lewdo26 said:
Very tough tables too. 8 ball or 9 ball will yield fewer runs on these I would imagine. Imagine the 8 ball runs if on a standard Brunswick with 860.
Is 8-ball Really 'Real Pool'?
- Thread starter cuetechasaurus
- Start date
Very tough tables too. 8 ball or 9 ball will yield fewer runs on these I would imagine. Imagine the 8 ball runs if on a standard Brunswick with 860.
SlimShafty said:
Much more realistic. Still a very high percentage considering equipment.
As far as the general public is concerned, 8 ball IS pool.
Good work SS and Ineedaspot!SlimShafty said:WOW, someone at the IPT really sent that out, 17,066 games?, I don't think so, it's is half of that, thats the total number including both wins and loses, in one game of pool you get 1 winner and 1 loser, but it's still only 1 game of pool the last time I checked
The total number of games after the 2 rounds is 8533.
The break and run % is 21.28% for all breaks, using the total # of all wins and loses would assume 2 breaks per game, thats just completely wrong.
So the break and run% is 21%
Games are at 8533
after round 2
21% sounds about right for the average. And the top level players (say top 30) will probably average around 30-33% over time under these conditions and there may be a few standouts who can approach 40% in the long term.
If they leave this cloth on for the next event it will get a bit harder, but I suspect the players will be working hard on their breaks over the next month after learning how hard it can be on some tables to make a ball.
Also, someone made a good point that the BRO stat in 9-ball would be a few percent higher if players always went for the out rather than play a safety.
I think they've got the conditions about right with the current stats. If this event was played on worsted cloth with 5" pockets we would be seeing 60-80% wet breaks from players and BRO% over 60% from some players I reckon.
I saw Busta make a 6 pack to close the match against Hann today, but other than that I've only seen a few 3 packs and one 4 pack I think. At around 33% BROs, the odds that a good player will make a 4 pack from any given break is about 1 in 80. So we are seeing a 4 pack about once in every 7 matches ( 7 matches is approx 80 frames.) A 5 pack every 21 matches. A six pack every 63 matches. (Actually much less often because packs this size can begin only in the early stages of any given match.
Anyway, this gives some indication of the frequency and sizes of packs being run.
Colin
8-Ball
8 Ball has been around a long time. I play down at the local Senoir Center here in St. Pete Fla aka (Wrinkle City) and all of the guys that I play with are over 55, most are in the 65-75 range, and not one of them plays Straight Pool, they grew up playing 8 Ball, they say Straight Pool was a game "Dad" & "Granpa" played.
These guys came here from different cities, so the rules they grew up with vary.
Here is the Rules they all compromised on:
1. Loser or New incoming player Breaks.
2. If you pocket a Ball and scratch the Ball gets spotted and the other player gets the Cue ball in the Kitchen.
3. If you Break and make a Stripe, you are Stripes, if you make a solid, you are solids, no choice.
4. If you Break and make one or a few of each, then you have your choice.
5. You must at least "Hit" the 8 Ball when you are shooting at it. If you miss it, you lose.
6. Some of the guys will spot the last Ball, even the 8 if it is in the Kitchen and you scratch on your last shot.
7. Slop or not called Carom shots count.
Only one guy likes to play "Ball in hand" he used to play in bar leauges, he also likes a good game of 9 Ball.
The rest of them look like this
When he asks them if they wanna play Ball in Hand.
8 Ball has been around a long time. I play down at the local Senoir Center here in St. Pete Fla aka (Wrinkle City) and all of the guys that I play with are over 55, most are in the 65-75 range, and not one of them plays Straight Pool, they grew up playing 8 Ball, they say Straight Pool was a game "Dad" & "Granpa" played.
These guys came here from different cities, so the rules they grew up with vary.
Here is the Rules they all compromised on:
1. Loser or New incoming player Breaks.
2. If you pocket a Ball and scratch the Ball gets spotted and the other player gets the Cue ball in the Kitchen.
3. If you Break and make a Stripe, you are Stripes, if you make a solid, you are solids, no choice.
4. If you Break and make one or a few of each, then you have your choice.
5. You must at least "Hit" the 8 Ball when you are shooting at it. If you miss it, you lose.
6. Some of the guys will spot the last Ball, even the 8 if it is in the Kitchen and you scratch on your last shot.
7. Slop or not called Carom shots count.
Only one guy likes to play "Ball in hand" he used to play in bar leauges, he also likes a good game of 9 Ball.
