Is 8 Ball Taking Over?

[zeeder]

Let's say you are playing race to one for $10,000. You can choose the game.

a) You know your opponent is weaker than you.
b) You know your opponent is stronger than you.

In each case, what game do you choose? If you choose 8-ball for a) and 9-ball for b) that shows that you feel 8-ball is more a fair test of skill. Likewise for 9-ball if you answer the other way around.

A lot of it depends on the strength of the players. For instance, if I was playing someone who has a hard time running more than a ball or two at a time I would choose 8-ball since I'm likely to get another chance if I choke and he still has to make balls whereas in 9-ball if you choke on the 9 you will sell out. If the other player is just slightly weaker but can still get out in either game then it doesn't really matter which game you play.

 

[Williebetmore]

while we may see highlight clips and hear a lot of stories of 8-ball games that are breaking luck-out competitions, especially in the end stage of tournaments, I don't think that is the case with 8-ball with the 4.5" pockets on the IPT cloth. At least, what I observed with breaking there, it didn't appear to play as big a role as breaking has done in the 9-ball events I've watched.
Colin

CC
You make an excellent point, and I will defer to your expertise. None of the 8 - ball that I've witnessed has been on slow cloth, and only some of it was on tight pockets. As with most other games, the tougher the equipment the easier it is to identify the superior players.

 

[pete lafond]

Let's say you are playing race to one for $10,000. You can choose the game.

a) You know your opponent is weaker than you.
b) You know your opponent is stronger than you.

In each case, what game do you choose? If you choose 8-ball for a) and 9-ball for b) that shows that you feel 8-ball is more a fair test of skill. Likewise for 9-ball if you answer the other way around.

Weaker opponent 9 ball
Stronger opponent 8 ball maybe

 

[pete lafond]

slow cloth tight pockets differ

We have one or the other in the room I play in but not both.

Our tables in the VIP room are shimmed with 860 felt and I still find that even though I do not play 8 ball that often, I run more racks in 8 ball. The felt on the tables outside our VIP room are very heavily matted felt though regulation pockets. It seems that these heavy felt tables are extremely easy because shots require a good stroke due to slower cloth and I'm less likely to get lazy and 1/2 stoke. Position play changes with the speed of cloth though both have equal advantages and disadvantages to me it seems.

Easy tables for 8 ball and 9 ball are heavy matted felt and difficult for 14.1. Easy tables for 14.1 would be faster cloth. This again is my opinion based on my performance.

 

[Leil gay]

The toughest conditions are tight pockets and slow cloth what game doesn't matter, in the beginning of these IPT events EVERYONE will play well. By the 3-4th day peoplewill have to adjust to the cloth slowing down which will cause more balls hanging up, and more position errors, I think the IPT chose 8- ball because it is the most recognized and easiest to understand, I think14:1 and 1-pocket are truer tests of skill.

 

[bud green]

I hoping that someday the IPT will host a Last Pocket 8-Ball tourney.

When I practice opposite handed, 9-ball is much harder than 8-ball so I'm going with the "8-ball is easier" crowd.

 

[Leil gay]

What I prefer the 1st 4 events would be Banks, 14:1, Rotation, 10-ball and the KOTH decided by 1-pocket believe me that would be a challenge. that doesn't matter because if you want to play its 8-ball and I'm thankful to have the opportunity after 40 years of joy and torture playing this game that's my life.

 

[cuetechasaurus]

Which is easier? To score a 30 run at 3C (nearly impossible for the greatest playes in the world) or score 30 at 14.1(possible for even us ham and eggers)?

This isnt compairing apples to apples.....try and run 30 balls playing straight pool and see how easy it is. I would like to see a TOP player play the 9 ball ghost in a race to 10 and then play the ghost in 8 ball race to 10 and then see which he thinks is easier! Im betting they will like the 9 ball ghost game alot more.....

Southpaw

A top pro with a big break playing the 8-ball ghost, getting ball in hand off of the break, will probably like the 8-ball ghost better than the 9-ball ghost.

So far in the qualifiers, even on the very slow cloth and somewhat tight pockets, there have been ALOT of 3, 4, 5, 6, packs run ALREADY. I think there have been a few 7's and 8's. In a pro 9-ball tournament with winner breaks, you see 4 and 5 packs occasionally, but when someone runs a 7 pack or above, it's usually big news.

Look at it this way- I've seen ball bangers who have no idea where the cueball is going break and run out in 8-ball quite a few times. Sometimes the racks are just ridiculously easy. In 9-ball, it's a rarity for a ballbanger to break and run out. In 8-ball, you can screw up your position and still have another shot. In 9-ball, you can't. There is luck in both games.

I also don't think that 14.1 is the greatest test of skill. I would put one-pocket and 15-ball rotation above 14.1. Efren is the best player in the world, and he doesn't play 14.1.

 

[sjm]

I also don't think that 14.1 is the greatest test of skill. I would put one-pocket and 15-ball rotation above 14.1. Efren is the best player in the world, and he doesn't play 14.1.

