IPT Refs...

Grilled Cheese

p.i.i.t.h.
Silver Member
Sorry if this offends anyone, but just have to share my $0.02 from my experience of being there for every single day of the tournament.


It almost seemed that the benefit of having professional matches refereed was totally eliminated by the tactics and behavior of the referees themselves. That's a shame. Refs are suppose to improve the game/sport and conditions - not make them worse. I was so glad to learn that they'll have refs until I saw how the refs did their job.


1] Sharking. You don't need to stand RIGHT UP TO THE TABLE with your fly pressed up against the rail to call a hit. You don't need to be exactly down the line of sight taking up 99% of the players sight-picture or breathing on the players arm. The referees became an obstacle to the players - something they shouldn't be.

It is so true in fact, that the players (being cutthroat) clued into this fact a few hours into day one and began to use the referees as a sharking tool. This carried on until day 3. I didn't see much of that after day 3 as the refs were much more reluctant to come to the table and watch a hit simply because the opponent sitting the chair is waving their hand around calling for a judgment. After day 2 they relied more on their own judgment as to what shouldn't and shouldn't be watched. At first, they would instantly jump to the table at any players demand to watch a hit regardless of the situation. Later on, they'd acknowledge the players request and look at the situation on the table first before commiting themselves to watching a hit that involves them sharking the player.


Did it work? Sure it did. After watching 8-10 hours of pool for 8 days - it was clear that players were getting totally sharked by the refs as the rate of errors seemed much higher when the ref was standing in their faces to watch a hit. This has nothing to do with the fact that the shots being called to watch are difficult - there were just as many situations that did not have a ref watching a difficult hit or watching the player's bridging that resulted in far less errors.


2] Calling hits.

Wow. Look at the Grady situation. That says it all. I didn't see the hit Grady made as I was watching the table next to that, but I did see the "scene" that was made after the call. Anyway, aside from blatantly bad calls, which there really weren't many of, my criticism here focuses on how the refs watch and call hits. For example, on certain situations where the cue ball is very close (almost frozen but not) to an object ball, you have to watch the hit from a particular side - OR, know in advance the only legal side of the cueball to actually strike using the elevated cue. You can call some hits from the results of the balls, others you have to watch which gets hit first - and some you must be in a certain spot to call them.


3] Watching clothes.

This is what the refs did most of. I saw about 3-4 fouls called the whole tournament for clothing, often around the waist area, touching other object balls. I'm sure there were more. The problem is, on most situations where the ref stooped down to eyeball the gap between the player's shirt and an object ball they are leaning over on - the referees were on the WRONG side of the player to determine whether or not a foul was about to occur. Depending on the shot, which hand the player uses, and how they lean against the table dictates which side you must view on in order to call a foul on the player. The player is NEVER 100% parallel with the surface of the table in order to judge clothing touching the ball simply when you no longer see light between the player and the ball from the other side. That's rediculous.


This was the best part. When Dennis Hatch was playing Ralf Souquet (group 66), Dennis had a very loose fitting shirt and during the hill-hill game - he leaned over for the shot and his shirt completely blanketed an object ball. I mean his shirt was hitting the cloth. Did the ref catch it? Nope. Both refs were nearby after having chatted with eachother for a second and the one responsible for this particular match was dozing off at the ceiling.


Ralf said "hold...this is a foul" while holding his hand making the "stop" gesture. While Ralf cannot get ball in hand for this as he has ZERO proof that the foul occured due to no ref watching Dennis, he did the right thing which was in his right to say. Ralf did nothing more than mention this to Dennis as you could tell from Ralf's reaction that he knew he had no way of getting justice. Dennis got up, tucked in his shirt so it would be closer to his body and then proceded to shoot. He missed the ball as I believe he was sharked by the incident (his own fault, not Ralf's), and I think (can't remember for sure) that this match was meaningless ot Ralf, but a win for Dennis meant advancement.

For all the idiotic, almost comical bending, stooping, leaning, peeking the refs did to watch for clothing fouls - they missed the absolute most blantant one of them all.

