Is it possible to throw an object ball? Nope

Neil said:
Sounds like a difference of "throwing" a ball and "curving, or masse'ing" a ball. Making an ob go on a different path than the ghost ball path is very possible, curving an ob, I don't believe is possible.
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That sounds better. I guess the OP didn't state what he really ment.
RonV, settle down buddy and read the OP's first post, made you two sound a lil crazy. You can throw a single and frozen ball(dirty balls are better) to pocket a ball. From the way RonV explains it in his thread, I've never seen nor read massing or curving a OB around another ball and fully believe that statement.



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sk8ordie said:
That sounds better. I guess the OP didn't state what he really ment.
RonV, settle down buddy and read the OP's first post, made you two sound a lil crazy. You can throw a single and frozen ball(dirty balls are better) to pocket a ball. From the way RonV explains it in his thread, I've never seen nor read massing or curving a OB around another ball and fully believe that statement.



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I stated exactly what was said to me. "You cannot throw an object ball." If different people have different definitions of what that means, then so be it.
 
mohrt said:
I stated exactly what was said to me. "You cannot throw an object ball." If different people have different definitions of what that means, then so be it.
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I can throw an object ball (not through or around another ball blocking the pocket)! I'll video it Monday and see if I'm on the wrong definition.
 
RonV said:
ok, i'll post 10k ,but I want to see someone make an OB go around another OB and then pocket the ball..

RONV.
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The OP said nothing about one OB going completely around another OB....

The OP said " Firstly, we are not talking about frozen balls, they can be thrown all day. What we are talking about specifically: a cueball striking an object ball, forcing/throwing the object ball along a different path by transferring spin from the cueball to the object ball. This cannot be done, says Ron. You are cutting the ball in every time, either by deflection or subconsiously aiming at a cut"


CRJ: Basically, if you can't cut a ball in because there is another OB in the way, you hit the OB straight on (because you can't cut it) and use the proper English and speed to "throw" the ball into the pocket.

Is the above paragraph what Ron says is not possible ??
 
ChicagoRJ said:
CRJ: Basically, if you can't cut a ball in because there is another OB in the way, you hit the OB straight on (because you can't cut it) and use the proper English and speed to "throw" the ball into the pocket.

Is the above paragraph what Ron says is not possible ??
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That's the way I read it. :yeah:
 
you can transfer english from the cue ball to the oblect ball but it will make very little difference in the path of the object ball unless there is a rail involved. Example would be you need to cross corner a shot but can only hit center of the object ball because of a blocking ball you can transfer enough english from the cue to object ball to send object ball straight to rail and make it come of the rail at a fairly significant angle do to spin transfer and this can be seen in any number of videos.
 
quadrary:
you can transfer english from the cue ball to the oblect ball but it will make very little difference in the path of the object ball
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When english is transferred, the OB is thrown - you can't have one without the other. So even though the transferred english itself won't change the path of the OB (at all), there will be throw and it may change the path of the OB substantially.

pj
chgo
 
Mitchxout said:
Whenever I try to use gearing english with a large shaft I'll undercut certain shots as if I used just centerball. Doesn't the squirt happen at higher speeds?
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Nope, it's speed independent. The swerve of the cue ball (which also counteracts the squirt) is speed dependent though. This makes you assume that, for long shots, squirt increases with the speed of your shot. However what happens is that you're shooting too fast for the cueball to finish its swerve-curve, so you see more of the squirt. Of course ... if your stroke is still as decent with fast shots as it is at slow speeds.

Curving a single object ball would be difficult, because you'd need to apply downspin to it via spin transfer, which gets lost very quickly (if the top spin on your cue ball which you'd need to induce this even lasts that long). Maybe on a frozen object ball.

Regards
Gwenn
 
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I disagree. I rememeber seeing objects balls curving around other balls back in the early 70's or was it the other balls moving out of the way......that part is a little hazey, but the colors were great.......
 
The throw is instantaneous...

If the question is whether or not you can apply swerve to the OB, the answer is no. You aren't going to be able to change the path of the OB after the CB has left it regardless, but I know of no one who claims that you can...

You CAN throw the OB off the initial aim path of the CB.

You can be aiming straight at the OB with the CB and actually have the CB travel that path and have initial contact be on that path, and still have the OB travel a different course when the contact with the CB ceases. That is what is referred to as OB throw.

Jaden
 
Gwenn said:
Nope, it's speed independent. The swerve of the cue ball (which also counteracts the squirt) is speed dependent though. This makes you assume that, for long shots, squirt increases with the speed of your shot. However what happens is that you're shooting too fast for the cueball to finish its swerve-curve, so you see more of the squirt.
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I make the shot with a smaller shaft. Does the larger shaft limit the swerve? Would shooting slower with a larger shaft help?
 
Wobble-Spin.

I'm not sure if the shot below is the best example of throw or Spin induced throw, but I can consistently shoot this shot and make the center ball curve like shown. All three balls are frozen.

