Is 30 Degrees (1/2 Ball) The Best Cut Angle for Position Play?

Patrick Johnson said:
Cuts that are about 30 degrees (1/2 ball) offer many position play advantages:

  • A 30-degree cut gives a reasonably wide range of control over the CB's after-collision direction and speed.

  • If the CB/OB cut angle is anywhere near 30 degrees (1/2 ball), a rolling cue ball's path after collision will be at a predictable 30 degree angle from the CB's original direction.

  • The 30-degree CB path is easy to visualize accurately because it's about the same as the CB/OB cut angle (in the opposite direction).

  • A rolling CB and the OB will each travel about the same distance after a 1/2 ball collision.

  • If the CB is hit with good draw it's path after collision will be at a predictable 90 degrees from the CB's original direction.

For aiming purposes, a 30-degree cut is still close enough to straight in to be "easy", so given the above position-play advantages, is a 30-degree (1/2 ball) cut the optimum position target for most shots?

pj
chgo
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I guess I agree with the above generalization.

However, let's put the question another way. What cut angle maximizes your ability to place the CB just about anywhere on the table? When worded this way, I would say the best cut angle would be something smaller than 30 degrees. Maybe like 15-20 degrees.
 
JoeyA said:
Somewhere or someone (probably Hal if it was someone) once told me that the 1/2 ball hit/cut shot (30 degrees) is called the "Golden Angle". I'm wondering if anyone else has ever heard of this. Hal may have said that he heard Ralph Greenleaf call this shot by that name. Maybe someone else can confirm this or not.

Patrick, as usual is correct about the benefits to the half ball hit.

I'm not sure if he or anyone else mentioned that it is also the EASIEST shot to shoot because of the well defined edge of the object ball, unless you are using CTE/Pro One then all shots are easy. :D:D:D Ok, when I'm joking really well, I will use three big grins. Not trying to hijack the thread. For those who don't know what a half ball hit/shot is: YOu simply aim through the center of the cue ball and aim the center of your tip at the edge of the object ball.
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half-ball hit part 1
half-ball hit part 2
 
C J Wiley makes a comment in his video that he likes to play for position to have approximately 1/2 ball on every shot.

The problem is the difference between likes to and getting or being left.

Ideally it would be easy if you could get that position but realistically I don't think that it is possible or really needed. There are some patterns that just require a series of stop shots so there would be no reason to be moving the CB excessively to get that angle when a simple stop shot is all that is needed.
 
TheBook said:
C J Wiley makes a comment in his video that he likes to play for position to have approximately 1/2 ball on every shot.

The problem is the difference between likes to and getting or being left.

Ideally it would be easy if you could get that position but realistically I don't think that it is possible or really needed. There are some patterns that just require a series of stop shots so there would be no reason to be moving the CB excessively to get that angle when a simple stop shot is all that is needed.
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Of course the 30-degree rule of thumb only applies to shots on which you'd want a cut angle anyway, and even then it's just a rule of thumb.

1/2 ball can also function as a "reference" for position play similar to the way it's a common reference for aiming - the indentifiable and predictable center of the hits, a landmark from which to guage, predict and control the CB's path.

pj
chgo
 
I'll say no. The angle you want is the angle that will lead you to your next, to your next shot and so on.

You can never have all the balls laid out such that a 30 degrees or 1/2 ball hit (whatever that it is) will lead to your next shot.

The most important thing mentioned got overlooked and that is to learn to use the natural flow of the CB to run balls.

The most important thing for position play is knowing what you want to do and then doing it.

FWIW
 
I'm gonna have to agree with Patrick...If there was one angle I would feel comfortable about getting anywhere on the table with, it would be 30 degrees. Of course, table layout dictates the use of other angles, as well as straight in shots, but I feel for the most part, 30 degrees is a good angle to shoot for.
 
If I am allowed to use English, then I like a fuller hit which allows me to slow down the CB. With the 30 degree angle, you have to send the CB to one for more rails to get the same CB shape as a fuller hit.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Cuts that are about 30 degrees (1/2 ball) offer many position play advantages...
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There's a very good shot maker at our pool room who uses 1/2 ball as his reference for shooting all shots but straight-ins. He just finds 1/2 ball then adjusts either thicker or thinner for whatever shot. He banks well too using the 1/2 ball reference.
 
