue at any point in the stroke is lessened. (When the human hand is in its natural "fist" state, it's natural for the fingers to clamp closed -- the force of "4" on one side of the cue overpowers the thumb, driving the butt of the cue inwards towards your body.)

Another method, used in snooker, is to use a rear-fingered grip. That is, if you look at the design of your hand, you'll see that you have the "pincers" (the index finger + the thumb), and the "cradle" (the middle, ring, and pinkie). By resting the cue in the "cradle" (those three fingers curled under the cue, supporting it from underneath) and leaving the "pincer" fingers (index + thumb) pointing downwards, you remove the unbalanced forces on the side if the cue. Plus, when you deliver the cue forward with a nice relaxed cradle, you'll see the forward fingers (index, thumb, and possibly even the middle finger) open-up and outwards away from the cue, sort of like a sabot on a bullet. (This, by the way, is the same motion that happens when you throw a dart, but in reverse -- when you hold a dart in front of your face, ready to throw it at the dartboard in front of you, your thumb and index [and possibly middle] fingers are contacting the sides of the dart, and the rear fingers of your hand -- the ring and pinkie -- open up and outwards away from the dart as you throw it. Same idea -- a sabot.)

You might want to experiment with your grip in this manner, to find a grip that allows you to deliver the cue straight through, all the way to the Finish position (using SPF terminology) with no steering, unbalanced mass/forces, or obstacles (e.g. pads on your fingers or palm) getting in the way and thus pushing the cue to one side.

I hope this is helpful!
-Sean

And I hope this is helpful to you as well!
-Sean

 

[wigglybridge]

wow. Sean, that is immensely helpful info!

and encouraging. what i didn't say was that i didn't enjoy having to do this odd-feeling movement, and was really hoping another fix was possible. what you say makes complete sense.

i went back and read the referenced thread, and it sounds like i have the reverse issue from the original poster, in that it seems like my thumb is overcoming my fingers, which would seem unusual? so maybe i'm a weirdo who needs More finger pressure? it does seem that the motion i was using would help my fingers push the butt opposite the thumb. or maybe as you imply in the first paragraph, there is something else flawed in my grip that sets me up for this, and it's not a thumb-finger competition per se. i am conscious of a tendency for me to clamp the cue at impact.

i sure Hope it's something like grip basics rather than having to do an unnatural hand motion! i have to work this weekend, but should be able to get to a table on Sunday night for a little bit and try out some ideas around that.

but to everyone else: operators are still standing by waiting for Your call...

 

[One Pocket John]

You shouldn't grasp the cue at impact. It should be more of a gentle squeeze. The reason for the gentle squeeze is so you can feel the pressure (weight of the cue ball) in your hand when you hit the cue ball.

I call it feeling the cue ball (weight of the cue ball). You have to be able to do this so that you will have accurate cue ball control.

What I do everyday is line up all 15 balls across the table at diamond #5 and shot them all in the corner pockets from diamond #2 using center ball or a little below center to develop feel of the cue ball. I might do this 2,3,4 or 5 times until I start to feel the cue ball. This routine will also correct any of the basics.....line of the shot, stance and stroke.

Note: I do not allow my index finger to get involved with my grip. I hold the cue with the last three fingers just tight enough to feel that I have a cue in my hand. The thumb is placed gently next to the cue.

John

 

[lfigueroa]

wigglybridge:

What you are describing is a "workaround" for something wrong in your grip. You are pronating (rotating outwards) your wrist to compensate for the fact that your cue delivery -- especially with power -- is not straight. What's compelling to me, is that you describe the error -- always to one side -- worsens with greater power applied to the shot.

Although some pros have gotten around the error by flexing their wrist during the actual cue delivery, most stroke instructors wouldn't recommend it. It's one extra movement that, although you're experiencing somewhat of a renaissance from due to "new movement = better results" (sort of a "new-cue-itis"), it can break down later, with disastrous consequences. Most often, when you're in a match, under duress, and now you have this extra movement in your stroke you now have to troubleshoot.

