IPT Players Uniting!?

[av84fun]

Timberly...<<I can't convey the tone of his voice over the computer to get it to come across the way it was said.>>

Gotcha...No worries.

<<and then he went on with a barrage of reasons and examples to counter the post you made.>>

Fair enough...but IN MY HUMBLE OPINION....there aren't enough VALID reasons to constitute a barrage.

KT's and/or the IPT's financial underpinnings are a TOTAL unknown and that information would be about 95% of the reason to pursue him.

And as the lawyers will advise, finding out what he may be worth personally in the discovery process will be VERY...VERY difficult. I GUARANTEE you that his lawyers would object to providing ANY of his personal finances because they will assert as a "affirmative defense" that he, as a corporate officer...is NOT a proper defendant.

Who knows how a judge might eventually rule on that matter but in the meantime...he ain't gonna disclose BEANS about his person finances.

In the meantime, it is self-evident that the IPT...as an entity...is insolvent so there is any emply pocket there...EXCEPT for the possiblility that the player plaintiffs might eventually AFTER A FEW YEARS.... be awared ownership of the video footage that clearly has some meaningful value.

I am NOT suggesting that they players should not unite...IN FACT I THINK THEY SHOULD. I am just trying to issue cautions from my own personal and quite substantial experience along these EXACT lines.

I have SEEN THIS MOVIE and am just trying to share my experiences.

Regards,
Jim

 

[Roy Steffensen]

Linda:

All the poolroms that have hosted qualifiers had to get all the players who entered to fill in contactinfo, and fax it to the IPT. So I will find the information about Ben Davies when I come to my office.

it shouldn't be to hard to get the contact-info to the players, since I guess that the poolrooms are saving the information.

 

[satman]

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this to the people who recently paid the $2000 entry for the qualifier for the 2007 tour card, but contact your credit card company and dispute the charges and see if they'll do a refund. Just a thought. Hope you all get paid!!!!!!!!! Sam

 

[Timberly]

I doubt that you intended it but your post sort of suggested an "enemy within" theme and IMHO there is ZERO chance that is the case.

No, I did not intend that at all. It was basically an attempt to nip something in the bud before it happened.

When the list of who is on board with the unity and who isn't... people are going to ask why so & so isn't on board with the rest of the group.

When it comes to things of this matter... people banding together, if person X talks to person Y and person Y is on the fence, I think it's human nature for person X to give person Y their views in hopes that they'll agree and follow the way they're going. Not that there's anything wrong with it, but it happens. Some people are leaders and some are followers... the followers are going to follow the leaders they trust or admire.

My reason for mentioning Gerda to begin with was for 2 reasons... A) someone else singled her out and brought her up. B) Because of her strong friendship with Deno.

As this goes along, there are going to be people that feel quite strongly one way or the other. More than likely it'll come from people on here that are not involved and do not even have any friends involved in this but because someone doesn't choose the way this person feels they should, they'll get a hard time for it.

I've got my own thoughts as to what I think but I'm not involved. I'll simply say what I've been saying... educate yourself before you make your decision. If people make a choice that differs than what I think... "so what" ( ) What's best for them might not be best for me and I'll respect whatever choice anyone makes and not judge them... except for MS.

 

[Roadie]

Or, Trudeau just has his assets vastly diversified so that the things that were taken for the fine may have been all that the FTC could settle for without more litigation to discover Trudeau's true wealth. I wonder though if he cannot be held accountabel for his statements of wealth however, i.e. saying he's a biliionaire. Because if he really has that net worth, or companies he controls have that worth then he had better be paying his taxes or he could get nailed like Al Capone.

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

Hi Timberly...First let me again compliment you on your relentless efforts on behalf of the players. There is no question but that you have acted as a catalyst for aggressive action. You go girl.

As for KT's PERSONAL finances there are two issues..

1. Does he have the money and
2. Can the players access it.

As far as having it, I am a little surprised that anyone other than KT's closest advisers would have any clue about his wealth...or lack thereof.
Regards,
Jim

Aren't there ways of incorporating a business so that you can only sue the business and not the individuals who run it? If so, then it seems reasonable that KT set-up the IPT as a business entity wherein any liabilities incurred are the IPT's only (and not KT's).