4] Time limits.

Oh boy, this is the worst of the worst. The tournament allowed 2 hours and 15 minutes per match. If the match was not finished in that amount of time - the match was called in favor of the person ahead in games. IE, if you're up 6-5 and time's up, you win. I believe this was abused a few times. Here's some background. When the match appears to be running slow - ie, score is 2-1 after 1:30 , the refs would bump up the score evenly, either a game for each, or 2 games for each. This was done to progress the match. However, this was not implemented universally. Some refs would do that early on in a match to ensure the players could play it out, others would slack off and warn the players when there was 15 minutes left then just call the match. They would hold their watches toward the end as if they were timing players or maybe keeping an eye on the clock - but that's pointless as there were clocks on the walls and often the offending slow-player would speed up their play when the ref was nearby with the watch.


This penalizes both players. If a particular player gets ahead and then begins totally obvious and downright annoyingly long slow play - the referee should take notice and penalize ONLY the slow player by awarding a game to the opponent. Look, a lot of the players played slow because if given the chance they'll take forever looking over a shot or a pattern, but a few were intentionally taking forever to freeze the opponent in the chair and run out the clock when ahead in a match. One player got up and down from a shot 12 times (I counted) before shooting. Shot took 7 minutes, and included 3 walk arounds AFTER the initial incoming inning walkaround and analysis that took quite a few minutes to begin with.


This player was a slow-play offender. Yet was never penalized, instead, depending on which ref was watching the matches involved - either the match was called, or both players bumped up in score (leaving the opponent less of a time frame and thus less opportunity to make a come back). Think about it. You might make up the 1 game deficit, but you can't do that when the other player is on the hill - you might not have the chance because it might take a couple of racks, or a successful break, or a run to do so. Bumping the score up (especially when the guy ontop is breaking) to the hill is unfair.


If this were one match, I wouldn't mind. But a particular player was involved in at least 4 matches of this type (that I know of, might have been more) with 2 of them being back-to-back. This means, that player was involved in a match that never reached 8 games for a winner, or had games added to both players scores.


To me, that indicated that that player has a track-record for being a slow player, whether intentional or not. The referees made NO NOTE OF THIS WHATSOEVER. Thus, this player's opponents were the victims of matches being called over at whatever the score was when the time was up. You cannot blame or penalize the other players when they've never been involved in a slow-play match, while the slow-player was involved in at least 4 matches that required the referees to intervene.


If both players are playing slow - FINE, bump them both up a game. If they both play slow - call the match finished. But when one player does it - fine the player a game. Not both players.

5] Announcing the wrong balls.


The refs would often announce the called shot - but they'd announce the wrong balls. The first few times this happened, I swear to God I thought I had hearing problems. Maybe it was the loud noise in Vegas messing with my ears. It wasn't. After a while I realized the refs were announcing balls from time to time that the player was not playing. The player would shoot the intended shot and the opponent would say nothing (as they know which one they're going for) but the ref would repeat the wrong ball.


6] Concessions.

OK, I understand that the IPT does not want the players conceding 8 balls and the such as A] it can be a sharking tactic and B] it cheapens the quality and seriousness of the tournament.


However, I had to laugh when Marlon Manalo was playing Efren Reyes. They both lagged for break and the balls were really close, however, it took no more than 1 second, 1 second for the players to see who won the lag. They began to do their thing (sit down and the other get their break cue) when the ref halts them and begins this, what appeared to me to be, an arbitrary measuring process that utilized his thumb and a cue ball. How silly. Is it really necessary to go through all this when BOTH players knew who won the lag and it was instantly conceded? Why does the ref assume he can see the difference better than Efren or Marlon who are 2 of the top 5 players on Earth? What makes this ref think that using a cue ball and his thumb is some repeatable and precise measuring device?