Without reinventing the wheel, you might find the following information I posted in another thread on the Main forum useful:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=3303018#post3303018​

And I hope this is helpful to you as well!
-Sean

I always thought "pronating" your grip wrist was rotating it inwards. IOW, for a right-handed player, the pronating would rotate the thumb down.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

i've been trying this past week to improve my accuracy on what Matt Tetrault calls "straight-ins": long, straight shots from corner to corner diagonally down the table. despite my recent gains from Matt's help, if i hit those shots hard, my percentage on them is Really dismal. i have the same problem with break shots, but straight-ins eliminate any aiming confusion.

Tues night i practiced them for about 20 minutes, and i was making only 3-4 out of 10 tries over that period. i did a bunch of thinking later about why that might be, and made a list of things that might cause my stroke to go so far off, and ideas to fix it.

Wednesday night i shot them for about an hour, trying all of the things i'd listed. nothing changed. but it dawned on me that i was consistently missing them to the left of the pocket, and often by a good 2". that's at least information. and then i decided to try one more thing i'd seen somewhere in a book, or maybe online here: that one difference between some pro strokes and amateurs was in the position of the 'vee' in the right-hand grip on the finish of the stroke. and i thought about the follow thru that many players have on a 9-ball break, Johnny Archer for example, where you see his forefinger practically rolled over on top of the cue and pointing at the head of the stack on his follow through. so i decided to consciously try to pronate my hand counterclockwise and see what happened.

well, what happened was simply unbelievable: i made 20 of those shots. in a row. then i decided maybe i should ease up a little on the pronation to see what would happen. i missed one. then went back to pronating and made another 10 in a row.

i spent about another 20 minutes hitting these shots in each diagonal to assure myself that it wasn't a fluke, and it wasn't. what is a 40% shot at best for me goes immediately to well over 95% if i pronate my wrist counterclockwise as i come forward. this is Not an accident.

now, this of course raises All Kindsa questions. is this pronation actually correcting the reverse habit that i may have had unconsciously? if so, fine, and i should work toward making That the natural way to stroke. but doesn't it seem more likely that it's compensating for something Else that's wrong and should be fixed?

so i wonder if this triggers any ideas about what causes this: my natural "hard" stroke must hit the cue ball slightly to the left of center, thus deflecting it slightly right, so the object ball goes left of the pocket. but as far as i can tell, it only happens when i'm hitting the ball hard; if i slow roll it, no problem. long stop shots and break shots are most obvious, but i wouldn't be surprised if it's also causing some of my other other minor accuracy and repeatability problems on draw shots, for example.

one thing that occurs to me is that all of this was with a closed bridge, and maybe my bridge tilts the cue when i hit hard. i plan to try the same thing with an open bridge to rule that out. or maybe the act of pronating keeps me from clutching the cue and throwing it off line? i'm also tempted to try a pendulum stroke, but that's a pretty drastic change, and even the pros that use a pendulum stroke grade over to piston when they hit it really hard.

any thoughts?

IMO, there are all kinds of ways to make straight in shots. The wrist pronating, for you, is one way and seems to be giving you good results.

However, here's the thing: the game of pool requires far more than just being able to stab a straight in. So what you have to do is examine the results you're getting in greater depth.

Does this setup allow you to shot them slow as well as hard?
Does it work with both a closed bridge and an open one?
What about the cut shots, to the right and to the left?
Draw shots and follow?
Dead center?
What happens when you try and apply english?
Shooting with elevation off a rail?

And then the really tough questions:
What is the cue ball doing?
Is it tracking perfectly straight on follow and draw shots?
How's your speed control?

I've written before that there are all kinds of strokes that will allow you to play at various levels and degrees of success. You've found one of your strokes. The question now is: is it your bestest stroke?

Lou Figueroa

 

[stevekur1]

Hey Bob,

I am not too sure about this Pronating thing without seeing it, as a matter of fact i just looked up the definition...lol

you might wanna put this topic in the "Ask The Instructor" section to see what other opinions you may recieve....some but not all of us frequent certain areas of AZ.

any chance you can post up pictures of what you are describing ?

