Is 30 Degrees (1/2 Ball) The Best Cut Angle for Position Play?

This is the main reason why I believe that some teach shooting alot at the side pocket can be a disadvantage, b/c your usually limited to one direction as to how the CB can travel after.........


Grey Ghost, you must be a better player than most. Many do not understand that playing shape to shoot balls in to the side pockets has many downsides. When playing I always determine if taking the longer shot into the corner is better positionally then taking the easier shot in the side.

My rule of thumb is always play for the easiest shape/position, not the easiest shot.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Cuts that are about 30 degrees (1/2 ball) offer many position play advantages
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No, only one: NR carom angle insensitivity. Using the word "about" seems to be clouding your judgment regarding the other 'advantages' because you're assuming the cut angle range that gives predictable NR carom angles holds for them as well. Unfortunately, they don't. Rolling distances, draw caroms, shot sighting and "spin multiplication" (my term for how spin changes off the rails depending on cut fullness) are all sensitive in this range even as the NR carom angle doesn't change much.

More importantly, as Dead Crab mentioned, throw is most sensitive to ball state around a 1/2-ball hit. As strong as the pocketing skills of the champions are, ALL of them seem to be confounded by half ball stun shots and frequently miss them even while they're making everything else look easy Archer, Mika, Souquet, SvB, etc. -even Efren - have lost important games and even matches because of them. Just watch the videos, and the biggest predictor of an impending miss by a champ is whether they're shooting a half ball stun (or close to stun) shot. The throw curve is apparently very counter-intuitive even after those million balls :)

Robert
 
center pocket said:
This is the main reason why I believe that some teach shooting alot at the side pocket can be a disadvantage, b/c your usually limited to one direction as to how the CB can travel after.........


Grey Ghost, you must be a better player than most. Many do not understand that playing shape to shoot balls in to the side pockets has many downsides. When playing I always determine if taking the longer shot into the corner is better positionally then taking the easier shot in the side.

My rule of thumb is always play for the easiest shape/position, not the easiest shot.
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I dont really agree with this statement, It really depends upon the player
and the situation at hand. If you are cutting thick into the side pocket
you can go just about any where on the table , I think it is player preference
 
Robert Raiford said:
the biggest predictor of an impending miss by a champ is whether they're shooting a half ball stun (or close to stun) shot. The throw curve is apparently very counter-intuitive even after those million balls :)
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One of the big challenges of pool is compensating for the effects of squirt, swerve, and throw (CIT or SIT) when appropriate (e.g., adjusting for throw with a slow, 1/2-ball-hit stun shot). FYI, I have a good list of all of the important effects here (below the videos):

There are many "excuses" when you miss a shot.

Check them out,
Dave
 
true but if the shorter route is the correct route, then your good. If you are the wrong side of the shot into the side, you now have to go multiple rails which makes speed control more difficult. Include into the equation the traffic on the table that can block those multi rail routes and your run might be over.

Trust me my statement holds water. Try playing the ghost only using the corner pockets for a week straight, your positional choices will get better and your game will get at least a half a ball better.
 
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center pocket said:
This is the main reason why I believe that some teach shooting alot at the side pocket can be a disadvantage, b/c your usually limited to one direction as to how the CB can travel after.........


Grey Ghost, you must be a better player than most. Many do not understand that playing shape to shoot balls in to the side pockets has many downsides. When playing I always determine if taking the longer shot into the corner is better positionally then taking the easier shot in the side.

My rule of thumb is always play for the easiest shape/position, not the easiest shot.
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I hate shooting to the side pocket myself. I usually like to play position for the corner if possible. Sometimes you need to pocket a ball in the side or bank. Earl Strickland prefers the corners as well...
 
center pocket said:
This is the main reason why I believe that some teach shooting alot at the side pocket can be a disadvantage, b/c your usually limited to one direction as to how the CB can travel after.........


Grey Ghost, you must be a better player than most. Many do not understand that playing shape to shoot balls in to the side pockets has many downsides. When playing I always determine if taking the longer shot into the corner is better positionally then taking the easier shot in the side.

My rule of thumb is always play for the easiest shape/position, not the easiest shot.
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The Grey Ghost is a razor and if you mess with him he will dice you up like Leroy Brown. :cool:
 
Depends on the size of the table, the game, and at what point in the lay-out.....

Early in any rack, I prefer stop shots......move whitey as little as possible, hit the ball only as hard as necessary.....as the rack progresses, especially if I have to go up and down the table, I prefer the 30....

Also, 7 footers, stop shots, limited movement of whitey.....bigger tables, angles are fine as it's easier to work through traffic...
 
34.5 degrees is the nuts!!!

Well....the way I see it is....There is a total angle range of degree between 0 and 90.

You can throw out the first 10 (0-10) degrees as it leaves very little opportunity for controle of the cue ball (other than forward or back)...You can also throw out the last 10 (81-90) degrees as it usually is nothing more than a cinch shot with the only control being CB speed and perhaps some applied spin on the CB to affect the angle as it contacts the rail.