***

The refs did ok. I think most of these issues (except the time issues and the slacking off) were a result of them feeling pressure to officiate the matches as completely as possible. This made them some what overzealous I think and more of a problem than good in some instances. Refs in European cue sports are much more professional and skilled in all aspects (some mentioned above) and I think this is a result of experience as the Europeans have had and have demanded refereed tournaments for many years that we have not in the U.S.
 
Another blatant foul was the one committed by Mike Sigel against me in the TV round, where he MOVED my 15 ball about 2" with a ref standing right there! The whole VIP section saw it. Even Mike's sponsors commended me later for the way I comported myself over the missed call.

Someone later told me I should have asked the ref to watch for the foul, but I didn't think I should have to if he was standing right there! Anyone who taped it, you can see the difference in the 15-ball position between his 2 shots. When I called it, the ref said simply that he did not see it. That was incredible!

That would have made it 6-4 with me breaking, instead of putting him on the hill 7-3. :( It set the mood for the whole day.

The same thing happened to Mike Z. where the cueball was almost done rolling (an inch or 2 more) after he made the 8. He swept the balls up to push them to the racker and when Brian Groce called the ref, the ref took away his game and gave it to Brian!!! :mad: This made the score 5-3 instead of 4-4.

Later, Mike called the foul on Luat, and they only gave him a warning. Later, I talked to the head ref and he said it should have only been a warning for Mike, instead of his loss of game.

The match went hill-hill which he lost and it affected his play all day as well. We have both learned from this not to take negative feelings into the next matches as every game is so huge.

By the same token, I know the refs were overworked, standing on their feet long hours. :o
 
Ah yeah! Forgot about that foul Linda. That was another one. I wasn't there to see it as I only saw part of your match, but I did hear about it.


The refs called a loss of game for Rico Diks on one particular match when he began sweeping balls uptable for racking when the cue ball was still moving. Moving as in the cue balls last .25" of roll somewhere in the middle of the table. No where near a scratch and with almost zero speed. Was hard to tell if it was actually stopped when he touched the balls because it was almost at the same time and at the end of the movement.


That's in the rules, but they didn't enforce them equally. I saw some refs letting players sweep the balls up when there was still quite a bit of movement and never even warn them or call a game for it.


That was a tough situation there with Sigel. I almost have to wonder if the refs were intimidated by him and as a result were reluctant to call a foul or engage in a controversy with him. He'll yell at them or talk up a storm. He was already talking to the entire crowd while you were shooting. Moaning, complaining, b1tching, making comments, talking about the patterns. "The Mouth" is truly the best nickname for him ever. If you're not used to that and have built up some thick skin - he can shark opponents pretty bad with his behavior. I brought that up because this was in the TV arena, and refs would issue warnings to other players who were talking when not at the table. Rules state that when the opponent is shooting, you must be in your seat. There were times he wasn't.
 
The tournament director requested that the referees get up very close to the table and/or player. I’m sure that the tournament director has the opinion that the referees didn’t get close enough most of the time. The players and spectators should note that the IPT playing conditions are intended to be harsh and having referees close is one of those conditions.

It is expected that the players show respect to the referees. The tournament director has little tolerance for disrespect towards the referees. The referees in at least two instances were lenient towards outburst by the players. As Grady Mathews notes, he risked being knocked off the tour for his outburst.

Readers should be careful when reading Grady’s account of his shot. It is difficult to accurately recreate the exact conditions of a shot. Everyone has a different perspective and memory of a given shot. The paths of the balls tell the story and this is what the referee watches for. For Grady’s shot, standing behind the shooter on the line of aim is a very good place to watch the shot. On possible double hit shots, standing on either side on the tangent line is a good place.

When watching for touch fouls when a player is shooting over a ball, the referee is not only looking to see if there is a gap, they are also looking for the clothing to be deflected by the contact or the ball being moved. During the first half of the tournament, the referees were watching several tables. It is not always possible to get to the table quickly and be on the correct side of the player without disturbing the player or nearby players. The referees tried to do the best that they could under the conditions.

