Is anything sacred any more?

RocketQ

RocketQ

It's Not Rocket Science
Silver Member
I will probably get abused for asking this question but I have to.
Is anything sacred with cue making any more? Seems to be of recent weeks peoples business, prices, vendors prices etc. have been freely announced and hammered.
I think some if not most of the information that has been flying around should be left to pm's and phone calls if it came down to that. I understand the internet is the information highway but I don't like to explain nor should I have to explain to a customer why I charge what I charge for a cue or materials.
Ask the cue maker should be renamed "Grill the cue maker"
 
John,

I have to agree. However anyone thinks were getting rich building cues can find out the hard way. Once you consider the time invested in building a cue sometime your lucky to make minimum wage. Anyway this is the day and age of the information highway. Nothing remains a secret too long.
 
John, That's another one of the issues with a forum that's completely open to the public.I'm all for being open and honest, but there should be a limit I suppose. Some dealer information should be kept confidential, with pricing being on the top of the list. Many wholesale price lists I have had, say just that on the cover "Confidential". Now, I may be guilty of discussing sources with people, and trying to help others out when I have information that may help them along. I have also ocasionally PMed pricing info to My peers or others such as ourselves that are in the industry, and would do the same for me, I try not to post anyone's secret sources that have been shared with me though, But If I've ever posted wholesale pricing in a open thread by some odd chance, then the only way I could explain that is I must of had a serious brain fart that day. I have noticed what You say though, turned out one of My PM's was a waste because the info ended up out there anyway.

That's small in comparason with everything else that goes on around here now as a result of our open discussions. You got the public coming down on makers, Other makers coming down on each other as if they were a stepping stone to their own success, and just about everything else imaginable.

Most of It seems senseless, and makes no sense at all to a simple minded fellow like me:wink: , but yet just about everything I read could be argued in a different context.

I really miss when things were just a few guys sharing ideas and helping each other out. We have had our disagreements & arguements, but we usually either worked them out quickly in the thread, and let It die, or through PM, It didn't turn into a national incident, with tons of pages of nothing more then a free for all B_tch, moan , cry, & whining fest. I guess This crap was bound to migrate into this section too. It was only a matter of time, and looks like It's here to stay. All that's acomplished from that is the assurance that anyone with any good ideas or experiences will be less likely to post and share. This also hurts an already suffering industry as a whole. Besides that everyone's blood pressure must be through the roof from banging Their head against the door:banghead:. I have enough stress in My real life, not looking for more in My cyber Life. I fought most of My young life, too old for that now, and Soap opera's aren't My thing these days. IMO that stuff should have it's own forum. It would be nice to have a place to come discuss, and relax with friends, cue owners, & peers. :cool: Maybe I've just watched too many Cheers re-runs or maybe I just need a beer for My own tears.:crying::grin-square: Eitherway things have been looking pretty grim on here lately. :outtahere:

Sorry if I'm off topic.
Greg
 
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I don't think there is anything wrong with the consumer knowing what the cost of materials are. When I had a concrete slab poured I knew the per yard price of the concrete. Then the decision is which contractor is going to do the best job for the money.
The same hold true with cues. I'm not buying a piece of Cocobola or Ivory I am buying a completed cue. If I know how much the material costs I can determine what each cue maker is charging for his labor, skill, and experience. A good reputation for skill and craftsmanship is going to command a higher price than someone just starting out. Then you factor in the intangibles like the artisans creativity.
You get what you pay for, and sometimes the fact that quality materials add X to the cost of the cue helps in the decision process.
If you're making $75/hr per cue or $25, or $200 should be known to the customer. If you're worth what you are charging you will sell. If you are underpriced compared to your peers you will sell more. Conversely if your peers are producing a comparable cue for less money then you will sell less.

B
 
B
Don't take this the wrong way. You have learned that there is a cost associated with quality. There are people out there that think the same way. However the majority of the world wants "the world for a buck".
The point I am trying to make and I know I am not conveying to very well is some people value quality work and some people don't. Cue making can't be compared to ANY other industry. The wood is bought and stored for a long time in a climate controlled area. Turned gradually to just above finish size over a long period of time then assembled with various components then turned to finish size over time. From board to cue is a minimum of 3.5 years for me. So how do you put a price on that? Not to mention how to cut the wood from boards to give you more stable blanks.
Concrete you build the forms do the prep work pour and finish in a matter of 2 days for a small job.
With this being said my cost of material is not the cost of making a cue. I could go on and on about this but it would do me no good. John Q does not need to know what my materials cost to make and educated decision on if the buy my cue. All that shows is that I have marked them up exponentially and that is how most people look at it, why should I buy your cue for 500$ when it cost you x dollars to make.
I hope this does not offend you that is not my mission. And if it did I am sorry.
 