 

[av84fun]

PoolsharkAllen...<<Aren't there ways of incorporating a business so that you can only sue the business and not the individuals who run it?>>

All businesses are set up that way...by default. There is a wall of protection under U.S. law for corporate (partnership...LLC. etc.) entities that protects officers from being sued personally.

Officers CAN be acted against personally as was famously done in Enron/Worldcom etc. but so long as the officers are conducting company "business as usual" even in many cases, if that business was unlawful, the executives are protected. The basis of the law is not to hold individuals who are not well versed in legal matters, responsible...i.e. execs don't have to be lawyers.

For example, if you are V.P Transportation and the CEO tells you to send 20 trucks to a neighboring state but one of the drivers kidnaps a 14 year old and transports here across state lines, you will NOT be subject to legal action since dispatching the trucks is your normal job and you couldn't have known about the kidnapping.

But if corporate officers commit fraud or other illegal acts that are NOT part of their jobs, then they can be held responsible personally.

But PROVING that an act is fraud...instead of wishful thinking, mistake, stupidity and a hundred other excuses is DIFFICULT!!!!!!!!!!

Regards,
Jim

 

[av84fun]

Timberly...<<No, I did not intend that at all.>>

GREAT! As noted, I didn't think you did. As I have stated, I just think that everyone must keep in mind that based on the sums owed...and LOTS of other factors, various pros will have VERY different points of view about what they should do or what people in their particular category should or shouldn't do.

You and I and TONS of others have felt free to express our views from our own unique points of view and EACH of the pros must be given the same latitude to have and express THIEIR points of view.

So whether any pro suggests to unite and sue or don't unite and don't sue BOTH pros can be exactly correct within the context of their own personal circumstances.

Regards,
Jim

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

Officers CAN be acted against personally as was famously done in Enron/Worldcom etc. but so long as the officers are conducting company "business as usual" even in many cases, if that business was unlawful, the executives are protected. The basis of the law is not to hold individuals who are not well versed in legal matters, responsible...i.e. execs don't have to be lawyers.

But if corporate officers commit fraud or other illegal acts that are NOT part of their jobs, then they can be held responsible personally.

But PROVING that an act is fraud...instead of wishful thinking, mistake, stupidity and a hundred other excuses is DIFFICULT!!!!!!!!!!

Regards,
Jim

Proving fraud may be difficult perhaps but certainly not impossible. If it can be proved that KT made a personal guarantee to put the first 2-3 years of tour prize money in escrow, then wouldn't the players' have a good case for fraud?

 

[ironman]

The problem I am seeing is the form of communication. Currently, the email list that started around with this last salvo, has 17 dead emails and some people aren't even on that list, so a good percentage aren't getting them. This morning, I am weeding out and comparing to my original email list.

Another point is that Sigel, among others on the list, are capable of just turning around and offering up the info back to the IPT. The women, being 15
of us, (16 counting Jasmin) we can call each other to stay in touch, but the men have the daunting task of organizing the rest PLUS the qualifiers. I don't see phone communication as being practical.

Anyone have any suggestions on that?

Can I get a list of what players have dead e-mails?

 

[ironman]

I think the IPT was just the catalyst, Blackjack has been trying to put together a Pro Pool Players Organization for the past 4 years. I do not think that what is happening now with the IPT's partial payment of promised monies would be happening had there already been such an organization in place. Then again, KT likely would have never even formed the IPT had such an organization existed...it's much easier to prey on an individual than a collective group.

I, for one, am saddened to see it all go the way it did...there was just so much hope for this tour to work.

Lisa

Very good point. Why is it that Blackjack is not involved now?

 

[ironman]

Good lord - one thing is certain - if there's action anywhere on Earth then there are people who know how to find the players to play it. AZ Billiards - this is YOUR TIME TO SHINE.

Please post a notice with information about who needs to be contacted and EACH AND EVERY ONE OF US needs to make sure that the people we know gets the information.

Print out 30 copies and take several to every pool room where an IPT pro might be. Let's make sure that the players are inundated with the right info so that they can unite. Let's help this group to assemble everyone's information and make sure it's backed up.

This much we can do.