The tournament rules that the players were given and were discussed at the players meeting include a line that says that if a shot is in question; call a referee before the shot. Complaining that the referee couldn’t make a call after the fact is misdirecting the blame from the opponent. If you were playing for the amount of money in this tournament, wouldn’t you stop the shooter and call a referee to watch?

After 30 minutes, the referees would check to see that the matches were progressing as expected. If not, they would warn both players that the match was falling behind and that they needed to pick up the pace to avoid delay of game penalties. At 60 minutes, if the match was still behind, then the offending player was penalized. If it wasn’t clear if one or both players were delaying the match, then both players were penalized. With the referees watching several tables, it was difficult to watch for fouls and monitor the pace. If I were playing, I make sure I didn’t get a delay of game penalty to protect my tie breaking percentage of wins statistic. After one player built a track record of slow play, the tournament director informed the referees that is was not necessary to warn this player before awarding a delay of game penalty. The playing conditions are tough and this is one of the conditions. Don’t blame the referees for applying the rules that were discussed at the players meeting.

The referees were not perfect and did make mistakes. It’s easy to criticize them when you don’t have full understanding of what they were asked to do and the conditions they were working under, or what the player’s responsibilities were. It might be best to ask questions before posting.
 
Another interesting call

Overall an amazing event. However, there was one call I observed in the match between Thorston Hohmann and Efren Reyes that I could not get out of my mind.

Hohmann played a safety twice in a row on Efren, who was on the 8-ball. Efren missed the second kick. The ref picked up the cue ball and said, "No contact with object ball, loss of game."

Both Thorston and Efren stood still immediately, there was a silent pause for a few seconds, even the watching crowd who heard the call were in a stunned silence. Then Thorston gently said to the ref, that no he only had ball in hand and that it was not a loss of game.

Then the ref proceeded to hand over the cue ball to Thorsten. What is concerning here was the reaction from the ref who did not seem to acknowledge his faux pas. I know they are tired, everyone makes mistakes, we are all human, but this particular ref also had the habit in all the matches I saw him call where he practically stood on top of the players when watching a hit. Seriously, I have a picture of this happening. This is a real testiment of the concentration skills of the players who made it to the top 18, 6...finals. They really had to endure some interesting situations on a daily basis I think.

I am sure the pressure was felt by the ref team being the first event. Overall, as I mentioned it was a wonderful event and I am sure the issues that arose this first time around will be discussed and rectified going into Reno.
 
Mark

Mark, lighten up man. When I teach I tell people that you have to be able to set shots back up the way they were so you can correct your mistakes. All pros, including me, can do this. I actually recreated the shot, making it not as easy it was.
I repeat, it wasn't even close to being a foul, yet I had to eat that horrible call. If you have to sling mud let me join you by saying that being a BCA ref doesn't mean much. I'd a lot rather have a pro call anything I do than a BCA man.
I watched one of Earl's matches and his ref was inept beyond description and I later noticed this same official(?) doing matches in the TV room. Lastly, do you really think that ref knows better than I do whether or not it was a foul? At 63, I had made my mind up to have a great attitude and work extra hard on my game for Vegas but I didn't plan on being robbed.
 
Grady said:
At 63, I had made my mind up to have a great attitude and work extra hard on my game for Vegas but I didn't plan on being robbed.

Matthews tournament win percentage 30.43%. Record 14-32. 0 head to head wins out of 4.

Matthews King of the Hill record 15-39. 1 head to head win out of 5.

Are you so sure this one call is the reason you didn't move on?
 
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Bola Ocho said:
Sorry if,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,tournaments for many years that we have not in the U.S.

the big prize was $350,000. let me repeat,,,$350,000!!! imo, that deserves more scrutiny. the players should adjust. that's part of any sport,,,adjusting to the refs. and for that kind of money, the players will have to eat it and like it. at least, as you say, overall the refs were good.
 
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Grady,

I don't discount what you believe you saw, just like I don’t' discount what the referee believes they saw. I can't say if it was a good or bad call since I didn't see it. I can't say if your recreation is accurate or not for the same reason. I find it pointless to discuss any shot after the next shot is taken because the evidence is lost.

