is it easy for you guys to copy a taper?
- Thread starter ddadams
- Start date
If he has a cnc taper machine. From what I know about others, once they finally get their bar set just right they wouldn't touch it again...ever. I suppose It could be done by hand...
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Depends on what you mean by easy.
As already stated, with CNC it should be a snap...
It can be done 'by hand' without using ones existing manual taper bar. But even if you
are clever enough to sus out how, it would be a time consuming process. Read not at
all cheap.
Just a FYI - be prepared for the possibility that it is the shaft, and not necessarily the
taper that is so appealing.
Dale
The actual shaft is an extremely high quality piece of wood, that is a given.
I was going to try and search for someone who can/would do this and use a great piece of wood as well.
The big thing is that this shaft has an ivory ferrule and I'd like a couple without...
The taper itself actually is extremely comfortable compared to any other I've tried.
For myself trying to copy someone elses taper is next to impossible with my set up. As stated it could be done by hand, that is dialing in the compound as you go along instead of just letting the bearing follow the taper bar. I only know one person who does shafts by hand and he is not doing any work right now that I know of although this may have changed.
I asked the same question here a couple times myself. I also asked about 12 diff cuemakers either thru email,phone,and in person conversations.
SOME of the responses I got were that couldn't be done accurately,because CNC wasn't readily available when I started asking about it.
Others told me it COULD be done accurately,without CNC because they were skilled at measuring the blank inch by inch,and hand-sanding. Those that told me that added it wasn't cheap.
I had a couple tell me their lathe had an adjustable taper bar,and it could not only be done accurately,but repeatable.
I asked my shop instructor,and he said he seriously doubted you could get a piece of wood to turn accurately enough without wobbling/flexing to be able to cut such a small taper with any kind of reliability,but that was based on his initial thought that the cutting would be done with a single-point tool,not a router.
Then I asked Evan from Schon. He said it doesn't make ANY difference how trick your tapering setup is,as far as creating a new taper or copying one for that matter,because you are dealing with wood and your so-called perfect taper is going to change after you cut it because you're going to have to SAND it anyway,and that will invariably change your taper enough to make a difference possibly.
Once I heard that,the issue was settled in my mind.
I have since concluded thanks to Bob Dzuricky and a couple others that with advances in cutting tools,routers,and CNC that if you can get a good enough surface finish on the wood so that minimal sanding is needed to make the shaft playable after joint,ferrule,and tip installation,that accurate tapers CAN be done with the right equipment. Tommy D.
SOME of the responses I got were that couldn't be done accurately,because CNC wasn't readily available when I started asking about it.
Others told me it COULD be done accurately,without CNC because they were skilled at measuring the blank inch by inch,and hand-sanding. Those that told me that added it wasn't cheap.
I had a couple tell me their lathe had an adjustable taper bar,and it could not only be done accurately,but repeatable.
I asked my shop instructor,and he said he seriously doubted you could get a piece of wood to turn accurately enough without wobbling/flexing to be able to cut such a small taper with any kind of reliability,but that was based on his initial thought that the cutting would be done with a single-point tool,not a router.
Then I asked Evan from Schon. He said it doesn't make ANY difference how trick your tapering setup is,as far as creating a new taper or copying one for that matter,because you are dealing with wood and your so-called perfect taper is going to change after you cut it because you're going to have to SAND it anyway,and that will invariably change your taper enough to make a difference possibly.
Once I heard that,the issue was settled in my mind.
I have since concluded thanks to Bob Dzuricky and a couple others that with advances in cutting tools,routers,and CNC that if you can get a good enough surface finish on the wood so that minimal sanding is needed to make the shaft playable after joint,ferrule,and tip installation,that accurate tapers CAN be done with the right equipment. Tommy D.
First , let's qualify your taper.
If it's some curved taper down to the 20" mark or so then a linear
taper from there to the tip, it'd be tough to copy on a manual
machine.
If it's a compound taper made of several straight angles, it can be done.
My manual taperer traces a groove and I can back out the cutter
in .001" increments while running .
To simplify taper, let's not get into measuring every inch
That's so anal, I don't even want to deal with it.
Let's define your stroking area.
Let's cut it down to 18" from the tip.
Measure the numbers every 6 inches and get close to those
3 numbers then fine sand it.
Writing the codes on Cnc would be a breeze.
Let's just say your ferrule is 13mm, and taper is 1mm in 12 inches.
Just touch the ferrule and back out half a MM going to the 12" mark.
That will give 1Mm taper in 12 inches.
That being said. why not just send it to the original maker?
If it's some curved taper down to the 20" mark or so then a linear
taper from there to the tip, it'd be tough to copy on a manual
machine.
If it's a compound taper made of several straight angles, it can be done.
My manual taperer traces a groove and I can back out the cutter
in .001" increments while running .
