Is "Feel" Essential for Successful Aiming?

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I think feel is more important to pocketing the ball rather than aiming the ball. In certain conditions the cloth definitely feels different and the balls roll differently. Foggy or high humidity are known to have dramatic effects on table cloth and ball pocketing. While dry conditions and low humidity make the pockets accept balls easier...
These variables change where you need to aim the CB, maybe more than how you need to hit it. Both are essential to pocketing it.

pj
chgo
 

Quesports

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
These variables change where you need to aim the CB, maybe more than how you need to hit it. Both are essential to pocketing it.

pj
chgo
Funny though how you can aim perfectly but if you hit the ball hard it spits out of the pocket. Diamonds are famous for that..
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Funny though how you can aim perfectly but if you hit the ball hard it spits out of the pocket. Diamonds are famous for that..

Center hole takes em pretty well at any speed. Catch a facing too hard though and the ball will rattle up or come out often.
 

Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
I've always maintained that there are too many different cut angles* needed in pool for any usable aiming system to possibly "define" all of them so precisely that any shot can be made by following the system's instructions to the letter, without the need to recognize the final aim solution through "practiced estimation" ("feel").

That doesn't mean that aiming systems don't "work" - just that they only define "landmarks" to get you close, and you have to do the final fine tuning by "recognizing it when you see it".

What do you think?

pj
chgo

*Here's a drawing illustrating what I mean by "too many different cut angles" - it shows that, for a spot shot into a 4 1/2" corner pocket (with 2 1/4 inches of "pocket slop"), a minimum of 25 unique cut angle solutions per cut direction (left or right) are needed in order to be able to make the shot from any CB position. With the OB closer to the pocket fewer cut angles are needed, and with it farther away more are needed (up to 50 or more for long shots).

P.S. To avoid conflict, I hope we can keep this theoretical and not try to compare specific systems.

View attachment 666197
It's All about feel and speed of hit, combined with table conditions, humidity, dirt, cue ball weight and many other factors.
It All plays into the shot cueing & shot choice, along with amount of swing needed to get from A to B.
When cutting a ball and the cue ball cueing releases, is ALL feel of the cut shot, and why pros look like they should scratch, but don't.
Like Grady said yrs ago, yah gotta hit about 2 million balls to get the ''feel''.
 

Quesports

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Center hole takes em pretty well at any speed. Catch a facing too hard though and the ball will rattle up or come out often.
Oh yeah center is all good. But when your close to the long rail and have to hit a cushion first it can rattle in the mouth of the pocket at speed. Then your giving up the table..
 

CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my hero's
Silver Member
Might think about Feel, being force to guide you.


1666139699501.jpeg
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Feel is also, maybe more, about recognizing the correct aim line because you've hit it many times before with similar stroke and conditions.

pj
chgo

Exactly....you see the shot and your subconscious automatically brings up whatever known aiming info you have for that shot into the working area of the mind. Then your conscious thought (the manager of the working area) decides whether or not the subconscious info matches what you're seeing.

This isn't something that we have complete control over. It's the dance that occurs between conscious and subconscious thoughts, and we experience it as a feeling - it either feels right or it doesn't, based on our experience.
 
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bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I think the various definitions of feel is what makes the discussions and the various points the people are making
 

Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
Exactly....you see the shot and your subconscious automatically brings up whatever known aiming info you have for that shot into the working area of the mind. Then your conscious thought (the manager of the working area) decides whether or not the subconscious info matches what you're seeing.

This isn't something that we have complete control over. It's the dance that occurs between conscious and subconscious thoughts, and we experience it as a feeling - it either feels right or it doesn't, based on our experience.
I call ''the dance'' Your waggle (golf term) of the body/mind from each shot outcome.
How you choose to APPROACH the shot.... settlin' into the shot.... creates this statement When ''your down your done''.
This commitment and its & its outcome (results) are the ''tell'' and steer your entire body movement for all shots, some simply call it feel or zone.

I'll probably come back to this posts #50 a few more times to edit :).

Players only get better from mistakes, errors, NEVER do they improve by complaining about each mistake.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Regarding the OP, there is both feel and mechanics involved when one wants to improve aim.

Key example: A lot of students aim slightly off then swerve the cue to adjust, subconsciously.

They have to feel a straight stroke and commit, even if they think aim is off, then judge the hit for thick or thin and go again after a miss. This trains the mind and body to aim and stroke on better lines.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
I've always maintained that there are too many different cut angles* needed in pool for any usable aiming system to possibly "define" all of them so precisely that any shot can be made by following the system's instructions to the letter, without the need to recognize the final aim solution through "practiced estimation" ("feel").