I agree that the referees need improvement, but I have confidence that they are not inept. I hope you would agree that out of the thousands of shots watched; the vast majority of them were called correctly.

I'm just trying to shed some light on the flip side since the referees are taking an unfair bashing.
 
Cool! I got told to GFY by a hall of famer!

Mr. Matthews, I have always respected you and what you have done for the game. Perhaps instead of getting beat out of tournaments so badly and blaming it on one referee call...maybe you should become a referee yourself? Then you can get publicly bashed and criticized for a fraction of what the players make?

I spoke with the head ref myself. He said there were 10 refs (12 hours a day) to cover 60 tables. Not 10 refs relieved by 10 other refs...the same 10 . Each watching 6 tables a piece. How can you have "all ball fouls" and then expect a referee to watch six tables? The IPT wants players to call fouls on themselves. Crazy concept or not...it is their expectation. Players were complaining about the refs moving around trying to get a good perspective and at the same time complaining they weren't in the right position.

Besides, this was the first major tournament with so many players. The players, cameramen and refs are all trying to figure out how to work within the framework the IPT has put in place. Were some calls probably missed? Sure. Have you seen missed calls at the pro level before? I know I have.

Everyone is getting used to this new format.
 
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Watchez (from another thread) said:
I for one, think the BCA refs are in need of improvement. They have been the same for the past 10 years that I have seen them in action. I would say 7 out of 10 times they are standing on the wrong side of the table to watch a hit. I experienced one that was more interested in drinking then doing his job in Vegas last year. I guess the alcohol was being used to soothe his sore feet. When it came time for him to call a foul in my match, he yelled out foul on the opposing player. It was a perfectly good hit so I even asked how it was a foul. The ref said that the 7 ball didn't even move. I said, he is stripes (as he was told before the shot) and then got a deer in a headlight stare from him. After that, I agreed with my opponent to call our own fouls. I'll give you a free tip on how to deal with a BCA referee, something I learned last May. You have to 'shark' the referee. If you are going to make a shot & know it is going to be a good hit...simply say to the ref, "I don't know why you were called & sorry to waste your time. This is obviously going to be a good hit". I bet you never get called for a foul. Works everytime.

This is pretty much what I'm talking about. Look, they did a good job overall - but are in serious need of some training/adjustment. Perhaps the IPT should get a few more refs so the table load is lesser, like 3 per ref instead of 6. They just don't have the type of professionalism in refereeing found in other cue sports. 12 hours a day, multiple tables - yes, PITA conditions, but at least when to comes to how to watch a hit, this is not an excuse. Doesn't matter how tired, busy, or whatever you are - the hits they DO GET TO WATCH, should be watched correctly, not from the wrong side. BTW, they had plenty of time and ease to get into the proper position. For example, if there's a serious hit coming up (to know if it is a hit in need of a good look requires knowledge) they have plenty of time to watch it. They wasted more of their effort watching players bridging that does not require that you stand right up to the table. You can see these fouls from further away.


If the tournament director requested this type of refereeing, then I don't know what to say about that. It isn't the refs fault for being right up on the table in a players face. Regardless, they were lacking in other areas.


Truth be told, I'd rather have this officiating than NO officiating. Regardless of a few extremely bad calls and the refs being generally a disruption. Imagine this tournament without refs? Would be a disaster. The arguments and controversies would alter the mood and atmosphere of what was a great tournament. Refs will occasionally make bad calls, even horrible calls - that's the nature of humanity. If they were a little less conspicuous and a touch more keen on what to watch and from where...then there would be nothing to complain about.


I'm almost 100% positive that there will be adjustments made for Reno.

:)
 
Bola Ocho said:
... Perhaps the IPT should get a few more refs so the table load is lesser, like 3 per ref instead of 6. ...
If you want few bad calls, it can't be 3 tables per or 2 tables per. It has to be one ref on each table, and those refs can't be expected to work more than half the rounds.