-Steve

 

[sfleinen]

I always thought "pronating" your grip wrist was rotating it inwards. IOW, for a right-handed player, the pronating would rotate the thumb down.

Lou Figueroa

Lou:

Actually, that was what I was describing -- but from the viewpoint of the hand. Pronating, to me, means flexing the wrist such that the hand moves outwards where the palm faces the floor.

I know, semantics, semantics.

But I think this is a job for the Ask the Instructor forums, with pictures, if possible. I know a stroke instructor would diagnose this right away, and offer definitive fixes.

-Sean

 

[driven]

I'm a big fan of the long straight in shot also, been shooting this one for over 25 years. It is a good shot because: you dont really need to aim, everyone knows where to hit it. It is pure stroke.

I hit it with a very firm centerball hit. A stop shot. Any off center hit on the cue ball will send ob in the opposite direction, giving immediate feedback, if it rolls foward of comes back a little you also missed the center. my record is 67 or 8 with maybe only 4 or 5 hit perfect. I mean not even half a twist on the cue ball after contact. I believe the off center hit is the number 1 reason this shot gets missed, at least for me anyway.

I never experimented with different grips, but however you decide it must become to feel natural. I know if I am thinking about mechanics while shooting I am thinking about the wrong thing
steven

 

[sfleinen]

Rear-fingered grip

You shouldn't grasp the cue at impact. It should be more of a gentle squeeze. The reason for the gentle squeeze is so you can feel the pressure (weight of the cue ball) in your hand when you hit the cue ball.

I call it feeling the cue ball (weight of the cue ball). You have to be able to do this so that you will have accurate cue ball control.

What I do everyday is line up all 15 balls across the table at diamond #5 and shot them all in the corner pockets from diamond #2 using center ball or a little below center to develop feel of the cue ball. I might do this 2,3,4 or 5 times until I start to feel the cue ball. This routine will also correct any of the basics.....line of the shot, stance and stroke.

Note: I do not allow my index finger to get involved with my grip. I hold the cue with the last three fingers just tight enough to feel that I have a cue in my hand. The thumb is placed gently next to the cue.

John

John:

Thanks for describing this! What you are describing is called the "rear-fingered grip," where you use the cradle of your hand (the rear three fingers: middle, ring, pinkie), and the "pincer" fingers (index finger and thumb) are relaxed and unused (point to the floor, or else just rest against the side of the cue with no pressure whatsoever).

Snooker players use this grip for the precise reasons you mention. A good example (so that the readership can see what we're talking about) is Ronnie O'Sullivan:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=W2Ye61WiLMk#t=8m03s

(Note: as soon as you click on this link, you'll be taken to 8:03 in the video, which is the first scene where you get a good view of Ronnie's rear-fingered grip -- watch his right/grip hand.)

-Sean

 

[One Pocket John]

John:

Thanks for describing this! What you are describing is called the "rear-fingered grip," where you use the cradle of your hand (the rear three fingers: middle, ring, pinkie), and the "pincer" fingers (index finger and thumb) are relaxed and unused (point to the floor, or else just rest against the side of the cue with no pressure whatsoever).Snooker players use this grip for the precise reasons you mention. A good example (so that the readership can see what we're talking about) is Ronnie O'Sullivan:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=W2Ye61WiLMk#t=8m03s

(Note: as soon as you click on this link, you'll be taken to 8:03 in the video, which is the first scene where you get a good view of Ronnie's rear-fingered grip -- watch his right/grip hand.)

-Sean

True. my stance (feet) are more square to the table (not at 45 deg) so that my body weight is forward toward the shot. More of a snooker stance. Somewhere between 45deg and 90deg.

Took a little getting use to it though because most American instructors teach that your feet should be at a 45 deg angle.

My chin is always in line with the shot, my dominant eye tells my chin where it needs to be and also where my grip hand needs to be in order for me to hit the OB where I am looking.

This is what I practice when shooting in long straight in shots, as few as 15 and as many as 60. All depends.