That being said...we are left with 11 degrees through 80 degrees as the range where we have any real control over the CB.

That gives us a total range of 69 degrees of (effective) control......the logic of my messed up wacky brain tells me that I would probably want to be right dead in the middle so as to have the most control over CB reactions from either side of the degree range spetrum.....

So...I would prefer land on a shot angle of......34.5 degrees.....;):grin:


BTW.....I have also heard Hal reference the 30 degree angle as the "Golden" angle.
 
BRKNRUN said:
Well....the way I see it is....There is a total angle range of degree between 0 and 90.

You can throw out the first 10 (0-10) degrees as it leaves very little opportunity for controle of the cue ball (other than forward or back)...You can also throw out the last 10 (81-90) degrees as it usually is nothing more than a cinch shot with the only control being CB speed and perhaps some applied spin on the CB to affect the angle as it contacts the rail.

That being said...we are left with 11 degrees through 80 degrees as the range where we have any real control over the CB.

That gives us a total range of 69 degrees of (effective) control......the logic of my messed up wacky brain tells me that I would probably want to be right dead in the middle so as to have the most control over CB reactions from either side of the degree range spetrum.....

So...I would prefer land on a shot angle of......34.5 degrees.....;):grin:


BTW.....I have also heard Hal reference the 30 degree angle as the "Golden" angle.
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Ok, thanks for the confirmation. Since Hal spent so much time with Ralph Greenleaf it is very likely that is where he got the "Golden Angle" from
 
JoeyA said:
Ok, thanks for the confirmation. Since Hal spent so much time with Ralph Greenleaf it is very likely that is where he got the "Golden Angle" from
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Bob Jewett once wrote a bunch of interesting stuff on the special properties of the 1/2 ball hit and why it was especially important in games like English billiards. Maybe it's archived somewhere online?
 
demonrho said:
Bob Jewett once wrote a bunch of interesting stuff on the special properties of the 1/2 ball hit and why it was especially important in games like English billiards. Maybe it's archived somewhere online?
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Maybe here http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html -- try November of 2000. I also did series of three shorter articles for On The Break News, but I can't find it on-line right now.

As for the OP's question, it has long been common wisdom at nine ball that if you aren't sure what to do, you may as well try for position on a 30-degree cut shot. It's usually not too hard to kill the cue ball or to move it around the table from that fullness. Also, if you go immediately into a cushion, half-ball fullness lets any side spin work well -- thinner and you have to work too hard against the cue ball's speed; thicker doesn't get enough "grab" on the rail especially on new cloth.
 
demonrho said:
Bob Jewett once wrote a bunch of interesting stuff on the special properties of the 1/2 ball hit and why it was especially important in games like English billiards. Maybe it's archived somewhere online?
Click to expand...

Bob Jewett said:
Maybe here http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html -- try November of 2000. I also did series of three shorter articles for On The Break News, but I can't find it on-line right now.

As for the OP's question, it has long been common wisdom at nine ball that if you aren't sure what to do, you may as well try for position on a 30-degree cut shot. It's usually not too hard to kill the cue ball or to move it around the table from that fullness. Also, if you go immediately into a cushion, half-ball fullness lets any side spin work well -- thinner and you have to work too hard against the cue ball's speed; thicker doesn't get enough "grab" on the rail especially on new cloth.
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In English billiards, when you are scoring by a sequence of scratches, you get bih and can therefore usually choose your shape very precisely. The hb angle is the easiest for making the shot (for the reasons that Patrick and Bob have set out). But for positional purposes good players almost always play a 'thick hb' run through rather than a true hb.

In other games, I wonder whether a reasonable generalisation would be to say that the hb advantages tend to become valuable in rotation games. For example in 9 ball, you will often be forced to send the cb round around the table; and here speed control can take priority over pocketing the ball.

This contrasts with games where you are able choose your next shot: In such cases the preference is to keep the cb under close control and a thicker hit is usually preferable. For example in snooker, most frequently the ideal shape will be a 3/4 ball hit.

Just a thought.
 
Bob Jewett said:
demonrho said:
Bob Jewett once wrote a bunch of interesting stuff on the special properties of the 1/2 ball hit and why it was especially important in games like English billiards. Maybe it's archived somewhere online?
Click to expand...
Maybe here http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html -- try November of 2000. I also did series of three shorter articles for On The Break News, but I can't find it on-line right now.

As for the OP's question, it has long been common wisdom at nine ball that if you aren't sure what to do, you may as well try for position on a 30-degree cut shot. It's usually not too hard to kill the cue ball or to move it around the table from that fullness. Also, if you go immediately into a cushion, half-ball fullness lets any side spin work well -- thinner and you have to work too hard against the cue ball's speed; thicker doesn't get enough "grab" on the rail especially on new cloth.
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Bob,

Thanks for the link. I hadn't looked at that article in a while. Also, I like your paragraph.

FYI to people who are interested, here are some additional articles on this extremely important principle of pool:

Also, additional resources, along with numerous video demonstrations, can be found here:

Enjoy,
Dave
 
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