I did the calculation in another thread. $500,000 more or less to do full officiating, not counting the cost of training the additional referees. That would take at least a week, I would guess.
 
Mark Avlon said:
The tournament director requested that the referees get up very close to the table and/or player. I’m sure that the tournament director has the opinion that the referees didn’t get close enough most of the time. The players and spectators should note that the IPT playing conditions are intended to be harsh and having referees close is one of those conditions.

It is expected that the players show respect to the referees. The tournament director has little tolerance for disrespect towards the referees. The referees in at least two instances were lenient towards outburst by the players. As Grady Mathews notes, he risked being knocked off the tour for his outburst.

Readers should be careful when reading Grady’s account of his shot. It is difficult to accurately recreate the exact conditions of a shot. Everyone has a different perspective and memory of a given shot. The paths of the balls tell the story and this is what the referee watches for. For Grady’s shot, standing behind the shooter on the line of aim is a very good place to watch the shot. On possible double hit shots, standing on either side on the tangent line is a good place.

When watching for touch fouls when a player is shooting over a ball, the referee is not only looking to see if there is a gap, they are also looking for the clothing to be deflected by the contact or the ball being moved. During the first half of the tournament, the referees were watching several tables. It is not always possible to get to the table quickly and be on the correct side of the player without disturbing the player or nearby players. The referees tried to do the best that they could under the conditions.

The tournament rules that the players were given and were discussed at the players meeting include a line that says that if a shot is in question; call a referee before the shot. Complaining that the referee couldn’t make a call after the fact is misdirecting the blame from the opponent. If you were playing for the amount of money in this tournament, wouldn’t you stop the shooter and call a referee to watch?

After 30 minutes, the referees would check to see that the matches were progressing as expected. If not, they would warn both players that the match was falling behind and that they needed to pick up the pace to avoid delay of game penalties. At 60 minutes, if the match was still behind, then the offending player was penalized. If it wasn’t clear if one or both players were delaying the match, then both players were penalized. With the referees watching several tables, it was difficult to watch for fouls and monitor the pace. If I were playing, I make sure I didn’t get a delay of game penalty to protect my tie breaking percentage of wins statistic. After one player built a track record of slow play, the tournament director informed the referees that is was not necessary to warn this player before awarding a delay of game penalty. The playing conditions are tough and this is one of the conditions. Don’t blame the referees for applying the rules that were discussed at the players meeting.

The referees were not perfect and did make mistakes. It’s easy to criticize them when you don’t have full understanding of what they were asked to do and the conditions they were working under, or what the player’s responsibilities were. It might be best to ask questions before posting.

I happen to know a certain referee who was involved in a certain controversy, and let me just say I was shocked to see him as a referee. The guy cannot play a lick of pool. You are an instructor, so at least you can play. But the other guy is lucky to run 4 balls in rotation. Don't you think that a referee should be at least a halfway decent player to understand certain shots to make the correct call?

And how about the slow players getting rewarded for slow play if they are in the lead? I heard about 10 different complaints about Mike Zimmerman and Danny Basavich playing ridiculously slow. All of a sudden they get awarded an extra game for that? That is a silly rule. The slow player should be penalized, not the guy in his chair.
 
The grady shot was indeed a foul. I seen the object ball slightly move before the cue ball hit the 8 ball. He had missed a bunch of easy shots that set and easy outs. This was a tough shot and I guess he figured that the game of pool owed him a call. But the ref made the right judgement this time. godbless
 
cuetechasaurus said:
I happen to know a certain referee who was involved in a certain controversy, and let me just say I was shocked to see him as a referee. The guy cannot play a lick of pool. You are an instructor, so at least you can play. But the other guy is lucky to run 4 balls in rotation. Don't you think that a referee should be at least a halfway decent player to understand certain shots to make the correct call?

A referee must know the rules, understand the physics involved in a shot, know where to position themselves to see the shot, and be able to deal with people. You don't have to be a player to be able to do these well.

As Bob pointed out, there are some very good players that don't know the rules. It seems that they would not make a good referee without training.
 
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