Is it stealing?

Sloppy Pockets

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is long and is going to seem farfetched or even come across as BS, but I don't care, I just gotta share...


When I built my room I had to remove a pole and install a steel beam. The builder said not to go beyond 14', but I put in a 15' beam and the house is still standing. However, even this still leaves the rare shot from the jaws of the corner pocket into the opposite side when my cue hits a pole. I have a 48" club for those times, but I hate shooting with it, so if I'm only practicing, I usually move the CB a bit so the cue butt clears. Haven't ever called a foul on myself doing this.

Last night I was having a decent run (by my standards) and such a shot came up. I tried to jack up high enough for the butt to clear but missed the shot badly. I grabbed the stubby out of the corner, dressed the tip, chalked up and took a few shots. What a pig! Hits like a steel bar and is too short to take a proper stroke. But it got me thinking about Pat Fleming's short cue, and I thought maybe I might enjoy the room better if I could get used to a shorter cue. Pat himself once claimed "the short cue is stealing".

Now here's the fun part. For some reason unknown to me, I decided to take several shots with this inelegant club. At first I seemed to have a hard time stroking straight with it. I missed several easy cuts, but then somehow my stroke suddenly got real straight, and the balls started dropping. Over and over and over again. I just kept throwing balls out as I passed pockets, picking out medium to difficult cuts, long straight-ins, back cuts, combos, rail shots, even some banks. I was one-stroking almost every one right into the heart of the pocket, and getting decent control of my rock as well. I was as much in dead stroke as I've ever been in my life, and I have absolutely no idea why except for the short cue.

Some two hours later I looked at my phone and it was 1AM. I was afraid to put the cue down for fear this would never return, but my back was killing me (still is) and I limped up the stairs. I was so excited that I couldn't sleep, and almost caught an elbow to the face when I tried to wake my wife up to tell her about it.

Bottom line is I was shooting way, way beyond my skill level with the most unlikely weapon I could imagine using. Now I gotta have a real cue made that can hopefully bring a whole new dimension to my playing. All this time I was lamenting the fact that my room was too small for a 60" cue, when I should have been playing with a shorter cue instead.

Anybody here have any real experience with short cues? I'm thinking 54" like what Pat settled on, but no idea about the taper, balance, joint, etc. that would be appropriate. One thing I noticed is that it was hard to get real action on the ball with the stubby cue. I couldn't draw it more than a couple feet from even two diamonds apart, and I was real careful to hit the CB as low as I could. The tip just didn't seem to grab the ball right. Could be the extremely stiff conical taper, the weight (I checked - it is only 15oz), maybe the cue is just way too short to get through the ball properly, I dunno. All I do know is that it shoots REAL straight with the compact stroke I've gone back to lately. It almost seems custom made for that kind of stroke.
 

ddadams

Absolutely love this cue.
Silver Member
I have a 54" sneaky pete made by Keith Hanssen.

Another cuemaker gave me the idea and so I ran with it and it's my favorite cue.

I'm a huge fan of the short cue. I say go for it.
 

Sloppy Pockets

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have a 54" sneaky pete made by Keith Hanssen.

Another cuemaker gave me the idea and so I ran with it and it's my favorite cue.

I'm a huge fan of the short cue. I say go for it.

Can you tell me the particulars about your cue? Weight, balance point, shaft taper, woods used etc? I really can't afford a fancy custom cue, but maybe when I lose my last remaining tooth the tooth fairy will leave enough money under my pillow for a sneaky.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm a bit short and even then I find that my stroke is towards the back of the cue to feel comfortable on a 58" cue. How can you hold a 54" cue and still have enough room to move it back for any type of shot over a low power one? I'm betting that is why you can't get an draw on the ball, not enough pendulum motion available to gather momentum for the proper stroke.

Having said that, I have a shorty custom cue by Steve Klapp that my son used when he was 9-10 or so, I'll measure it and see how it feels with a few hours of playing. It may be under 54" though. I'll stick it in my case when I go to SBE, if I can get on a table, I'll play around with it for a bit.

I know Pat uses a short stick, but I think he is the only player I have really heard of that does, everyone is going to 60" or more now thanks to Earl, Mika and Shane who all started using full time extenders.

I also see a lot more glove use than before because of Earl and Shane, used to be you'd see a glove on the beginners and maybe one of 20 good players used them, now it seems every other player has a glove.
 

fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
Mr. Sloppy, is it maybe your technique and not the short cue? I'm assuming you are using a shorter stroke with the short cue, are you also shortening up the length of your bridge too? Are you bending your bridging arm and actually getting your head closer to the QB? Maybe choke up on your regular player to see if you are potting balls with the same accuracy as the short cue to determine if its the cue or your different stroke that is helping you. I know that if I have a tough shot that demands high accuracy and not much QB travel I will sometimes bridge much closer to QB, it seems to help me.
 