Patrick is right and I'm surprised that this knowledge is being scoffed at somewhat. I learned this from CJ Wiley years ago. 30 degrees is his "favorite angle"

That knowledge has served me well in 9 ball especially for years. Like the 1000s of times I've gotten ball in hand and used it. Or when I see a stop shot will leave me 30 degrees on the next shot I'll stop. And if it's going to leave me at 40 degrees I'll plan to follow a few inches to get to 30 degrees.

The best part of the angle is you don't have to use as much stun or speed. You can just hit nice and smooth with just right or left or center and the speed distance is so easy to predict.

Good thread Patrick.
 
I was taught not to be too dogmatic about this-- that any cut angle between 15 and 45 degrees is generally useful for getting position anywhere on the table when one has to move the cue ball a fair distance. I've always found this to be good practice, and (obviously) 30 degrees is right in the middle of this range.

That said, I tend to like a slightly fuller hit-- say 20 to 25 degrees-- as my ideal "leave". The reasons have been mentioned already: 1) the straighter the shot, the greater the margin of error in aiming and stroking; and 2) the slightly straighter angle lets me put a touch more speed on the object ball (useful for overcoming any rolloff on the table) without putting too much speed on the cueball.

Just my $0.02, YMMV.
 
30 degrees

Someone told me years ago to try to get the same angles on balls when you need to move the cueball around a bit just because you will be comfortable with that shot and make it more often . I play for 32.5 degrees but thats because it's an orange number whereas 30 degrees is a green number and everyone knows green numbers are bad luck.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
....

  • If the CB/OB cut angle is anywhere near 30 degrees (1/2 ball), a rolling cue ball's path after collision will be at a predictable 30 degree angle from the CB's original direction.

    ....

  • If the CB is hit with good draw it's path after collision will be at a predictable 90 degrees from the CB's original direction.
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Patrick,

Probably a nitpick, but in the case of "good draw," I think maybe you're using "predictable" in a different or weaker sense than for a rolling CB? A 90-degree path is certainly easy to visualize, but as far as getting it on that path, it's more or less at the other end of the spectrum in terms of predictability, compared to a rolling CB. That is, it tends to be maximally sensitive to tip offset and changes in spin from cloth drag en route to the OB. However, and I think this is more in line with your point, it does provide a very discernible reference to shoot for, or modify as needed.

Just splitting some hairs.

Jim
 
I def agree that a 30º cut is the most often found on the table....tho I don't associate that most often found shot to be equally the best angle for gaining position.

Now for certain types of position such as traveling the length of table when shooting into a corner and taking the CB SR (short-rail) LR (long-rail) to the other end....then yea thats about the best position there b/c it makes the rails "bigger" just like you can make a pocket bigger in banks by tightening or lenghtening to make the ball meet the back of the center of the pocket more "square" so it b/c bigger opening....same idea.

In reality (my reality) I want the angle thats going to be on the advantage side leading me to the next shot.......

BUT......I like to play what some call "SHORT POSITION" on that advantage side. This "Short Position" is basically positioning the CB in a way that even if I mess up a little I can gain access to my next position in two ways instead of one......like i could go left or right or up or down........etc.....

This is the main reason why I believe that some teach shooting alot at the side pocket can be a disadvantage, b/c your usually limited to one direction as to how the CB can travel after.........

just like you can force someone into a bad spot in one hole by leaving their ball by the side pocket.......leads to scratches or god knows what.......you can also say in a game of 8 ball move an opponents ball towards the side to make himself shoot in a specific direction that is leading him into a trap.....and they do it too, b/c they love shooting for the hole at all costs lol

-Grey Ghost-
 
JoeyA said:
Somewhere or someone (probably Hal if it was someone) once told me that the 1/2 ball hit/cut shot (30 degrees) is called the "Golden Angle". I'm wondering if anyone else has ever heard of this. Hal may have said that he heard Ralph Greenleaf call this shot by that name. Maybe someone else can confirm this or not.
Click to expand...

Joey I have heard about that "Golden Angle" don't know if thats something I read or saw online in the 18 times I've read the internet.....or if it was relayed in person by some old wolf......but I'm pretty sure that it was accredited to Ralph.

Not that I'm old enough and can say 100% certain but I do know I've came across that myself also.

FWIW,
-Grey Ghost-
 
demonrho said:
There's a very good shot maker at our pool room who uses 1/2 ball as his reference for shooting all shots but straight-ins. He just finds 1/2 ball then adjusts either thicker or thinner for whatever shot. He banks well too using the 1/2 ball reference.
Click to expand...
This is essentially how I think CTE works (with some added "patter").

pj
chgo
 
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