John

 

[sfleinen]

True. my stance (feet) are more square to the table (not at 45 deg) so that my body weight is forward toward the shot. More of a snooker stance. Somewhere between 45deg and 90deg.

Took a little getting use to it though because most American instructors teach that your feet should be at a 45 deg angle.

My chin is always in line with the shot, my dominant eye tells my chin where it needs to be and also where my grip hand needs to be in order for me to hit the OB where I am looking.

This is what I practice when shooting in long straight in shots, as few as 15 and as many as 60. All depends.

John

Hi John:

As you probably know from my posting history, I'm a big advocate of snooker fundamentals. I've been using snooker fundamentals for about a decade, all told. Chin on the cue, centered between the eyes (I've binocular vision -- no real dominant eye), and the only departure from strict snooker fundamentals is that I use a closed bridge (Filipino index-pressing-upon-the-middle finger style).

Prior to that, like most pool players, I was a student of the Lance Perkins method, taught by most pool instructors (e.g. 45 degree stance, etc.) -- the same as you describe.

I used to practice on a 12-foot snooker table, doing the "straight on" drill you mention using the center-spotted blue, diagonally from corner to corner (if you bridge near the mouth of the corner pocket, that's more than a 12-foot shot!). My record at these, on a 12-footer, is 48. To be honest, I've never kept count of how many of these I can do on a standard 9-foot table -- I'd always focused on other drills. But it's still a very valid drill and test of cueing skill -- especially if you LAG the shot. (Hitting it hard is easier, because any hitches in your stroke kinda get "greased over" with the speed. Lagging the shot "unhides" all the anomalies in your stroke.) I'll have to try and see how many of these I can make on a pool table.

Good thread, and good info.
-Sean

 

[mosconiac]

But it's still a very valid drill and test of cueing skill -- especially if you LAG the shot. (Hitting it hard is easier, because any hitches in your stroke kinda get "greased over" with the speed. Lagging the shot "unhides" all the anomalies in your stroke.)

So TRUE! I've noted that lagging the balls is more difficult for me...my stroke faults become obvious.

 

[wigglybridge]

exactly the reverse for me; i can lag these corner-to-corner much easier. i've got a houseful of people right now, so no time to type, but thanks everyone for the great observations and contributions!

 

[sfleinen]

wow. Sean, that is immensely helpful info!

and encouraging. what i didn't say was that i didn't enjoy having to do this odd-feeling movement, and was really hoping another fix was possible. what you say makes complete sense.

i went back and read the referenced thread, and it sounds like i have the reverse issue from the original poster, in that it seems like my thumb is overcoming my fingers, which would seem unusual? so maybe i'm a weirdo who needs More finger pressure? it does seem that the motion i was using would help my fingers push the butt opposite the thumb. or maybe as you imply in the first paragraph, there is something else flawed in my grip that sets me up for this, and it's not a thumb-finger competition per se. i am conscious of a tendency for me to clamp the cue at impact.

i sure Hope it's something like grip basics rather than having to do an unnatural hand motion! i have to work this weekend, but should be able to get to a table on Sunday night for a little bit and try out some ideas around that.

but to everyone else: operators are still standing by waiting for Your call...

Hi Bob!

Apologies I'd been quiescent and not replied to the above. Just been busy with Q3 closeouts for my job, and lately I only have time for "hit and run" posts to AZB -- on a 5 minute break, read, post, and then minimize the browser to get back to what I was doing.

I agree that the odd-feeling movement is not something you want to be part of your stroke. The swing should be relaxed and natural -- you shouldn't have to devote any brain cells to the "timing" of the outwards wrist turn (outwards = having the hand arch upwards away from your body). Jose Parica is another player that uses that odd pronation, albeit his pronation is slight (you have to watch carefully):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_r-2dhxkpGQ

(Any of the "... stroke analysis" videos by mosconiac are GREAT, btw. There are some for Corey Deuel, Ralf Souquet, Efren Reyes, etc.)

