Is it "Common Practice" to Split the Money in the Finals These Days?

I know this has been talked about - and I didn't read this whole thread.

BUT - This was posted on FaceBook for a very recent event. It is an amateur event.
What are the thoughts of splitting (3 way I heard) and then announcing it on FB?

I believe they all got $333 - the event only paid 1st place of $1,000. (that is another discussion).

Alex (Olinger) played very well this weekend in Columbus Ohio in the 2014 NAPA MEGA Singles. splitting all 3 tournaments with his peers in the finals. Congratulations! — with Alex Olinger.

I'm curious about everyone's response.

Mark Griffin

i'm torn. it depends on how you qualify it, Mark.

i do understand savers. and splits are semantics. i would think, that it'd take the pressure off of the player(s), so that they could simply "do what they do best". and especially when time is an issue - just call it done; a sure thing.

but as a consumer, if i've spent my time & possibly my $$$$ betting, then i expect THEIR BEST.

dumps - are a whole other issue....

but to post it on FB/publically, is stupid. the worst pool thing that has happened to me as a fan, in the past 6 months, is learning that all of the above occur.
 
After losing my first round I battled back to the finals today at Rusty's Billiards Bar Table Event in Ft. Worth Texas. I had to beat my opponent twice (playing races to 4) and he ask me if I wanted to just "split" the money and not play - this put me in an awkward position.

Since I had to beat him twice in relatively short sets (races to 4, then race to 3) I agreed, but now I'm wondering if I should have just went ahead and tried to winYes, why try to win?. In reality it caught me off guard when I was ask and I made a snap decision based on just being happy to go all the way through the loser's side.

What do you think?I think you are dishonest but I've thought that for a long time anyway, now I know it for a fact. Should the players even be allowed to split the money in the finals of a tournament? There was also a sizeable calcutta involved too....does this make a difference?

It's dishonest. Why would you bother asking a question you already know the answer to?

Here's a little help from R.H. Gilmer on Southern Billiards:

Professor said:
Players playing in the same tournament arranging in any way to share in tournament and/or Calcutta monies from that tournament is wrong!

As with all post on this forum, I say it is wrong in the sense that it is bad for the sport. Now, may players will immediately bow up on this statement and defend this type of behavior. That defense, at least all the ones I have heard and tried to make, is based purely on self interests.

The idea of two players going on the road and cutting up the money is one thing, but when it comes to tournament play it is totally another.

Consider the following: You walk into your local poolroom. There are two guys from three states away traveling the road together that have stopped in your local poolroom. They are playing each other one-pocket for a nickel in the middle (As Shorty would tell you, that mean they are betting each other $500 a game). You set down on the rail to sweat the game and watch a few games in what appears to be a fairly close match up. A total stranger seated next to you , turns to you and asks, Who you like for a dollar or two?

Now wouldnt you be a little hesitant to bet on either player? You should be, it is one of the oldest hustles in the book, commonly known as two friends and a stranger. It turns out that the stranger is with the two players. You could pick either player, and you would lose. In fact, you could even pick any shot to be made, and you would lose. The signals are subtle.

Point is this type of behavior is wrong, it hurts the game. Not only would you not bet on the game, you would not pay to watch the game. If you did pay to watch such a game, and then found out what was going on you would feel cheated. And, you would have been. You would have paid good money to watch two guys play the best they could play for the cash. That is not what you would get.

Now, all of us would agree (at least all but, possibly the two friends and a stranger) that this type of behavior is wrong, no doubt about it.

There is no difference in this and two players agreeing to split monies derived from a tournament! It is wrong!

Lets take the one of the most common cases: Assume two players have entered a tournament and agreed to split the money down the middle. That is regardless of what either player wins, the money will be pooled and divided equally. Now assume further that these same two players end up playing each other in the finals. You paid a fee to watch the finals, if not an actual door or spectator pass, you encountered some costs to get to the room to watch the tournament. Regardless of how hard the players may say they are playing to win, they are NOT playing the best they can play for the CASH! This is true, for the simple fact that there is NO cash to be played for. You, as simply a spectator, were cheated, plain and simple. Now, how much you were cheated out of depends on the costs you incur in getting to the room to watch the tournament. The existence of a spectator or door fee would simply add to this costs.
Would it make any difference if the players had agreed on something less than an equal split? Well yes, but it is still wrong if their agreement makes any difference in the amount of money they would get if they win or if they lose.

Do not misunderstand what I am saying. I am not saying that one player would intentionally lose to another. I am simply saying that in the simplest case, the spectator is being cheated, and that is wrong. However, the mere existence of any agreement to share monies from the tournament, will have some effect even if the two players meet up somewhere in the tournament brackets, still out of the money. Regardless of what they may say, the simple fact that the agreement exist, could and does effect their play given that on a subconscious level they think one player has a better chance to make it further than the other. We all know that at the top level of this, or any sport, performance is controlled by the subconscious. Or, on the other hand, the existence of the agreement means that regardless of how far one of the players makes it, the payoff is less than it would have been without the agreement.

Now, I have thought about this a great deal, and the only argument I could make that was not based on self interests, but rather on the interest of the betterment of the sport based on the idea that such agreements might result in a greater number of players entering a tournament, which would be good for the sport. However, I dont think that beyond two players agreeing to share expenses, any other agreement would justify the potential wrong by such agreements.

A lot of people lament about the fact that pool does not have the stature and standing that sports such as golf or tennis, or bowling do for that matter. Read the history of these sports. They didnt always have the stature, standing, and support they do today. I think you will find that they were riddled with the same problems that pool continues to suffer from today. One, being the one that is the topic of this post, split agreements between the players.