Sloppy Pockets

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm a bit short and even then I find that my stroke is towards the back of the cue to feel comfortable on a 58" cue. How can you hold a 54" cue and still have enough room to move it back for any type of shot over a low power one? I'm betting that is why you can't get an draw on the ball, not enough pendulum motion available to gather momentum for the proper stroke.

Having said that, I have a shorty custom cue by Steve Klapp that my son used when he was 9-10 or so, I'll measure it and see how it feels with a few hours of playing. It may be under 54" though. I'll stick it in my case when I go to SBE, if I can get on a table, I'll play around with it for a bit.

I know Pat uses a short stick, but I think he is the only player I have really heard of that does, everyone is going to 60" or more now thanks to Earl, Mika and Shane who all started using full time extenders.

I also see a lot more glove use than before because of Earl and Shane, used to be you'd see a glove on the beginners and maybe one of 20 good players used them, now it seems every other player has a glove.

You may be right about the stroke length/momentum thing, but this is a 48"/15oz cue I was using, not a 54"/18-19oz cue like I'm thinking of having made. I also have been using a more compact stroke lately for most of my shots. Not exactly like a Hopkins stroke, but definitely not a long, flowing stroke. The timing is tougher, but I feel you can do most anything required with a compact stroke.

There's always the option of having a shorty built with an extension for those times when I really need to put a stroke on the ball, but I'm mostly into trying to learn a tighter and more controlled straight pool game, so a huge stroke is really never needed by me. I've come to believe that a long bridge is not the only way to get the job done on power shots, but most people have gone to a long bridge these days, so you really do need a longer cue for that if want your forearm to be perpendicular at address.

Sure wish I could get to SBE again this year, I'd love to try your cue and talk to a few cue makers about the short cue. Too much on my plate around here this year, and I need to save the dough for my youngest boy's wedding in September.
 

bdorman

Dead money
Silver Member
Sloppy -- do you think you're gripping the cue in same place (as in distance-from-the-tip) or did you shorten your grip or bridge length?

With my normal grip the back of my hand is only about 2-3" from the butt end of the cue, so a 54" cue would have me gripping just the last inch or two of the cue. That seems like it would be awkward, but maybe not.
 

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sloppy -- do you think you're gripping the cue in same place (as in distance-from-the-tip) or did you shorten your grip or bridge length?

With my normal grip the back of my hand is only about 2-3" from the butt end of the cue, so a 54" cue would have me gripping just the last inch or two of the cue. That seems like it would be awkward, but maybe not.

My grip is normally almost dead center of the wrap for almost every type of shot that I don't have to stretch for. I don't know how many inches that is, but it must be at least eight inches, so I guess I could hold a 50 inch cue at the end and do the same thing.

In order to use it as a main player and avoid using the bridge or swapping cues for different shots, you'd have to maintain near perfect position all the time. Maybe using the smaller cue subconsciously increases your focus.

If you keep shooting lights out with it, I'd prefer it over a Balabushka if it were me.

Aloha.
 

jhanso18

Broken Lock
Silver Member
Can you tell me the particulars about your cue? Weight, balance point, shaft taper, woods used etc? I really can't afford a fancy custom cue, but maybe when I lose my last remaining tooth the tooth fairy will leave enough money under my pillow for a sneaky.

I can a little bit. It's a crazy idea, but it turned out well. Danny but is shorter 26", I think and the shaft is 28" It hits very well, and seems to do the trick for Danny. I believe it also has a small taper, but you'd have to wait for him to respond.

all this is if memory serves correct.
 

Sloppy Pockets

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks for all the comments, guys.

Yes, the entire technique is different when using a cue this short. Little shorter bridge, shorter stroke, back hand gripping rear of cue. Definitely feels "closer to my work". The shot line is easier for me to see this way, and I feel more connected to the OB somehow, which did seem to sharpen my focus. Hard to explain, not sure I understand all the differences at this point myself. It's just to radical a difference.

My regular player is just a Players cue with a regular maple shaft, but I like it a lot. It is quite forward balanced, so I am used to holding the cue farther forward on the grip, a few inches behind the balance point.

Maybe this cue is just bringing me that much closer to the shot. I'd love to try it some more today, but I'm already nursing a back my stupid 63 year-old self pulled trying to move some massive piles of sod that got dumped for fill last fall. I went down to the table half an hour ago, took three shots and that was it. Back froze up tighter than a bull's arse.