Concerning possible things that might be going on in your grip:

1. Like you mentioned, it *could* be a mass/strength competition between your thumb, and the fingers on the other side of the cue. In this case, you'll need to add a finger (or two) on the outside of the cue to balance the equation.

2. Some part of your hand is "bumping" the cue sideways during the delivery. This is more common than most people think, and if you put a laser pointer on your cue (e.g. the LaserStroke product), it becomes plain as day. (In fact, I owe some of my own stroke troubleshooting to this great product -- back a couple years ago, it helped reveal a problem in my grip where the heel of my hand [that part of my hand that makes contact during a karate chop] was bumping the cue right at the point of tip contact with the cue ball, and throwing the delivery offline. That diagnosis itself was worth the price of the product alone.)

3. Clamping the cue at impact -- this is NEVER good. I'm not sure if I mentioned earlier, but the human hand is designed in a way where the flexion side of the fingers -- the inside part of the fingers where they close -- is facing the cue, but the flexion side of the thumb points rearwards towards the butt of the cue. When you clamp, the thumb pushes backwards (it slides backwards a bit on the surface of the cue), but the fingers "push" the handle of the cue inwards towards your body; which, if it happens at contact with the cue ball, swings the cue tip outwards to the right, pushing the *cue ball* to the right (or even applying slight right english to the cue ball), cutting the object ball to the left. This is a classic grip problem, and the description I gave you here, is taught in snooker.

In the case of #3, you may want to think of your hand as two parts -- the pincers (thumb and index finger), and the cradle (middle, ring, pinkie). Clamp the cue with the pincers, but let the cradle gently touch the cue -- sliding off and on as you swing the cue through the full range of your pendulum. When learning this new grip, concentrate on the feeling you get with the pincers, and just forget about the cradle -- make believe those fingers don't even exist. In fact, at first, you may even want to splay the fingers of the cradle outwards away from the cue as you practice. Later, as the feeling of this "pincer" grip becomes more familiar, you can start to relax the cradle fingers and bring them back into contact with the cue, taking care to never let them have any active part in "pushing" the cue. A good role model to use for this pincer grip is Alex Pagulayan -- if you watch him, you'll see his cradle fingers splay off the cue on the back stroke, and come back together onto the cue on the forward stroke. Watch carefully -- you'll see it!

Anyway, I hope this is helpful additional information! Let us know how you proceed!
-Sean

 

[West Point 1987]

[/QUOTE] A good role model to use for this pincer grip is Alex Pagulayan -- if you watch him, you'll see his cradle fingers splay off the cue on the back stroke, and come back together onto the cue on the forward stroke. Watch carefully -- you'll see it!

Anyway, I hope this is helpful additional information! Let us know how you proceed!
-Sean[/QUOTE]

Another good example (and easier to see in videos) is Ronnie Alcano...he uses just his thumb, index and middle finger, splaying out the ring and pinkie fingers. Absolutely NO wiggle at all in that stroke! I always used to twist my stroke and noticed the same problem you described. Lately I started keeping constant grip pressure (light, but CONSTANT) using the 2 + 1 + 1 rule (thumb is 2, index and middle fingers are each 1)...I credit Sean with that mathematical description, it's the best description I've ever heard for this and makes total sense...if I elevate, I use the thumb, middle and ring fingers. The remaining fingers barely touch the cue, if at all. 2 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1/2 = an uneven pressure on each side of your grip, which pulls the cue in on your stroke. Also, too light a pressure can cause someone to increase the pressure before and during contact ("snatching") causing the grip to either twist inward and the tip of the cue to move laterally. I was getting away with this for years, but lately was missing a lot of stroke shots at distance...I adjusted my grip and immediately doubled my success rate on those shots. My touch on short shots for cue ball control got a little better, too. The "V grip" works very well, too (I've tried it), but I actually prefer this better--closer to what I was doing all along, but firming up the grip slightly in key fingers and keeping that pressure constant took virtually all the wiggle out of my stroke and solved all the problems I was having (for this week, anyway!).