One of the first things supporters of these sports did in agreeing to sponsor (tournaments) them was to TELL them that all such agreements would STOP, and that if they didnt THEY, the sponsors, were out! Now, the strength of the player organizations and the sponsors in these sports has risen to the point today, that it is the individual player that is out today, but it was the sponsors threat to pull out originally that got them headed to where they are today. Thus, if we want the success that these sports have, rather than lamenting about not having it, we could look at how they got were they are today and take a lesson from it.

One such lesson would be that until we get a sponsor or a player organization that has the wherewithal to stop such behavior, we must try to do it on our own. Thus, we must realize that while it may be good from a self interest point of view, splits and other agreements to divide up tournament money is wrong from the games best interest point of view; and stop making and/or condoning such agreements.

Postscript: Nobody said this was going to be easy or with out costs people.

Post-postscript: This type discussion naturally leads to a similar one related to Calcuttas, but I will but that one in a separate post, for it is a totally different animal.

Professor,
Quantum ego meditatio, quantum fortunatus ego acquiro
 
I was in a tourney recently and there were 4 o us left, 3 on the losers side and the dude waiting to play finals.

Dude waiting wants to take the split and take off. Everybody is open to it and I say 'then we split it evenly 4 ways, right?' And he balked. He says he is guaranteed 2nd and I say we are doing him a favor.

What we've got here is failure to communicate.

I won't budge on the required consideration for the favor...and he now gets to wait it out.

About 2hr later, he collected his 2nd prize money and hit the door. I took the first place cheese and smiled a malicious smile.
\m/
 
Oh, and my usual line is 'I came to play'.

Axejunkie charged me for taking that position, last time I spoke those words.
 
Lawyers usually ask questions they know the answer to.

It's dishonest. Why would you bother asking a question you already know the answer to?

Here's a little help from R.H. Gilmer on Southern Billiards:

Lawyers and intelligentsia usually ask questions they know the answer to.....this is a common practice to keep the proletariat on their toes....it's a test, only a test. :groucho:

This is not dishonest,*** the tournament director was fine with it and so was 100% of everyone else in the tournament and the calcutta.
th


*** dishonest:
proceeding from or exhibiting lack of honesty; fraudulent: a dishonest advertisement.
Origin:
1350–1400; Middle English dishoneste < Anglo-French, Old French deshoneste, equivalent to des- dis-1 + honeste honest
 
I've done it before...

It was a long day, there were three matches left to play before mine (in the hotseat) and I just asked all the remaining players if they were willing to split if they got to me. They were, so I took my split from first/second and went home rather than wait around another two hours or three hours.

There are no calcuttas in Cali do I didn't have to worry about that.

Jaden
 
I would always play it out, unless the split was offered by a very strong player in the hot seat that I knew I probably couldn't beat once, much less twice.

I would never offer to split. It would just feel cowardly, even if I was probably going to lose anyway.
 
Internet poker had a big impact on the circulation of gambling money.

It's just different these days than back in the 80s and 90s. There's very little emphasis on "heart" like there was during that era.....it's difficult to believe how little action exists currently around the country......I'd say about 10% of what there was 30 years ago.

Internet poker had a big impact on the circulation of gambling money....and even the internet shifted money from "the streets" to behind closed doors.



It was a long day, there were three matches left to play before mine (in the hotseat) and I just asked all the remaining players if they were willing to split if they got to me. They were, so I took my split from first/second and went home rather than wait around another two hours or three hours.

There are no calcuttas in Cali do I didn't have to worry about that.

Jaden
 
After losing my first round I battled back to the finals today at Rusty's Billiards Bar Table Event in Ft. Worth Texas. I had to beat my opponent twice (playing races to 4) and he ask me if I wanted to just "split" the money and not play - this put me in an awkward position.

Since I had to beat him twice in relatively short sets (races to 4, then race to 3) I agreed, but now I'm wondering if I should have just went ahead and tried to win. In reality it caught me off guard when I was ask and I made a snap decision based on just being happy to go all the way through the loser's side.

What do you think? Should the players even be allowed to split the money in the finals of a tournament? There was also a sizeable calcutta involved too....does this make a difference?

As the song says "no one knows what goes on behind closed doors". But my opinion is that it is "always" wrong, otherwise, it would not be necessary to close the door. It's a contest to see who is the best player that day in that event. The split cheats the fans, sweators, and further perpetuates the mystique that pool is shady, unreliable and that a fix was on before the contest occured. Pool is unique, however, because it has no defined rules to abide by. Any tournament can make the rules be anything they want them to be. Name any other credible game/sport where this occurs routinely.
 
The chances of this changing without a major Pool TV Show is 0%

My reference was internet poker taking money from the "streets" to behind closed doors. This simply meant the closed doors of someone's home or office, instead of the public gambling at cards, and pool (the reason for the lack of action as I was mentioning in my last post).

No, there was no "behind closed doors" in anything I'm referring to, just splitting the money at a small tournaments with no spectators.

This has very little impact on the game as a whole, without TV the game is in a holding pattern. The chances of this changing without a major Pool TV Show is 0% imho.


As the song says "no one knows what goes on behind closed doors". But my opinion is that it is "always" wrong, otherwise, it would not be necessary to close the door. It's a contest to see who is the best player that day in that event. The split cheats the fans, sweators, and further perpetuates the mystique that pool is shady, unreliable and that a fix was on before the contest occured. Pool is unique, however, because it has no defined rules to abide by. Any tournament can make the rules be anything they want them to be. Name any other credible game/sport where this occurs routinely.
 
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