Actually, Efren was second in the 1993 US Open Straight Pool event and third in the 2000 US Open Straight Pool event.

I think all rotation games fit in the same category and none of them are as great a test of all around skill as either straight pool or one pocket.

One of several reasons I place all rotation games below straight pool and one pocket is that as defense need only deny opponent a shot on a single ball, it is far simpler to play defense in rotation games than in straight pool and one pocket. In straight pool and one pocket, you must account for every single ball in your defense, placing a greater emphasis on defensive speed control than is found in other games played on the glorious green felt.

Just my opinion, of course.

 

[Colin Colenso]

A top pro with a big break playing the 8-ball ghost, getting ball in hand off of the break, will probably like the 8-ball ghost better than the 9-ball ghost.

So far in the qualifiers, even on the very slow cloth and somewhat tight pockets, there have been ALOT of 3, 4, 5, 6, packs run ALREADY. I think there have been a few 7's and 8's. In a pro 9-ball tournament with winner breaks, you see 4 and 5 packs occasionally, but when someone runs a 7 pack or above, it's usually big news.

Look at it this way- I've seen ball bangers who have no idea where the cueball is going break and run out in 8-ball quite a few times. Sometimes the racks are just ridiculously easy. In 9-ball, it's a rarity for a ballbanger to break and run out. In 8-ball, you can screw up your position and still have another shot. In 9-ball, you can't. There is luck in both games.

I also don't think that 14.1 is the greatest test of skill. I would put one-pocket and 15-ball rotation above 14.1. Efren is the best player in the world, and he doesn't play 14.1.

I think the biggest run in the qualifiers has been the 7-pack by Kevin Becker against Mike Sigel. It's likely a few of those 6-packs that were made in the qualifiers were done on larger pocket tables too.

I don't recall anything bigger than a 4-pack being run at the KOTH (perhaps there was a 5-pack), despite there being over 100 matches played. I'd expect to see more packs run in a 9-ball tourney with that field, with standard tables over that many matches.

But certainly an 8-ball runout is more likely for a player with poor potting and positional skills than a 9-ball runout. (excluding off the break or combos). It's just part of the nature of the game. In some aspects it is easier, in other aspects it can be more challenging.

Colin

 

[DanielM]

David Alcaide ran 8 racks in the last of the tour card qualifiers.

 

[worriedbeef]

your average shot in 9 ball is simply more difficult - that's the key thing. people debate whether it's harder to run out on an open table in 8-ball or 9-ball, but the truth is in 8-ball if u make a slight mistake it rarely costs you.

in 9-ball, you finish just slightly out of line and you either have to play safe, or attempt a now much harder shot with sidespin and all the rest of it.

also with 8-ball, from personal experience, these game enhancing clusters that people go on about, never seem to be there provided the balls are racked tight, and the head ball is hit squarely with good pace. at most there might be a couple of balls which just don't go, but it's usually a pretty easy shot to nudge them out.

don't get me wrong as well, I do respect 8-ball - and tbh i thank the likes of the IPT and others recently playing 8-ball for getting me to give it a chance. I usually play 9-bal and 14.1, and used to find 8-ball boring but now I like to play it a bit.

But I still think 9-ball is the better game for TV, and harder to play.

 

[pete lafond]

I think the biggest run in the qualifiers has been the 7-pack by Kevin Becker against Mike Sigel. It's likely a few of those 6-packs that were made in the qualifiers were done on larger pocket tables too.

I don't recall anything bigger than a 4-pack being run at the KOTH (perhaps there was a 5-pack), despite there being over 100 matches played. I'd expect to see more packs run in a 9-ball tourney with that field, with standard tables over that many matches.

But certainly an 8-ball runout is more likely for a player with poor potting and positional skills than a 9-ball runout. (excluding off the break or combos). It's just part of the nature of the game. In some aspects it is easier, in other aspects it can be more challenging.

Colin

The room I play in hosts one of the Joss events each year and sometimes two, 9 ball. Prior to shimming the pockets there were many 3,4,5 rack runs and sometimes a 6 pack. Since the tables have been shimmed it seems that a 2 and 3 rack run is closer to what we now expect and 6 pack just hasn't occurred yet.

When they start the tournament, due to the need for more tables, most the high runs have always been on the Gandy tables outside the VIP room. These tables have an incredibly thick slow mat with "regulation" pockets (if there is really such a thing).

This room always hosted an amateur 8 ball event also and some amateurs seemed to run 2 and 4 racks on these same tables (VIP room and outside room).

Given all of this, there is more pressure on the pro because their opponent is also a pro so they are less likely to chase shots and play safe as an amateur is likely to chase (not all).


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[pete lafond]

don't get me wrong as well, I do respect 8-ball - and tbh i thank the likes of the IPT and others recently playing 8-ball for getting me to give it a chance. I usually play 9-bal and 14.1, and used to find 8-ball boring but now I like to play it a bit.

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I'm the same, since the IPT I too like watching 8 ball on TV and play it a little more often. Still 14.1 and 9 ball are my primary games.