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DelaWho??? said:
I don't think there is anything wrong with the consumer knowing what the cost of materials are. When I had a concrete slab poured I knew the per yard price of the concrete. Then the decision is which contractor is going to do the best job for the money.
The same hold true with cues. I'm not buying a piece of Cocobola or Ivory I am buying a completed cue. If I know how much the material costs I can determine what each cue maker is charging for his labor, skill, and experience. A good reputation for skill and craftsmanship is going to command a higher price than someone just starting out. Then you factor in the intangibles like the artisans creativity.
You get what you pay for, and sometimes the fact that quality materials add X to the cost of the cue helps in the decision process.
If you're making $75/hr per cue or $25, or $200 should be known to the customer. If you're worth what you are charging you will sell. If you are underpriced compared to your peers you will sell more. Conversely if your peers are producing a comparable cue for less money then you will sell less.

B
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You hit the nail on the head. I could select the specs of a cue I want built, and ask dozens of cue makers for a quote...and get dozens of prices.
Most seem to think everyone should charge the same price for the same cue. When a cuemakers resume is chalk full of years of goddam experience...I expect to pay a premium to have his name associated with it. I don't find that unreasonable at all.
 
It's not about hiding anything from the customer to Me. If It's a good customer that apprietiates and values Your work, then I could care less if they know what I paid. I charge the same price for the work, and just add the cost difference of material to that, many times the cost added is close to or My actual cost, depends on the job.

If someone haggles on every deal they try to make, then they are going to do so whether They know Your cost or not. Some people are not even aware of It when your giving them a deal in the first place. Does this mean We should overprice Our work like a car dealer to make room for This ritual?

What It's really about is being loyal to Your supplier, and not releasing information that they generally keep out of the public eye. If they wanted everyone to know Their pricing then I'm sure It would be posted for everyone to see.

So see to me It has nothing to do with pulling the wool over anyone's eyes. It's about being loyal to the people that keep our costs down.:smile:
 
thats the nature of life. everyone wants something for nothing. i just made up a shaft for a guy. he was a friend so i did it cheap 100$ and fast and it came out perfect. like everything i make i tested it out. it hit a ton. after he played with it all day long he called me later that night and told me he wasnt happy. he wanted an ivory ferrule and red pad not black and 12mm:eek: . none of which was mentioned at the time. meanwhile the entire 10 days i had his cue he called me non stop and 10 different ppl told me he was talking about me having his cue too long. 10 dayyyyyyys.

finally fed up i called him back and said i will refund your money and give me back the shaft. no more favors. then i said do you really think you were getting a 12mm 30'' shaft with an ivory ferrule and moori tip for 100$. call anyome and they will have your cue god knows how long and will charge you 250$.

none of these specs were mentioned when he gave me the cue. which BTW WAS A 1ST EDITION predator. the second he said 12mm i would have giggled and said no thanks cant help ya

sry for venting.....
 
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dave sutton said:
none of these specs were mentioned when he gave me the cue. which BTW WAS A 1ST EDITION predator. the second he said 12mm i would have giggled and said no thanks cant help ya
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Dave ... why not a 12mm tip diameter?

BTW ... the fella you are talking about obviously dont know a good deal or a friend doing him a favor when it slaps him in the face.
Ya run into one like that every so often.
I do my share of ProBono or 'reduced price as a favor to a guy on hard times' and most of the time it is recognized and appreciated.

Look at it this way ... you only half to deal with him for a short time.
He has to live with himself every day.
 
RocketQ said:
I will probably get abused for asking this question but I have to.
Is anything sacred with cue making any more? Seems to be of recent weeks peoples business, prices, vendors prices etc. have been freely announced and hammered.
I think some if not most of the information that has been flying around should be left to pm's and phone calls if it came down to that. I understand the internet is the information highway but I don't like to explain nor should I have to explain to a customer why I charge what I charge for a cue or materials.
Ask the cue maker should be renamed "Grill the cue maker"
Click to expand...
Let me just say first and foremost, that I agree wholeheartedly with you. Very few industries are so open that the consumer can see what the cost of materials are. I cringe every time I see it on here.

Although the cost of parts has little do with the final product, I still think consumers knowing the cost of the components, adds to the confusion. Knowing the cost of the canvas, paint, brushes, etc., does not give you a feel for what the painting should cost in the art world.