Anyway, I really want to put this on the shelf until I get a 54" cue in my hands. This thing is just horrible to play with on so many levels, and I don't want to entrain bad habits. Maybe I'll just cut down an old house cue and change the taper closer to a pro taper. I think I could accomplish that on my lathe, and all I'd risk is a cheap cue I never use anyway.
 

Sloppy Pockets

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've also tried to get used to short carom cues,when playing that game. It always wrecks havoc on my stroke to play with those short, stiff carom cues, and like you say I can't get any action at all. I have a mentor of sorts in carom, and he's really impressed with my force follow shots, but I can only make them with a pool cue with some flex in the shaft..Having tried a carom cue for pool I'd have to say that I thought it was awful. No feel at all, and the stroke gets so choppy..

Yes, it feels like total crap. Terrible hit, hard, loud, and no action at all. The only thing that was good about using it was how well I was pocketing balls. Lol

Interesting thing is that last year at SBE I was talking to John Schmidt at the Fury booth, and he was showing me how easy it was to get a full table length draw using his super flexible shaft. He was bending it with his bare hands, proclaiming it to be like spaghetti (and it did look pretty damn flexible). Then he had me set up some balls about an inch away from the long rail and half a diamond back, while he shot the ball from in the kitchen into the far pocket and drew it all the way back with very little apparent effort.

I know the physics gurus will say something different, but he was convinced it was the flexible shaft that made the difference. Heck, I believe the scientists, but the apparent ease with which he was power drawing that ball back made me suspend my disbelief, at least while I was standing there watching him. From my vantage point I could actually see the shaft bend under load and then straighten. No slo-mo necessary (but I'd love to see it anyway, hear that Slomoholic?). John's quite a player for sure, so let's not put it all down to the placebo effect.

These puzzling contradictions always make me side with the opinion of the top player, even if the obvious effect has a different cause than they think it is. Maybe I just like to believe in a bit of magic now and then. Whatever, I flat out could not draw that rock more than a couple feet with that stubby cue no matter what I tried. Makes it kinda useless as a regular player, but my hope is that a good maker can build some feel into a shorter stick. The answer has to be in the taper somehow, just don't know where.
 

Tramp Steamer

One Pocket enthusiast.
Silver Member
Sooner, or later, Slop, you and the missus are going to catch each others eye and just like in the Cialis commercial, you'll start doing the 'wild thang' on the pool table when all of a sudden the beam breaks in half and kills you both. I think you should go back to the original plan of 14 inches. Better safe than sorry. :smile:
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have a good buddy who is sponsored by Lambros cues and his cue is 55", as I recall. He is about 6' and plays real good-like.
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is long and is going to seem farfetched or even come across as BS, but I don't care, I just gotta share...


When I built my room I had to remove a pole and install a steel beam. The builder said not to go beyond 14', but I put in a 15' beam and the house is still standing. However, even this still leaves the rare shot from the jaws of the corner pocket into the opposite side when my cue hits a pole. I have a 48" club for those times, but I hate shooting with it, so if I'm only practicing, I usually move the CB a bit so the cue butt clears. Haven't ever called a foul on myself doing this.

Last night I was having a decent run (by my standards) and such a shot came up. I tried to jack up high enough for the butt to clear but missed the shot badly. I grabbed the stubby out of the corner, dressed the tip, chalked up and took a few shots. What a pig! Hits like a steel bar and is too short to take a proper stroke. But it got me thinking about Pat Fleming's short cue, and I thought maybe I might enjoy the room better if I could get used to a shorter cue. Pat himself once claimed "the short cue is stealing".

Now here's the fun part. For some reason unknown to me, I decided to take several shots with this inelegant club. At first I seemed to have a hard time stroking straight with it. I missed several easy cuts, but then somehow my stroke suddenly got real straight, and the balls started dropping. Over and over and over again. I just kept throwing balls out as I passed pockets, picking out medium to difficult cuts, long straight-ins, back cuts, combos, rail shots, even some banks. I was one-stroking almost every one right into the heart of the pocket, and getting decent control of my rock as well. I was as much in dead stroke as I've ever been in my life, and I have absolutely no idea why except for the short cue.

Some two hours later I looked at my phone and it was 1AM. I was afraid to put the cue down for fear this would never return, but my back was killing me (still is) and I limped up the stairs. I was so excited that I couldn't sleep, and almost caught an elbow to the face when I tried to wake my wife up to tell her about it.