 

[hunger strike]

"The Anatomical Position"

Remember Leonardo Da Vinci's illustrations of human anatomy? The anatomical man stands with his arms at his sides with thumbs pointed outward. This is the "Anatomical Position" of the human body which is used to describe many things, including the relative movement of the limbs. Rotating the right hand counterclockwise is pronation as described correctly by the o.p. I know, it's confusing. The great instructors on here are right, these added movements add another variable to an already difficult equation and should be avoided. However, I have to say that I am not a really tall guy, and I can hit some long, reaching shots with more power by pronating. This stiffens my wrist and hits the ball with more "weight" rather than with a velocity that I can't add to equation P=MV when I have to reach.

 

[wigglybridge]

thanks, Sean and others for following up on this -- it's actually Me that 's remiss in saying more here, Sean, but my excuse is that i followed y'all's advice and posted about it on the "Ask the Instructor" forum, and it's started a long-running thread of diagnosis and hints:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=253830

lots of good ideas. and the latest from me on this is that it seems i may have been pronating my grip at set point, and if i do, i then do so even More when i stroke forward. it seems i can realize the benefits of the goofy pronation i'd been doing during the stroke if i just start out that way Before i stroke..

but i'm especially glad that you further explained the grip you were talking about, Sean, because i had it exactly backwards! i was thinking you meant that the thumb/index hang down completely inactive, and now i see that's not the case. at any rate, lots of grip experimentation in my future.

i like the idea of studying snooker players -- who have to be inhumanly accurate -- and Alex, who in addition to being superbly accurate himself, is a good physical model for me, being only 5'4".

i also ordered Joe Tucker's Third Eye trainer on Friday night, which in addition to it's normal features should help me keep track of what i'm doing to my stroke with these experiments!

 

[sfleinen]

thanks, Sean and others for following up on this -- it's actually Me that 's remiss in saying more here, Sean, but my excuse is that i followed y'all's advice and posted about it on the "Ask the Instructor" forum, and it's started a long-running thread of diagnosis and hints:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=253830

lots of good ideas. and the latest from me on this is that it seems i may have been pronating my grip at set point, and if i do, i then do so even More when i stroke forward. it seems i can realize the benefits of the goofy pronation i'd been doing during the stroke if i just start out that way Before i stroke..

but i'm especially glad that you further explained the grip you were talking about, Sean, because i had it exactly backwards! i was thinking you meant that the thumb/index hang down completely inactive, and now i see that's not the case. at any rate, lots of grip experimentation in my future.

i like the idea of studying snooker players -- who have to be inhumanly accurate -- and Alex, who in addition to being superbly accurate himself, is a good physical model for me, being only 5'4".

i also ordered Joe Tucker's Third Eye trainer on Friday night, which in addition to it's normal features should help me keep track of what i'm doing to my stroke with these experiments!

Hi Bob:

Thank you for the reply. Actually, you did have it correct with my description of the rear-fingered grip (i.e. "pincer" fingers -- index and thumb -- just hang down, and you use just the cradle of your hand). In my follow-up post above, I was just suggesting trying the opposite, in the spirit of offering you as many options as I can. We all have different sizes and shapes of hand, and with the variances in cue butt diameters, we have an almost infinite variety of conditions where different parts of our hand make contact with the cue. So what works for one person, is almost guaranteed to NOT work for the other person, for precisely the reason of the variances of our hands.

Again, options, options. I hope they're helpful!

-Sean

 

[Ratta]

Hi Bob:

Thank you for the reply. Actually, you did have it correct with my description of the rear-fingered grip (i.e. "pincer" fingers -- index and thumb -- just hang down, and you use just the cradle of your hand). In my follow-up post above, I was just suggesting trying the opposite, in the spirit of offering you as many options as I can. We all have different sizes and shapes of hand, and with the variances in cue butt diameters, we have an almost infinite variety of conditions where different parts of our hand make contact with the cue. So what works for one person, is almost guaranteed to NOT work for the other person, for precisely the reason of the variances of our hands.

Again, options, options. I hope they're helpful!

-Sean

Great posting Sean!