To simplify taper, let's not get into measuring every inch
That's so anal, I don't even want to deal with it.
Let's define your stroking area.
Let's cut it down to 18" from the tip.
Measure the numbers every 6 inches and get close to those
3 numbers then fine sand it.
Writing the codes on Cnc would be a breeze.
Let's just say your ferrule is 13mm, and taper is 1mm in 12 inches.
Just touch the ferrule and back out half a MM going to the 12" mark.
That will give 1Mm taper in 12 inches.
That being said. why not just send it to the original maker?
They aren't making cues anymore.
You might consider giving the guys a Samsara a call. Not too long ago I read on their website that they would match the taper of any shaft you send them using (if I remember correctly) a CNC grinder. I do remember that there was a $50 programming fee plus the actual price of the shaft. Unfortunately, I can't find that option on their new website.
For what its worth, I ordered a cue from them around 10 years ago and they hit the delivery date right on the head. Plus the quality and playability are incredible.
Here's their info:
Phone: (701)776-7240 Fax: (701)776-7240
For what its worth, I ordered a cue from them around 10 years ago and they hit the delivery date right on the head. Plus the quality and playability are incredible.
Here's their info:
Phone: (701)776-7240 Fax: (701)776-7240
I suppose I should finish my cnc shaft machine. The Powermatic 66 I bought for it ended up needing arbor bearings....
Much appreciated.
I'll probably do this. One or the other at least.
I appreciate the help from everyone regardless.
Always get good information from this subforum.
Is it finished ?
kind of...trying to get it tuned.. was working....OK.. then i took the jig off and remounted it...barberpoles...
Hi,
I have been building shafts for over 10 years and have used 5 different machines and for the last 7 years have used a saw machine. I use pivot taper bars and don't not wish to match someone else's shaft taper and don't take on that type of business. Persons should go to the original maker for that stuff IMO.
Joey's question concerning feeds and speeds are very relevant but once you find what works for you there are always way to tweak your end result for the better. Here is some stuff that I have recently done because of the need to do it.
I have found that 110 rpm at 6 minutes for. 30 " feed rate gives me a fantastic finish on my shafts without any lines whatsoever.
I use a 80 tooth triple chip flat grind carbide blade and the math works out to be over 3 million hits in 6 minutes on my machine.
No lines whatsoever to sand.
I recently modified my shaft machine tail stock to be adjustable and had more control over tail stock pressure. Relying on the length being the same on the shafts and spring pressure works but the are subtle differences in the ramp or embedment of the Sixty degree centers on each end that can be a tail stock variable. By leaving my spring loaded live center in place and adding a Vernier controlled adjuster to my tail stock I can get repeatable loading of the stock.
I recently added a new superpro taper giving me 3 shaft taper bars. Because the the contour was a 14" parabolic taper transitioning into a superpro taper (very thin with only a .0015 climb to the tip) I had a contour that wanted to bounce a hair in the center even with the lightest possible tail stock pressure. After making 10 shafts I found that I had 4 rejects because the diameter varied in the center and when rolled on the table you could see the variance under the shaft even though the shaft rolled good concerning the tip and ferrule staying and rolling good on the table.
The shaft taper plays very well for guys who want to have that big long stroke like Shane in a closed bridge. My other tapers have more spine and I never had this problem concerning frequence oscillation in the center with the other tapers.
So I recognized the root cause of the problem as being the transition point in the middle of the contour was a flex point. Since the shaft taper was playing so good to the big stroke guys I know who like the superpro deal I decided to keep the taper and address the problem by building a gantry over the centerline of my saw blade with a gravity feed Teflon round nosed cylinder as a follow rest.
It took me over a week to find the exact amount of weight in grams to find the goldilocks set point but I finally got it working perfect with about .001 run out on shafts that are lighter in weight. On the best shaft wood it is less than .001 and the RMS finish is so smooth that it is hard to believe. I thought I had the best finish to my shaft that was possible until I found the gravity rest made it even better.
I take all passes on all my shaft tapers now with this unit and it is absolutely wonderful concerning repeatable results. I am a happy camper since I have been loosing sleep over the recent rejected shafts.
So my corrective actions was to build the gravity feed rest and find the correct weight combo.
The lesson learned here for me was that the more I practice the art of cue making the more I find the devil is always in the smallest detail. Amen!
I hope my experience and details of my Shaft Program Procedure helps those who strive the raise the bar of expectation concerning shafts. Lets face it the shaft is the most important half of the cue concerning playability IMO.
Rick
Gravity feed Gantry follow rest featuring a Teflon bullet end for ring on the rotating shaft in the tapering process.
I recently modified my tailstock so that I could make oversize shafts for customers and found that having the spring loaded center and vernier control over the tail stock pressure was a very small adjustment the made a positive effect on repeatability due the the slight variation of the ramp of the 60 degree center on different shafts.
Added thrust bearing modification.
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