The rest of them look like this
When he asks them if they wanna play Ball in Hand.
like Cameron Smith said, to the general public eight ball is NORMAL pool. anything else is some gimicky new game which is ABNORMAL. lol
whether you agre with the IPT choosing eight ball or not, when your average joe thinks this sort of thing you can see why they chose eight ball.
personally i'm glad they've chosen eight ball because I never really saw much of it at a high level before and tended to dismiss it as crap, and it's opened my eyes to the game more. now i like to play eight ball myself sometimes and am getting quite good and knoledgeable about it rather than just playing only with people who dont know pool.
whether you agre with the IPT choosing eight ball or not, when your average joe thinks this sort of thing you can see why they chose eight ball.
personally i'm glad they've chosen eight ball because I never really saw much of it at a high level before and tended to dismiss it as crap, and it's opened my eyes to the game more. now i like to play eight ball myself sometimes and am getting quite good and knoledgeable about it rather than just playing only with people who dont know pool.
PoolSleuth
Banned
cuetechasaurus said:
Your point is valid, but great player, make Great Runs of many racks. I think 9 Ball would reduce the same results.
Remember going to a Baseball Game many years ago, Sandy Kofax (sure I spelled it wrong) was pitching for the LA Dodgers. I came to see Baseball, with Hits, and Runs it was BORING for me. But for Sandy it was one of his No Hitters...
The tiebreaker format encourages players to compile as many B&R's as possible, it may be the difference in a player advancing or not. So maybe players are willing to take a few more chances to get out from the break than normal? I don't know, Colin or Linda or someone who is there will have to weigh in on whether this might be true.
Find out for yourself...
Play "The Ghost" races to 8 (or whatever) in both 8-ball and 9-ball.
Make a good break... take ball in hand anywhere on the table... keep track of your stats....
For me, I can usually "win" in 9-ball... which means %50+ runs when doing it this way... and of course I never play safe when doing this.... and yes, this is so much easier than what is going on in the IPT, but it will give you an idea of which is an easier game to you.
I haven't done it in 8-ball, but I'm going to give it a try at home and see what happens... I expect it the stats to be similar, but I really have no clue.... wouldn't be surprized if it is harder than 9-ball for me.
Chris
Play "The Ghost" races to 8 (or whatever) in both 8-ball and 9-ball.
Make a good break... take ball in hand anywhere on the table... keep track of your stats....
For me, I can usually "win" in 9-ball... which means %50+ runs when doing it this way... and of course I never play safe when doing this.... and yes, this is so much easier than what is going on in the IPT, but it will give you an idea of which is an easier game to you.
I haven't done it in 8-ball, but I'm going to give it a try at home and see what happens... I expect it the stats to be similar, but I really have no clue.... wouldn't be surprized if it is harder than 9-ball for me.
Chris
jingle said:
I don't think people are thinking ahead too much of their BR stats, at least in the early rounds. I know Mike Z. wasn't used to the scoring in the first couple rounds and didn't even record his BR's, and I am sure he wasn't the only one.
When it comes down to making a risky shot to complete a runout (and possibly get in trouble with shape) vs. ducking to win, I think the player is going to weigh the odds of each and take the easier safety. After all, the most important factor is matches won, then games won and the players are just trying to win each and every game, even if it means the loss of the 3rd tiebreaker stat, BR's.
Poolislife said:
Of course these tables break tougher. They must break from the box. Most are used to breaking from the rail.
Fatigue probably comes into play while breaking more than any other shot.
The Phillipinos don't seem to be too tired though. Could it have something to do with preparation?
Of course it isn't real. None of this is real.
You take the blue pill and the story ends. You wake in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes. Remember -- all I am offering is the truth, nothing more.
You take the blue pill and the story ends. You wake in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes. Remember -- all I am offering is the truth, nothing more.
I believe eightball is to nineball what chess is to checkers. They're both good/fun games but one clearly requires more more brain power. It's a distinct differinciation (not stats) that propels eightball closer to the apex as the 'King of Pool' games.
I saw many top nineball champs crumble with poor 'decision making' in the eightball tourney. The reason is simple.... "''the winning edge goes to the smarter player' when all else is equal (as it does in any sport/game).
It may serve to note nineball was invented for television because in general the TV viewer is quickly bored by anything that requires too much thought or time. Maybe the same applies to many of our nineball advocates.
It's about time 'eightball' got it's time in the limelight.
Fred
I saw many top nineball champs crumble with poor 'decision making' in the eightball tourney. The reason is simple.... "''the winning edge goes to the smarter player' when all else is equal (as it does in any sport/game).
It may serve to note nineball was invented for television because in general the TV viewer is quickly bored by anything that requires too much thought or time. Maybe the same applies to many of our nineball advocates.
It's about time 'eightball' got it's time in the limelight.
Fred
If you get fatigued breaking then you have problems, or are a senior citizen.
