Is Elbow Drop after Tip Contact a Bad Thing?

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
And you think that you have a "stroke" !!!!

Nobody is perfect !!!!!!!

That's the extent of your point? That nobody is perfect? That doesn't even make any sense at all. As to the pros, most use a pendulum stroke on a lot of shots up until impact. Then they drop their elbow.
 

ps611846

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Allison Fisher has a pendulum stroke afaik.

Yes, she has. But she is not in my list of top pros. :D

You know what "names" I'm talking about....

Efren, Francisco, Earl..... In their prime of course...... The best players - shot makers ever.
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
Since you are back to name calling and insults. And offer nothing of any real value to any actual thinking person, you can stick it where the sun don't shine, and feel free to use any stroke you want to, just make sure you extend the follow through. You are back on ignore.

Thanks so much. I would consider it a blessing if you never referred to me ever again & never 'misquoted' or mis-paraphrase me & never put words in my mouth that I did not say... ever again.

That way I will not have to continually to make corrective post where you are concerned.

I Sincerely Hope that you can accomplish that.

Best Wishes to you & you will remain in my prayers where your health is concerned & regarding other matters too.
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
Allison Fisher has a pendulum stroke afaik.

I am not sure...

but I think someone has said that Allison has said no elbow drop for snooker but an elbow drop for pool is 'appropriate'.

That is 2nd to 3rd. hand so it could be totally incorrect or...

it could be true.
 

ps611846

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Lots of pros do. If you don't think so, you don't know what a pendulum stroke is (not you, Joey). It's simply not dropping your elbow before contact with the CB.

pj
chgo

Is it also using your fingers - wrist turning - shoulder on most shots to control the cue ball and play shape like the top pros ?

Of course not. It's for sticking to ccb and play center ball shots with the same speed like you are a noob.

Oh, I forgot..... You must stick to ccb..... And follow through.... Sidespin is evil.........
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
For those interested, I just did a careful and detailed analysis of how the tip moves during a pure pendulum stroke. Here it is:

TP B.18 - Pendulum Stroke Cue Tip Trajectory

Check out the trajectory plots and calculations starting at the bottom of the 2nd page. The tip trajectory into the CB and during the initial follow through after the CB separates from the tip is extremely straight. The vertical motion of the tip over the 4 inches closest to the CB (2 inches on either side) is about a hundredth of an inch (about 1/3 of a mm)!!!

The equations derived can also be used to check any combinations of forearm length, bridge length and grip-bridge separation distance.

Check it out,
Dave
The model, like the one PJ posted, has the cue level & not angled as would most often be the case
The cue can be at any angle. As long as the forearm is perpendicular to the cue at address, and the tip is fairly close to the CB at address, the tip will hit the CB extremely close to the desired contact point, and move in a very straight line before and after contact, with the motion being in the direction the cue is pointing (elevated or not).

& it too has a single pivot point for the hand & with no wrist & that too is not usually the case in reality.
The point of the analysis was to show that the motion of the tip is very straight with a pure pendulum stroke. The results clearly show this. Obviously, if one bends or flexes the wrist, or changes grip pressure, or manipulates the cue with the fingers, or moves the body, or chicken-wings the elbow, or swoops, or does anything else other than a pure pendulum stroke, the results would change (the tip contact point won't be as accurate, and the tip motion won't be as straight); but as others have pointed out, these things can affect the straightness of any stroke.

I think the model predicts is a very accurate representation of cue tip motion for someone who executes a fixed-upper-arm pendulum stroke well, with a quiet wrist and a relaxed grip (which usually pivots mostly on a singe finger, often the index or middle finger).

After reading all of the replies after my post, it seems that many people are missing the whole point of the analysis.

The point of the analysis was to show that the tip motion into and beyond the tip contact point is extremely straight with a pure pendulum stroke into the ball. It seems that many people have doubted this fact in past and recent threads on this topic. I hope the plots and numbers in the analysis help some people who might have this misconception.

Regards,
Dave
 
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ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
Many say that those pros that drop their elbow only do it after contact.

They should NOT & really can NOT say that definitively without some extensive study.

Almost all video is NOT capable of showing definitively when one's elbow starts to drop... just before, at, during, or after initial contact. The point is that they do it & there are reasons.

Otherwise, I think it reasonable to conclude that they would have 'gravitated'... evolved... to a different finish or would have maintained 'instruction' to use a different finish.

Everyone should make their own determinations as what the facts of the matters are.

Best Wishes to ALL.

Many say they are using a 'pendulum' stroke when in fact at the very least they are using a Piston J Stroke.
 
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ps611846

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In case we needed more evidence that you don't know what a pendulum stroke is...

pj
chgo

Ok, I know you wish you had Efren's or Django's or Earl's stroke.....

Maybe in another life...... For now, stick to your pendulum and your ld shaft..... If you ever play.....

PS: four replies and no names !!!! You are good !!!!!!
 

pdcue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
New flash for you- I know that. That is why I made the posts earlier that I did, you know, the ones you didn't bother to read. And, just to help you keep up, my pendulum posts were in response to another talking about it. Threads do sidetrack, you know.

I'll never be subtle again. It's HIjack, not sidetrack - you are one of the worst offenders.

Dale(Captain of the On Topic Police)
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'll never be subtle again. It's HIjack, not sidetrack - you are one of the worst offenders.

Dale(Captain of the On Topic Police)

Before you go making yourself some kind of police or authority, maybe you first should get some reading comprehension classes so you know what you are talking about. Otherwise, you are just trolling trying to make someone else look like the offender just because you don't like what they have to say. And you end up looking like a fool.