That doesn't mean that aiming systems don't "work" - just that they only define "landmarks" to get you close, and you have to do the final fine tuning by "recognizing it when you see it".

What do you think?

pj
chgo

*Here's a drawing illustrating what I mean by "too many different cut angles" - it shows that, for a spot shot into a 4 1/2" corner pocket (with 2 1/4 inches of "pocket slop"), a minimum of 25 unique cut angle solutions per cut direction (left or right) are needed in order to be able to make the shot from any CB position. With the OB closer to the pocket fewer cut angles are needed, and with it farther away more are needed (up to 50 or more for long shots).

P.S. To avoid conflict, I hope we can keep this theoretical and not try to compare specific systems.

View attachment 666197
I think that aiming systems that work do not require feel. I have shown many people an aiming system who were missing badly and watched them start pocketing balls cleanly that they were missing often not 30 minutes prior. I have taught aiming systems to non-players and watched them pocket balls years above their "pay grade". Using CTE have made ridiculous shots, one, two, and three rail shots, where there was no chance that I was just "seeing it".

My experience with aiming systems is that they are objective and accurate and any "feel" involved is very very subconscious. In my experience the aiming using an aiming system is a very conscious and deliberate set of steps that leads the body from the eyes to the actual (as in no guessing) shot line. I tried to explain this to you more than 10 years ago and you had the video deleted from YouTube because I gave you the attribution for the video.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
... using an aiming system is a very conscious and deliberate set of steps that leads the body from the eyes to the actual (as in no guessing) shot line.
I'm sure believing that is a comfort... that actually helps subconscious aiming.

pj
chgo
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
I think that aiming systems that work do not require feel. I have shown many people an aiming system who were missing badly and watched them start pocketing balls cleanly that they were missing often not 30 minutes prior. I have taught aiming systems to non-players and watched them pocket balls years above their "pay grade". Using CTE have made ridiculous shots, one, two, and three rail shots, where there was no chance that I was just "seeing it".

My experience with aiming systems is that they are objective and accurate and any "feel" involved is very very subconscious. In my experience the aiming using an aiming system is a very conscious and deliberate set of steps that leads the body from the eyes to the actual (as in no guessing) shot line. I tried to explain this to you more than 10 years ago and you had the video deleted from YouTube because I gave you the attribution for the video.

I think it's really all about how "feel" is defined in the first place.

When you look at a shot and decide (based on your experience) that a 15 inside perception will work. There is no feel involved. It's a simple visual awareness based on your knowledge of using the system. Just like if I see an ob sitting in the middle of the table and the cb is lined up to shoot the ob straight to the center diamond on the end rail. I automatically recognize this as a halfball shot to either corner pocket. No feel or guesswork involved.

However, as I step into that halfball aim and bend down to address the cb, my conscious mind has to ensure thay my body and stroke mechanics are actually aligned for the shot. I can still see the aim line from cb address, but I can't see my body, my grip hand or elbow or stance or stroke. That is something I feel, which is a mix of subconscious muscle memory and conscious effort.

That is feel, the type of feel that applies to all aiming methods. When you use that 15 inside, the actual process of allowing the "body to follow the eyes" is that type of feel. You don't see how your body is aligned or how your stroke is aligned...you feel it, based on muscle memory and the conscious awareness/knowledge of the visuals you're looking at.
 

Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
I think it's really all about how "feel" is defined in the first place.

When you look at a shot and decide (based on your experience) that a 15 inside perception will work. There is no feel involved. It's a simple visual awareness based on your knowledge of using the system. Just like if I see an ob sitting in the middle of the table and the cb is lined up to shoot the ob straight to the center diamond on the end rail. I automatically recognize this as a halfball shot to either corner pocket. No feel or guesswork involved. ???????

However, as I step into that halfball aim and bend down to address the cb, my conscious mind has to ensure thay my body and stroke mechanics are actually aligned for the shot. I can still see the aim line from cb address, but I can't see my body, my grip hand or elbow or stance or stroke. That is something I feel, which is a mix of subconscious muscle memory and conscious effort.

That is feel, the type of feel that applies to all aiming methods. When you use that 15 inside, the actual process of allowing the "body to follow the eyes" is that type of feel. You don't see how your body is aligned or how your stroke is aligned...you feel it, based on muscle memory and the conscious awareness/knowledge of the visuals you're looking at.
The system, that statement, does it mean your set/baseline of shot/body mechanics? If so that's a must, but to some who are still learning how to play this game, it's a statement that can/will need a simple explanation to help.