Let us NOT allow any IPT player to flounder alone without the counsel of his or her peers. Someone please put the relevant information that is needed on this forum so that it's here to be referenced and disseminated. Surely that can be done.

Give me a phone number - an email address, a postal address, whatever and I will make sure the players I know get that information. If they get it from other sources then great - lets have 30 layers of redundancy when it comes to getting the correct information out to where it needs to be in the quickest possible amount of time.

I like that.

I worked with a CEO who used a similar phrase. 30 layers of redundancy.

 

[Da Poet]

Proving fraud may be difficult perhaps but certainly not impossible. If it can be proved that KT made a personal guarantee to put the first 2-3 years of tour prize money in escrow, then wouldn't the players' have a good case for fraud?

I'm not sure I follow this, but really, the best option right now is for the players to do what they are doing right now and organizing. All these legal issue things are still down the road.

The strongest (and least expensive) card the players have right now is the threat to boycott any future tournaments unless certain agreements are made. It wouldn't even take a 100% boycott, even a 50% boycott, or 10% by key players could make the broadcast value of the tournament worthless. This completely presumes that the IPT still has a heartbeat, which is debatable at best.

I've stopped watching the forum looking for any quick breakthrough or newsflash suddenly changing the situation. There are many more issues at stake here than just the Reno money and it will take weeks, probably months before this whole situation is resolved.

 

[Johnnyt]

I'm not sure I follow this, but really, the best option right now is for the players to do what they are doing right now and organizing. All these legal issue things are still down the road.

The strongest (and least expensive) card the players have right now is the threat to boycott any future tournaments unless certain agreements are made. It wouldn't even take a 100% boycott, even a 50% boycott, or 10% by key players could make the broadcast value of the tournament worthless. This completely presumes that the IPT still has a heartbeat, which is debatable at best.

I've stopped watching the forum looking for any quick breakthrough or newsflash suddenly changing the situation. There are many more issues at stake here than just the Reno money and it will take weeks, probably months before this whole situation is resolved.

I agree. Well stated. Johnnyt

 

[av84fun]

Poolsharkallen...<<Proving fraud may be difficult perhaps but certainly not impossible.>>

Stating that "difficult" does not include "impossible" is sort of illuminating the obvious.

<<If it can be proved that KT made a personal guarantee to put the first 2-3 years of tour prize money in escrow, then wouldn't the players' have a good case for fraud?>>


That's a big "if." Proof, in a court of law is often not easily achieved. But clearly, fraud would be KT's biggest concern at this point.

Regards,
Jim

 

[ineedaspot]

<<If it can be proved that KT made a personal guarantee to put the first 2-3 years of tour prize money in escrow, then wouldn't the players' have a good case for fraud?>>


That's a big "if." Proof, in a court of law is often not easily achieved. But clearly, fraud would be KT's biggest concern at this point.

Regards,
Jim

I'm kind of curious about this. I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not questioning or challenging this, and I'll take your word for it that it's hard to prove fraud in court. I'm also definitely not giving legal advice.

But, at risk of sounding naive, if KT actually said, either verbally (in front of every member of the IPT) or on the web site (I think both) that all prize money was guaranteed by a major accounting firm, and this was not the case, what would be the major impediments to proving this in court? I guess the web site is not a legal document, but that's where people got their IPT info from. That's also the way that they collected money for qualifiers.

And, at this very moment the front page of the IPT has the money list up indicating that Efren won 500k. Isn't this some sort of false advertising for people now entering qualifiers?


Another question. If fraud were actually proven, does that "open the floodgates," so to speak, in the sense that the IPT might then be vulnerable to a variety of legal charges from persons who are not "immediate victims." For example, could a case be mounted by organizers of other tourneys that were forced to reschedule because players were headed to Reno based on fraudulent promises? Or, as suggested in another thread, could anyone who ever played in any IPT qualifier, even those who lost, make some sort of case?

Also, might the government get involved in some sort of criminal investigation? They don't seem to like KT too much. Or is this stuff too small, compared to his natural cures stuff, for the FTC to care about?

Just wondering...

 

[av84fun]

ineedaspot...You ask some excellent questions which...not being a lawyer, I can't speculate about. But as a layman and not intending to give legal advice in this or any other thread...let me just say that among the difficulties of PROVING fraud is the establishment of INTENT.