In post #3, Masayoshi talked about not dropping the elbow at all. (not pendulum any part of the way, not just after the hit)
In post #4, Dr. Dave linked to articles about the pendulum stroke.
In post #7, Masayoshi elaborated on a pinned elbow.
In post #11, Rick explained why he thinks a full pendulum stroke is so bad.
Post #21 was my first post in this thread. Which was pointing out some of the inaccuracies made.

This whole thread is about the pendulum stroke, so for you to say I took it off topic, is beyond absurd. Police yourself. In post #29, you made your agenda clear, when you stated that the whole subject of a pendulum stroke is pure hogwash. And, now you make it clear that you want to also go after those that think it is a good way to play. First you went after Dr. Dave, now me. You aren't policing anything, just on a troll roll.
 

DTL

SP 219
Silver Member
.............
 

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ps611846

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well, 'short' is a relative word. I'm 5'7" and I'm considered tall. LOL

First, just to be clear, I don't like the term 'pendulum stroke' so I will use 'rigid upper arm stroke'. IMO, neither perfectly describes the actual stroke but I think mine comes a little closer --- just to let you know what I mean when I use that term.

If you're going to use the rigid upper arm stroke for any given shot, then I think you should consider fully committing to it from beginning to end. That includes the finishing position of the tip on a downward angle. Using that stroke and then dropping your shoulder to avoid the downward finish can cause some problems. It can result in two separate strokes. It may not feel like two strokes but I've seen it happen where the player hits the ball and there is the slightest of pauses followed by shoulder drop and a level follow through. After all, you are changing from one muscle group to another.

The problem with that is that the main stroke has already ended with an abbreviated follow through. I have found that an abbreviated follow-through is an indication of a poorly-timed stroke. So then you would be getting into issues with your stroke timing.

Also, your planned shoulder drop can begin unintentionally before or right at contact, changing the place the tip hits the ball, which wouldn't be a good thing.

If you're going to drop your shoulder, you should do it in a continuous motion with intent --- or as they call it here --- the piston stroke.

(A very slight shoulder drop after impact is not what we're discussing here. I'm talking about shoulder drop with intent to keep the cue level after impact.)

I use both strokes, mostly the rigid upper arm stroke, but I also drop my shoulder when I feel it warrants it.

The best post I've ever read in this forum.
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The best post I've ever read in this forum.

Very interesting... just because Fran says it, it's the best post ever. I guess you failed to notice that she stated that she usually uses a pendulum stroke. You know, the one a few posts back you said was for beginners. Who is the only other person that would say that on here? Gee, couldn't be Rick, could it?
 

ps611846

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Your first paragraph is correct. We pull the cue back using the triceps (elbow extends), then pause (some longer than others), and then push the cue forward using the biceps (elbow flexes). There are variations of this (straight back/straight through vs pure pendulum vs the loopy, almost windup-like motions you see with S. Frost/Busty) but basically this is the ONLY way to execute a standard pool stroke.......one can add some extra uumph using the wrist and some use the elbow drop (provided by shoulder flexion).

Since they are situated opposite from one another in the upper arm, when the biceps contract, the triceps relax and vice versa. This is called opposing muscles, both cannot contract simultaneously and still have movement of the forearm: one must relax for the other to contract.

In regards to your second paragraph, we can use the biceps for a pulling activity.....like when doing a pull up. And we can use the triceps for pushing.....like when pushing someone away from yourself. But for the pool stroke, the triceps pull and the biceps push.

Hunter Lombardo uses a pendulum stroke.....although the shot below is a soft shot, he does this on all shots except maybe a power draw.
http://www.tubechop.com/watch/7222414

Darren Appleton uses a pendulum stroke.
http://www.tubechop.com/watch/7222960

Alex Pagulayan uses a pendulum stroke.
http://www.tubechop.com/watch/7230899

Chris Melling uses a pendulum stroke. He takes some of the arc out of the back swing by pulling the cue more straight back which causes a slight elbow drop at the end of the back swing.
http://www.tubechop.com/watch/7230923

Niels Feijen has a pendulum stroke......no video needed.

The quality of players coming out these days just keep getting better and better. The winning play is trending toward the player with the best fundamentals. Soon, players like Busty/Efren/Frost with their loopy/loosey goosey strokes, will be a thing of the past. In 20 years if you don't have a laser-like straight stroke with rock solid, near text book fundamentals (see snooker players below), you'll have no shot at winning major tournaments.

Snooker players:

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/7223965

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/7224189

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/7224242

Below is S. Frost. Notice on this quick front on shot the up/down motions of his grip hand/elbow..........this is all provided by flexion/extension of a fixed shoulder (the shoulder and head are stationary, the movement is from rotation of the head of the humerus in the joint space).

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/7232339

Busty is similar but with a lot of added wrist action. Notice the up/down elbow during the stroke.....disappears on the last stroke.

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/7232479


DTL

Hello DTL,

Thanks for your reply and the links. After watching, I agree that some players use it. At least on some shots.

What I wanted to say is what Fran described in her post. And has to do with the "shoulder drop". And that's what people call "elbow drop" most of the times.

For me, this is the type of stroke one must learn to play the game. And it requires a lot of work in your stance, grip, bridge placement to make it work and with correct timing. Because your forearm is not perpendicular when the tip is at the cue ball, but when it's between the bridge hand and the cue ball. It's really tough. But if you learn how to play like that, the stroke becomes so smooth and effortless. You can do anything with great speed control.

In my opinion, this pendulum thing creates a lot of tension and it's a very restricted movement. And I think it uses the wrong muscles to move the cue.
 
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