About 8-ball v 9-ball, chess to checkers??? I just don't get that. Pure 9-ball players, or snooker players for that matter struggle at 8-ball cause the patterns are different, not because they are more complex. You take a pure 8-ball player and make him play a 9-ball tourny and he won't have a clue how to play 9-ball patterns. The more you play any game the easier they become, its pretty simple.
About 8-ball v 9-ball, chess to checkers??? I just don't get that. Pure 9-ball players, or snooker players for that matter struggle at 8-ball cause the patterns are different, not because they are more complex. You take a pure 8-ball player and make him play a 9-ball tourny and he won't have a clue how to play 9-ball patterns. The more you play any game the easier they become, its pretty simple.
In nineball, the route to winning clear.... little to no thought required (just skill). The road to victory is clear to all after the break.
Eightball is clearly different as the route to victory is influenced by creativity in thought and the ability to make the wise choice amoung many options (as in chess).
Eightball is clearly different as the route to victory is influenced by creativity in thought and the ability to make the wise choice amoung many options (as in chess).
your average shot in eight ball is a LOT easier than your average shot in nine ball. you make it sound like the skill of actually potting balls is not a factor in the difficulty of a game. which is wrong surely...
Both great variations of a great game to my mind. Love them both, play them both and both are very definitely 'real' tests of different aspects of the game.
This is a pretty futile argument - there are 8-ball and 9-ball diehards who will fight their corner with their dying breath it seems to me. Currently I'm greatly enjoying a wonderful 8-ball tournament and when the World 9-ball tournament starts, I will be glued to every minute of that too.
This is a pretty futile argument - there are 8-ball and 9-ball diehards who will fight their corner with their dying breath it seems to me. Currently I'm greatly enjoying a wonderful 8-ball tournament and when the World 9-ball tournament starts, I will be glued to every minute of that too.
It would be really cool if the IPT would do a bunch of different games... 8-ball, 9-ball, straight pool, one-pocket...
There could be like a "grand slam" in tennis where to win the grand slam you have to win majors on different playing surfaces, in pool you'd have to win at all the different games.
I realize that this is very unlikely to happen because the "average viewer," whoever that may be, isn't going to want to watch one-pocket or even straight pool. Still it's fun to think about...
There could be like a "grand slam" in tennis where to win the grand slam you have to win majors on different playing surfaces, in pool you'd have to win at all the different games.
I realize that this is very unlikely to happen because the "average viewer," whoever that may be, isn't going to want to watch one-pocket or even straight pool. Still it's fun to think about...
Ummmmm no it wasnt.
Nine ball has been around for a very long time cant quote a year...... but well before television was even invented. It was basically short rack rotation for the last ball instead of points. Was a hustlers game from the earliest of days. Round about the mid-late 70s 9 ball was being played after hours so to speak so much by the top players it was adopted as the new tournament game (14.1 had been on its way out the door for a while). As time passed and matches were being televised, they adopted the 'hit the ball' set of rules (they also used to play one shot shootout rules, similar to a push shot on any ball), with cueball in hand in the kitchen. More years passed, and it became cueball in hand anywhere on the table for fouls. 9 ball in my opinion (and it is my favorite game) has become so bastardized on the pro level, its just not pure anymore. Used to, you had guys like Wimpy, Don Willis, Cornbread, on and on the guys....who would just get up and run over you like a truck..... now its like shooting freethrows at the olympics. Its become less of a natural talent required game, and more .......... I dont know.... its just not the same.
Its like watching Earl vs Corey..... yes Corey can play, and he can win...... but his game is no where near as pretty to watch. Theres no smoothness there like the players of the last era.....
Anyhow, 9ball wasnt invented for TV
Chuck
CaptainHook said:8 Ball has been around a long time. I play down at the local Senoir Center here in St. Pete Fla aka (Wrinkle City) and all of the guys that I play with are over 55, most are in the 65-75 range, and not one of them plays Straight Pool, they grew up playing 8 Ball, they say Straight Pool was a game "Dad" & "Granpa" played.
These guys came here from different cities, so the rules they grew up with vary.
Here is the Rules they all compromised on:
1. Loser or New incoming player Breaks.
2. If you pocket a Ball and scratch the Ball gets spotted and the other player gets the Cue ball in the Kitchen.
3. If you Break and make a Stripe, you are Stripes, if you make a solid, you are solids, no choice.
4. If you Break and make one or a few of each, then you have your choice.
5. You must at least "Hit" the 8 Ball when you are shooting at it. If you miss it, you lose.
6. Some of the guys will spot the last Ball, even the 8 if it is in the Kitchen and you scratch on your last shot.
7. Slop or not called Carom shots count.
Only one guy likes to play "Ball in hand" he used to play in bar leauges, he also likes a good game of 9 Ball.
The rest of them look like this
Is doing away with this rule part of the reason for the high B&Rs?