For example...let's say some multi-billionaire Chinaman TOLD KT point blank that he WAS going to provide funding that that he WAS going to deposit funds with an accounting firm.

If KT truly believed that, would he have committed fraud by repeating it?

Trust me, NOTHING I have posted in this thread is in ANY WAY being supportive of KT or the IPT...the activities of which I find generally disgusting....INCLUDING their continuing to post Prize Money WON on their web site..as you pointed out.

I am just saying...out of 35 years of experience...navigating the legal justice system is a can of worms placed in a snake pit AT BEST...which is why 90%+ of all lawsuits filed end up settling before trial or the completion of trial.

That is NOT to say that no suit should be filed...FAR from it. It IS to say that it AIN'T easy...that those in the right do NOT always win and the bad guy does NOT always get punished to the extent reasonable people think they should.

Re: the rest of your questions, I don't have the experience to answer them.

Regards,
Jim

 

[AuntyDan]

ineedaspot...You ask some excellent questions which...not being a lawyer, I can't speculate about. But as a layman and not intending to give legal advice in this or any other thread...let me just say that among the difficulties of PROVING fraud is the establishment of INTENT.

For example...let's say some multi-billionaire Chinaman TOLD KT point blank that he WAS going to provide funding that that he WAS going to deposit funds with an accounting firm.

If KT truly believed that, would he have committed fraud by repeating it?

IF this all ends up in court and IF there was a ever a serious deal with Ho then there must be documentation, otherwise what have all the lawyers KT mentioned who told him he could not pay Reno himself been paid for?

IF this documentation exists it will be submitted as evidence. IF this documentation can be used to show there was at least a resonable (And "resonable" is something a judge or a jury get to decide) chance of a deal that would have allowed Reno to be fully funded prior to Reno taking place it MAY be a resonable defence.

To me the biggest question KT has to answer is at what time was the earliest moment when he knew he could not or would not fund 100% of the Reno prize purse? Before, during or after the event itself? This seems to me to be the moment when all his activities may have entered the region of fraud.

 

[issycue]

I agree with Jim, I too cannot prescribe legal advice, however legal action in general is not a bad idea at this point. At the very least, an investigation might reveal the debt structure of the entity (IPT)... knowing this could make or break further action for or against the player's financial remedy. For example, it wouldn't surprise me if one of Trudeau's entities is a primary debtor to the IPT, so that if there were any kind of judgement forcing the IPT into bacruptcy, Trudeau's entity would get paid first.

Regarding the thread topic, I would say uniting the players is a good move. A unified players group might be the first step in bailing out the IPT.

Perhaps the proposed payouts could be held in escrow or trust, once assigned by the IPT. If all the players agreed, each would become beneficiary to that escrow, via representative shares of an entity that acted as sole beneficiary; perhaps the IPT entity would remain trustee of that escrow. The idea is that the beneficiary entity (the players prize fund) could be leveraged to replace Trudeau in the IPT hierarchy, and the success of the IPT would be borne by all the player-participants.

I am sure there are more creative solutions... and kudos to the many thread authors who have chosen to voice solutions to ever developing problems of the IPT. I am certain that the strength of the players in unison will be the biggest deciding factor in the fate of the IPT. Good luck everyone!

 

[oneballeddie]

What he knew and when he knew it

To me the biggest question KT has to answer is at what time was the earliest moment when he knew he could not or would not fund 100% of the Reno prize purse? Before, during or after the event itself? This seems to me to be the moment when all his activities may have entered the region of fraud.

It was obviously sometime before the Reno event started, when he stood up at the players meeting and announced the London event was cancelled, that KT had decided to start shrinking the pot. And we can show on this forum the rumor of that cancellation was public at least a month before Reno. Cancelling Reno without explanation and without rescheduling it took $1.2M out of the "guaranteed" pot. In other words, he started pulling the plug before the first lag. Interestingly he also sprang the "Ho acquisition for $150M" and "London IPO" in this same players meeting - essentially trying to convince everybody that not only was all the money HE personally had promised still up for grabs (minus London for those that noted it) but also there was now an ADDED $150M coming online that wasn't there before.

Since the whole thing thereafter turned out to be a pack of lies what would we call it if not fraud?