No feel, humm I totally disagree, why because as conditions change the shot Changes, and your feel for the shot MUST/Does change.
As the play conditions change ''all shots change'' a little.
As humidity increases or decreases, shots change.
If you took your ball set during play and put em in a ball washer, the conditions change.
If you choose to introduce another brand of cue ball, shots change, NOT the system, the shot.
Your walk up, body mechanics and being in balance should never change "the system'', but your aiming/walk up MUST change and evolve during play.
If the conditions don't change then yes, all shots are the same if the system is consistent.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
The system, that statement, does it mean your set/baseline of shot/body mechanics? If so that's a must, but to some who are still learning how to play this game, it's a statement that can/will need a simple explanation to help.

No feel, humm I totally disagree, why because as conditions change the shot Changes, and your feel for the shot MUST/Does change.
As the play conditions change ''all shots change'' a little.
As humidity increases or decreases, shots change.
If you took your ball set during play and put em in a ball washer, the conditions change.
If you choose to introduce another brand of cue ball, shots change, NOT the system, the shot.
Your walk up, body mechanics and being in balance should never change "the system'', but your aiming/walk up MUST change and evolve during play.
If the conditions don't change then yes, all shots are the same if the system is consistent.

I was simply talking about being able to recognize a particular shot without using guesswork or estimations, like when a CTE user knows when a shot requires a 15 inside or 15 outside, based on thier experience with using that system, or like when I automatically recognize a halfball shot based on the cb-ob relationship and my knowledge of Poolology. There is no feel or estimations or guesswork involved. You see the shot and immediately know how to aim it (under normal conditions, of course, which is probably 99% of the time). Dirty balls or over-waxed balls would definitely make a difference in the aim, but that's normally not an issue.

Anyhow, that part of aiming, the automatic visual recognition of how to aim the shot does not require feel. But stepping into the shot and getting your body and stroke aligned for that known aim does require feel, because we can't see our body alignment - we can only feel it. That's all I was saying.

I can tell you exactly where to aim a certain shot based on math - no feel. But I can't magically help you align your body to the shot. That requires you to be able to feel whether or not you are aligned properly with what you're seeing.
 
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Zerksies

Well-known member
Most of these "popular" aiming systems only account for center ball axis.

The minute you start adding rotations to the Cue ball you are bringing the element of "Feel" into the shot. I'm now talking rotational spin on the CB not where you are actually hitting on the CB. You can hit the CB in the same spot at different speeds and now you have rotational differences. We all know that if you hit the CB soft and put a ton of rotation on the ball and it hits the OB you can throw the ball into a pocket.

I've never seen an aiming method to "throw" a cue ball into the pocket. You spin it to hard you're off, to soft you're off.

On a personal note. I prefer to hit the Cue ball with as much Center Axis as possible. Side spin is a necessary evil.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Most of these "popular" aiming systems only account for center ball axis.

The minute you start adding rotations to the Cue ball you are bringing the element of "Feel" into the shot. I'm now talking rotational spin on the CB not where you are actually hitting on the CB. You can hit the CB in the same spot at different speeds and now you have rotational differences. We all know that if you hit the CB soft and put a ton of rotation on the ball and it hits the OB you can throw the ball into a pocket.

I've never seen an aiming method to "throw" a cue ball into the pocket. You spin it to hard you're off, to soft you're off.

On a personal note. I prefer to hit the Cue ball with as much Center Axis as possible. Side spin is a necessary evil.

Good point. Aiming systems provide solid references (the good systems anyway) for a vertical axis hit on the cb. An experienced feel must then be developed for varying amounts of spin and speed. But this feel can be developed and built from the known aiming references provided by whatever system you're familiar with.
 
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Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
I would Amazed if, Earl, Alex, Orcullo and thee alike use Any kind of system or ever did.

A baseline of thinking and approach/balance/swing Maybe, but the land of ''hard knocks either knocks you down or you get up and keep at it and learn MORE than a system.
Did Efren learn a system?
I know that Varner got taken under wing by Hubert Cokes in the early 70's, and he had an instructor Hal Nix??
But I never heard of men like, McCready, Rempe, Hopkins etc that learned a system.
I'm not knocking your thinking; I just know that you can only go so far with basic shot execution/thinking system.

As I've said before, I beat Earl in 79 four straight sets of race to 11/roll out nine ball over a 6-7 hr period, and NO one had ever given me any swing system instruction. I've beat Buddy Hall and thee alike, but never understood the game well enought to Always beat em. Once you're in balance and have developed a proper swing and your body weight is right, your able to learn thru trial error and asking questions why I missed/or understanding' 'ball and play condition collisions'' .... when technically.... all the moving parts were systematically correct.
 
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