Gene
 
Exactly

Cuedog said:
Let me just say first and foremost, that I agree wholeheartedly with you. Very few industries are so open that the consumer can see what the cost of materials are. I cringe every time I see it on here.

Although the cost of parts has little do with the final product, I still think consumers knowing the cost of the components, adds to the confusion. Knowing the cost of the canvas, paint, brushes, etc., does not give you a feel for what the painting should cost in the art world.

Gene
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Guys I buy alot of cues and I commission several.

I AINT BUYING MATERIALS, I am buy labor. Ouch if that hurts, but it is the truth I am buying labor.

I am like the guy standing in the sistine chapel yelling up at Michelangelo, "WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO GET THAT DAMNED CEILING PAINTED?"

Thanks for all you do,

Ken
 
What ever happened to the customer working within their budget, with regards to cue orders?!

The way I have approached ordering a cue is this....first, I do my homework, with regards to wood combinations and joint types desired. Then I do my homework on a desired maker(s)...with regards to styling, construction techniques, and general reputation. Then, from there, I generally come up with a design in mind. I then confer with the maker as what it would cost to achieve the desired cue. If it's a bit more than I can or am willing to spend, then I will make adjustments to my original concept, to get me in to a cost that is comfortable for me. I would never dream of asking the maker to craft my original concept at a bargain price! If it is simply beyond my means to achieve the cue I wish for a price point I can afford...then I have to accept that fact, and move on.

Another thing I do not like are those....'Taking Bids on Building Me This Cue' type of threads. These type of threads just scream 'build me this cue for the lowest price possible'. The poster obviously does not care anything about the hit or playability or even materials quality...they just want a specific cue at the cheapest price possible, and publicly dangle the carrot to watch the makers climb over each other for the business. Screw that!! Decide which makers here you would consider a cue from, and contact them privately with regards to pricing and other details.

When a maker and customer enter into a 'relationship' with regards to having a cue crafted, all the info exchanged between the two, especially with regards to pricing, should be held in confidence. If a maker wants to publicly post their pricing schedule, then that's all good....but any price quotes given in private, should remain just that, private.


Purchasing a custom cue should not be really too much different than purchasing a car. You pick the make and model that you would like with certain options or upgrades. If the price is more than you wish to spend, then you decide what options you can live without. If you are getting down to a basic bare-bones model, and it is still a little out of your reach....then it is time to step back and realize that perhaps it's time to rethink the make and model that would best suit your budget. You certainly do not tell the salesman....'well, I know that these tires cost $xxx, and the seat coverings are worth $xxxx, and the spark plugs only cost $xxx at the local Schuck's or Pep Boys.' I mean, REALLY?!!



I feel badly that the 'Ask the Cuemaker' section has taken the turn that it has as of late. I have always found this section extremely informative. As a non-maker, I always felt a little like I had a special 'pass' to enter into the 'club house', on a limited basis, of course. I find it a bit disheartening that the makers here are beginning to feel used and abused...and that the respect for what it is that these guys do seems to be disappearing. :sorry:

Lisa
 
I have a friend that I've done alot of favors for, including rebuilding his cue that he snapped in half awhile back, and he just asked me to build a breaker just like the one I just built myself, purpleheart shaft/forearm, and ebony handle. He asked how much, and I asked him, how much are you looking to spend, just to get an idea of how serious he was. He responded with" about $100, not much more". I advised him to go to the store and pick up a 'players' cue. The general public is so used to buying $100 sticks now that, atleast around my area, they don't want to spend the money for a good quality stick. I've even had people balk at $25 for a new tip / ferrule, and shaft cleaning/ding and gouge removal/polishing, hand delivered to their pool league match. I have another person that bought his own Moori tips to do himself, then realized he can't do it. He had someone else do the install for a beer or two, and the tip turned out to be defective, and he wanted the guy to replace it out of his own pocket, even though the guy didn't sell him the tip. He asked me to do the same trade, and I respectfully declined. BHQ has a thread about stuff like this, and I agree with him, the day they let me set the price for their work, is the day I let them set mine. I don't think it has a thing to do with the economy, it has everything to do with people being cheap, and feeling like they did us a favor instead of the otherway around. Them knowing the costs of materials further fuels their feeling of barganing power, and superiority over the maker, IMO. Even some of the people on here that have been long time members have come out lately with the statements about how cheap the cues should be sold if all the parts/blanks wasn't 100% made in shop by only that person. What makes them qualified to dictate prices, etc?
It really isn't something new, but it seems to be hitting this industry finally, as more info has hit the internet. I have had people ask me to recover their table with cloth they bought at a fabric store, or online from ebay, sorry no can do. and in my full time job, have customers call for a price on a projector install, then say, 'I can get a unit cheaper online, can you install that one for less?' No I can't, is the response. Unfortunatly I think it'll only get worst, before it gets any better.
Dave
 
In my opinion....I don't care what the cost of materials are. They are what they are....if the cuemaker works hard enough to find the right deal on materials and get their cost down, then great!