CueTable Help



Try it. Just use low left and try to hit the object ball straight to the rail without hitting the two frozen object balls on the outside. Even more fun to use a stripe as the center ball. Hit it with a soft to medium-soft stroke but don't be afraid to hit the shot with low left. It doesn't put a tremendous amount of spin on the object ball but kind of gets it to wobble-spin. :)
JoeyA
 
Mitchxout:
Whenever I try to use gearing english with a large shaft I'll undercut certain shots as if I used just centerball. Doesn't the squirt happen at higher speeds?
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Gwenn:
Nope, it's speed independent. The swerve of the cue ball (which also counteracts the squirt) is speed dependent though.
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Mitchxout:
I make the shot with a smaller shaft. Does the larger shaft limit the swerve? Would shooting slower with a larger shaft help?
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Shaft size and shot speed are two different causes, but they can have the same effect on your shot:

- a larger shaft causes more squirt, which can make you undercut outside spin shots (and overcut inside spin shots)

- faster speed reduces swerve, which can also make you undercut outside spin shots (and overcut inside spin shots)


[Shorter CB/OB distance or faster equipment can also make you undercut outside spin shots (and overcut inside spin shots).]

Shooting slower would increase swerve, which would counteract the increased squirt of a larger shaft, but I don't think it's the best solution. For one reason, swerve is harder to judge than squirt because of all the variables involved (distance, speed, equipment condition, even humidity). For another, you need to be able to select your speed to position the CB for the next shot. I'd learn how the larger shaft squirts and work with it.

pj
chgo
 
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JoeyA said:
I'm not sure if the shot below is the best example of throw or Spin induced throw, but I can consistently shoot this shot and make the center ball curve like shown. ..
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Your diagram doesn't show the middle ball curving, it shows it going straight to the cushion and then taking an angle off the cushion caused by the small amount of side spin the cue ball put on it. I think the object ball doesn't curve on its way to the cushion.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
He's mad because we disagreed with something he didn't say.

pj
chgo
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Well, yes, but are you sure he didn't mean to say what he didn't say? It would be nice if he said now what he didn't mean to say, or even what he did mean to say if he meant to say it. I think we are dealing with an unknownable unknown at this time, but that doesn't prevent a spirited discussion.
 
JoeyA said:
I'm not sure if the shot below is the best example of throw or Spin induced throw, but I can consistently shoot this shot and make the center ball curve like shown. All three balls are frozen.

CueTable Help



Try it. Just use low left and try to hit the object ball straight to the rail without hitting the two frozen object balls on the outside. Even more fun to use a stripe as the center ball. Hit it with a soft to medium-soft stroke but don't be afraid to hit the shot with low left. It doesn't put a tremendous amount of spin on the object ball but kind of gets it to wobble-spin. :)
JoeyA
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Joey
I would call this an example of TRANSFERRED english.
To me, THROW would allow the ball to hit a DIFFERENT place on the rail.
Unlike the op, I feel this can be done...at a slowish speed.
Straight pool players have been doing this for years to either get a kiss
or to avoid a kiss.
I could set a few shots up to demonstrate this on a table..but I'm not
sure I could satisfy the op or his benefactor.

Top players have been arguing about stuff like this for well over a 100
years.Often they aren't even disagreeing about the physical effects....
...only the semantics
 
JoeyA said:
I'm not sure if the shot below is the best example of throw or Spin induced throw, but I can consistently shoot this shot and make the center ball curve like shown. All three balls are frozen.

CueTable Help

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Good example, Joey.

However, to be clear, the OB is not "curving" (AKA "swerving"). Instead, the transferred spin is altering the rebound angle off the rail. You might think this is nit-picky, but terminology seems to be causing a lot of confusion in this thread. OBs can be thrown, and spin can be transferred to them, and transferred spin can change rebound angles off rails; however, OBs can't "curve" or "turn" or "swerve," per the info, videos, and resources on the OB swerve/turn resource page.

JoeyA said:
Try it. Just use low left and try to hit the object ball straight to the rail without hitting the two frozen object balls on the outside. Even more fun to use a stripe as the center ball. Hit it with a soft to medium-soft stroke but don't be afraid to hit the shot with low left. It doesn't put a tremendous amount of spin on the object ball but kind of gets it to wobble-spin. :)
JoeyA
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BTW, throw and spin transfer are maximum at slower-speed stun shots with about 50% English (half maximum). However, at slower speeds, more of the transferred spin will wear off on the way to the rail, so the optimal speed (for the spin-transfer rebound-angle-change effect) will depend on conditions and the distance to the rail. FYI, the following videos show the effects of speed and spin on spin-induced throw (SIT) and spin-induced spin (SIS) fairly well:
Check them out. Also, a lot more info, including many more examples, can be found on the spin transfer resource page.

Regards,
Dave
 
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