 

[Williebetmore]

.... it is far simpler to play defense in rotation games than in straight pool and one pocket. .

SJM,
What is this "defense" of which you speak?? Is it some type of new pool game. Perhaps in Peoria you can give me a brief explanation.

 

[Andrew Manning]

8-ball is easier, but...

Everyone keeps mentioning the choice of shots in 8-ball as if every shot in the game were the first shot! On your first shot (after suits have been assigned), you most likely have 6 balls to shoot for. But this number decreases as the run goes on! By the time you're on your second-to-last ball, trying to get good position on your key ball, you have one ball to shoot at, one ball to play position for, and 7 (or possibly fewer but not usually) blocker balls to get around! And if you miss getting on the correct side of your key ball, that means either pull out a great shot to get position on the 8, or most likely hand the game to your opponent on a silver platter.

I think it is more than relevant that in both 8-ball and 9-ball, if you're going to make a mistake, it has to be early in the run for you to recover or to have good safety opitions. However in 9-ball, the run goes from more difficult to less difficult, since you're always playing for position on one ball, but there's less traffic as the run continues. In 8-ball the run generally goes from less difficult to more difficult, since as you pocket balls you have fewer and fewer options for how to complete the run, but your opponent's blockers remain in your way the whole time.

Anyway, in the end I think 8-ball is easier for great players, since re-planning and shotmaking can usually save you unless you really get out of line; whereas in 9-ball you can never re-plan, and shotmaking will only get you so far if you're not in a situation where you can play good position for your next ball.

And for players who have been playing seriously for less than a couple of years, or players who don't play seriously, 8-ball is a better game. All sorts of strategy comes in when you and your opponent can't run out for everywhere like the pros can. Defense becomes huge, and the smarter player can often use intelligent moves to defeat a player with far superior shotmaking and cue ball control who may not be playing as intelligently. Planning is crucial because unless they set up a run with large margins of error and good plan B's, they won't get out. And cluster control and traffic navigation are more crucial than in 9-ball, where position zones are usually larger, albeit possibly harder to get to from your last ball, since you can't use pattern planning to make things easier.

-Andrew

 

[pete lafond]

..Anyway, in the end I think 8-ball is easier for great players, since re-planning and shotmaking can usually save you unless you really get out of line; whereas in 9-ball you can never re-plan, and shotmaking will only get you so far if you're not in a situation where you can play good position for your next ball. ..

Good post Andrew. I think what makes eight ball a little easier too is you can also use your many opponents balls as stops. If you are 14.1 player, 8 ball is much easier.

I still enjoy watching 8 ball though. I'm also glad it's the IPT game selection because many are familiar with this game and can identify with it. 8 ball is the one game among of all sport games most people in North America have played at least once.

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[BillyKoda]

Eight ball is one of my least favorite games but it is the game I seem to play most. I love snooker, bottle pool, golf and some others but no one seems to be interested in them. This is the main reason I am working towards my home pool room, I'll show these guys what they are missing. In the mean time I'll just keep beating them at eight ball. LOL

BK

 

[Cornerman]

I think even world class 9-ballers with little 8-ball knowledge will often join the dots in harder ways than is necessary. It's one thing to see a pheasible route, and another to see the optimal route.

Colin

This is the greatest truth about what we're seeing with the professionals playing 8-ball lately.

IMO, professional 9-ball players could learn the most about 8-ball from amateur 8-ball specialists who must choose the optimal route to get their best chance for a clearance.

Fred

P.S., I'm bumping this thread just to point out the recent 8-ball qualifier on tight equipment, where packages are reported to be delivered by the bundles.

 

[jsp]

P.S., I'm bumping this thread just to point out the recent 8-ball qualifier on tight equipment, where packages are reported to be delivered by the bundles.

Yup Gallego just posted a 9-pack.

Although I do agree there are generally more packs in 8ball than there is in 9ball, I don't think that's proof that 8ball is the easier game. There are more packs simply because it is easier to make a ball on the break, and you have a choice as to what ball to shoot next.

In 9ball, you have to shoot the 1 (or the next least valued ball) after the break, and many runs die because they don't have a clear shot or a very low percentage shot on the 1. If the rules are changed in 9ball such that you have the option to pocket any ball after the break (except the 9 of course), before pocketing the rest in numerical order, i'm sure you'll have strings that exceed strings you'll see in 8ball.

So here are my generalizations on this debate...

* With an open rack, it's easier to run out in 8ball than it is in 9ball.
* With a congested rack, the better player will more likely win that rack in 8ball than in 9ball.
* There are more congested racks in 8ball than in 9ball
* There are more packs run in 8ball than in 9ball mainly because you have a choice for your first shot, not necessarily because the racks are easier to run.
* Luck is more of a factor in 9ball, especially on missed shots.
* Playing a safety is almost always an option in 9ball, but not so for 8ball.

So to sum things up, I still think 9ball is the "easier" game of the two, and when I say "easy" I mean it is more likely the better player will lose a set to the lesser player in 9ball than in 8ball.