Bottom line is I was shooting way, way beyond my skill level with the most unlikely weapon I could imagine using. Now I gotta have a real cue made that can hopefully bring a whole new dimension to my playing. All this time I was lamenting the fact that my room was too small for a 60" cue, when I should have been playing with a shorter cue instead.

Anybody here have any real experience with short cues? I'm thinking 54" like what Pat settled on, but no idea about the taper, balance, joint, etc. that would be appropriate. One thing I noticed is that it was hard to get real action on the ball with the stubby cue. I couldn't draw it more than a couple feet from even two diamonds apart, and I was real careful to hit the CB as low as I could. The tip just didn't seem to grab the ball right. Could be the extremely stiff conical taper, the weight (I checked - it is only 15oz), maybe the cue is just way too short to get through the ball properly, I dunno. All I do know is that it shoots REAL straight with the compact stroke I've gone back to lately. It almost seems custom made for that kind of stroke.


SP, from my personal experience I can tell you two things:

First, I have no doubt you played stupendously that night. We've all entered those rare fugue states when we play far beyond the level we expect and it is wondrous.

Second, once again from personal experience, you can convince yourself of some amazing things when experimenting on your home track, all by your lonesome. Soooo, before committing to the shorter cue, I might suggest you take the short stick "out on the road" to a local room, or at least into some sort of competitive situation, and see if you remain pleased with the result.

Like I said, we can all convince ourselves of some amazing things on the practice table.

Lou Figueroa
 

BigBoof

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
McDermott makes a "prodigy" cue, irrc. Also, I just bought my kids their first cues from Cuesight.com. Small cost to see if 54" is the way to go. One of the area shortstops told me he thinks players should use shorter cues, rather than these full-time extensions.
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I agree with Lou. So many times we make a change (anything...), play lights out with it, and are convinced it's "the thing" that was missing in our game. Fast forward a few weeks, or even a few days, and we are back to our "normal speed". That mean placebo affect:(:(
 

Sloppy Pockets

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
SP, from my personal experience I can tell you two things:

First, I have no doubt you played stupendously that night. We've all entered those rare fugue states when we play far beyond the level we expect and it is wondrous.

Second, once again from personal experience, you can convince yourself of some amazing things when experimenting on your home track, all by your lonesome. Soooo, before committing to the shorter cue, I might suggest you take the short stick "out on the road" to a local room, or at least into some sort of competitive situation, and see if you remain pleased with the result.

Like I said, we can all convince ourselves of some amazing things on the practice table.

Lou Figueroa

Lou, I don't get out to the local pool hall here in Amsterdam, NY too often. It's a real nice room, but not much activity except for league. Probably none for a guy walking in with a 48" cue in his hand. Maybe I can get Barton to make me a custom Flowers "tribute" case for it, I dunno.

I know what you're saying. I've experienced that placebo effect many times before with strange cues, stroke changes, stance changes, etc. I even had a moment of brilliance right after dumping a brand-new set of Centennials on the cloth and suddenly couldn't miss a shot. All such transcendent moments of pool genius were fleeting at best.

So, no, I'm not going to get a $1500 custom cue made in a size that would make resale impossible if I don't like it, but I see nothing wrong with taking an old one-piece Dufferin I have laying around, cutting 4" off the tip, chucking in the lathe and turning a decent taper on it and putting a ferrule and an UltraSkin Pro on it and giving that a good workout.

If it turns out to be "stealing" as Pat suggests, I'll take it down to the Golden Cue in Albany and donate a bit to the local one-pocket players. If not, well, at least I'll have a better shorty for those occasional shots out of those two corner pockets where I'd ram the butt of a regular cue into a wall corner.

Best case scenario is I continue to shoot lights out with it and I could squeeze in a 9' GC in place of the OS 8' I got now. Guys would come over with their regular cues and be smacking them into everything, and I'd just shrug my shoulders and say, "Guess I just have a shorter stroke than you do."
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I did a little experimenting with a shorter cue. Ray Schuler, who was my cue maker at the time, was very much in favor of them. He said that extra length was unnecessary. So I gave it a try and had him make me a shorter shaft. I think the cue length was about 54 or 55 inches.

At first, using my normal bridge length, I wound up gripping the cue all the way at the end, almost at the butt cap.When I shortened my bridge length, it was fine, and I pocketed smaller shots well. But I had trouble with the big shots where I naturally wanted to extend my bridge length. There just wasn't enough cue there to accommodate that.

Thinking back on Ray's perspective, he was a carom player. His bridge length was always on the short side.

I can see the benefits of a shorter cue with average distance shots. But you'll have to get used to a perpetually shorter bridge length, which can give you some grief on the big shots.
 
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