I am friends with several cuemakers. I know what materials cost and I know some great places to get some of the materials. However, if I want a cue built, I ask whatever cuemaker I'm interested in asking. I then see how much it would take to build that cue. Does it cost them that, no, but I am paying for their knowledge, expertise, their time, and the fact that they are building it specifically for me.
 
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People knowing the cost of materials shouldn't bother a craftsman. It hurts a retailer/merchant for sure though. The way people buy things has changed significantly with the internet being used by more and more people. Adapt or perish.
 
There are a lot of people out there that want something for nothing, just as there are seller?s who expect great returns on very little. What?s the answer, I?m not really sure. If two parties agree then I guess it is fair game.

CM?s always have the same complaint that isn?t any different from everyone else. Over worked, under payed, and not appreciated. If you were to break down leaders with good paying jobs, to an hourly ratio then they too would be only making minim wage. It?s not uncommon for my wife to work 70-90 hours a week. She never complains (although I do) and loves doing it. This is the expected norm for fluential peopling having multi million dollar working budgets.

I don?t think that customers should know what materials cost. This invites skepticism on the behalf of the customer. Instead CM?s should invent special codes like. Cocobolo points?.Price?..B28k3. Now this code represents a price only known to CM?s only. When a customers ask what this is, you reply with, industry coding for pricing, or something like that, and thats it. By doing something like this CM?s will becoming together to create a professional unified body. This is how you become respected. The problem is : when push comes to shove the all mighty dollar always wins.

I know I have said a lot of things that tick CRM?s off but I have also seen a lot of inconsistencies with a lot of makers. Everyone needs to make a living for themselves and everyone knows what they can live with. If at the end of your day you feel like you have dealt fairly with people then you have had a successful day. If on the other hand, your are wondering if that less then perfect butt cap will stay on to a customer whom you just made an outstanding profit on?Well?Then you may want to reconsider.

If I were a customer purchasing a custom cue it would be because of these reasons. I could meet the builder and begin a personal relationship with. 2. One of a kind cue to roughly my specks. Price wouldn?t be an issue so long as it was within my budget and agreed upon before construction. No coming back latter and stating an extra $100 because it took me longer than I had expected. Stay consistent, be honest and professional, and all will fall into place.
 
Sheldon said:
People knowing the cost of materials shouldn't bother a craftsman. It hurts a retailer/merchant for sure though. The way people buy things has changed significantly with the internet being used by more and more people. Adapt or perish.
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Sheldon, I totally agree.

Once someone said the definition of poverty is not having a choice.

If there's only one place to buy a cue, even if they have many cues, that's poor in a sense. However if there are three or four dealers in an area, some meaningful competition can get started.

With eBay and online purchases, the buyer's power has increased, and that's a good thing, in my estimation.

Those cuemakers who produce quality work at a price that's reasonable to their clientele will do alright. Of course, they should also be skillful in their business dealings, which includes good customer service, for people do have a choice where they spend their money.

Once someone knows what they want in a cue and realize it may cost them a bit more, if they really want it, they'll likely find a way to obtain it, so long as the price isn't prohibitive.

Flex
 
retail

Sheldon said:
People knowing the cost of materials shouldn't bother a craftsman. It hurts a retailer/merchant for sure though. The way people buy things has changed significantly with the internet being used by more and more people. Adapt or perish.
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Sheldon,
Right now I am dealing with a vendor that will not sell to a player. You must be a cue maker or repairman and have the credentials to back it up. Too many bad things start to happen when profit margins on supplies / materials get deminished. What ultimately it does is drive the little guy out of business. I know this in my day job. The guys with the deepest pockets win. Once again all hail the almighty buck or fraction of it.
IMO if retailers or vendors wanted to regain their profits and help out our industry make the people buying the materials come up with proof that they are not some Joe Shmow off the street. At the same time makers have to do the same. This is not somethig that would happen over night but like my dad said "All good things take time"...
 
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