is it true?
- Thread starter gesan
- Start date
Jude Rosenstock said:
Right Jude...but men play on TV and on new cloth too so its a push from that point of view.
Re: TV lights, I think they don't make play easier but rather more difficult. That is so because all the lights do is change the dampness in the cloth (by evaporation) and that is a progressive thing. The tables literally play differently as the match progresses.
You have probably noticed that toward the end of long matches, the players overrun their shape vs. playing short by a factor of at least 3-1.
Regards,
Jim
av84fun said:
It's interesting that you say this. In Vegas last year, they use the Diamond Smart tables which have a sharper cut pocket than most bar boxes. In the beginning when I first got out there, it was a bit of a problem. I simply didn't think the pocket would reject certain shots and I had to make adjustments. Once I did, I'd say I played like I normally do but it did take a bit of time to get there. It's almost like your brain needs to learn the pocket.
Jude Rosenstock said:
Right Jude. The numerous pocket characteristics are not necessarily easier or harder...just different in many cases. Excellent players...like you adapt.
My pal Bobby Pickel likes to book matches where the sets alternate between 9 ft and bar boxes because he adpats much quicker than most players do.
Regards,
Jim
av84fun said:
Well, that's nice of you to say. Unfortunate for me, the learning process probably cost me a decent showing in the singles event. The positive side is that it paid off for the team event which is incredibly important to me (you always want to play hard for teammates). It was very strange, nonetheless. You walk into the room not even realizing that you are trained for a particular type of cut pocket and then suddenly, you become very aware of your preferences. I have this image burned into my brain of a shot I ran down the rail, no more than an inch off the rail. On almost every standard Brunswick or barbox I've played on, that ball drops. On that Diamond, it didn't even catch the point of the pocket. Had I realized it, I would have been more careful.
If the all other thing are equal I think you are correct howeverTheBook said:The women have the advantage because the competition is not as tough.
I am not sure if it is in fact an advantage.
It might be better to play top flight players all of the time.
The only time I watch the ladies is in the morning on some classic pool show while I'm drinking my coffee and it "appears" that the pockets are bigger. It also seems like the very good women get more chances because their competition is so forgiving. Seems to be all the same players in the big events.
They can only play who they are told to play I guess.
I'm sure its been said here many times - but it sure is a shame there is not something like that with the best men players.
gesan said:
The classic shows you watch are mostly before the WPBA adopted the 4.5 inch standard a couple of years ago.
But you make a good point that players tend to rise to new levels of competition. I think that the "median" skill level on the WPBA has risen at least partially and possibly significantly due to the presence of Allison and Karen.
I think they inspired many women to enter the pro tour.
Regards,
Jim
Jude Rosenstock said:
Right. I am NO table mechanic or expert of any other sort but it seems to me that the "straight cut" is a major reason.
On down the rail shots...if the pocket is cut more like this...I I...than this.. ^...then there is little to no facing to contact...which you need to do to make the shot you described.
Regards,
Jim
av84fun said:
EXACTLY! However here's the catch - You hit that facing and the ball always drops. I mean, it's a subtle thing. It doesn't come up often but on a Brunswick, you can catch the face of a pocket and not see the ball drop. It's a different cut with a different reaction but easy versus hard - I dunno.
Diamond Pro cut pocket. From the factory.
You decide.
You decide.
This is a major point. The Diamonds actually play truer than the brunswicks. If you hit a pocket, the ball goes down. Sometimes, the Brunswicks will spit it out. Considering that the ladies play on Brunswick tables most often, they are actually playing on the tougher tables.Jude Rosenstock said:
BPG24
Banned
gesan said:
I know when I watch them make cut shots that hit 2 diamonds up the table before they go in it makes me think they are playing on Gandy's.
They sure look huge to me. In golf the tees aren't the only advantage the women get, the courses are not set up near as hard and the pin placements are sooooo much easier. Makes a huge difference
the Diamond tables are tighter than GolD Crown b/c the slate goes farther into the pocket.a 4 1/2" diamong pocket is tighter than a 4 1/2" Gold Crown pocket.
i don't know if the women play on different equiptment but all the tournaments i have seen for men and women play on new fast cloth and naturally with new cloth the balls go in easier.
i don't know if the women play on different equiptment but all the tournaments i have seen for men and women play on new fast cloth and naturally with new cloth the balls go in easier.
BPG24 said:I know when I watch them make cut shots that hit 2 diamonds up the table before they go in it makes me think they are playing on Gandy's.
In golf the tees aren't the only advantage the women get, the courses are not set up near as hard and the pin placements are sooooo much easier. Makes a huge difference
Possibly you didn't see the earlier posts. The WPBA has been playing on 4.5s for two seasons now.
And how far from the rail were the shots you saw go after hitting two diamonds up? When the ob is very close to the rail you can hit two diamons up on practically any table.
Jim
the face cut off the pocket does not have much affect on how hard a table plays the most important aspect is how far the slate comes in or out of the pocket. so a 4.5 inch pocket can play easier than a 4.7 depending on the undercut. the tv gold crown's i have played on are ridiculous the diamond table's at ipt were much tighter because of the undercut of the slate
and tv tables always play like buckets because of the new cloth and the heat generated by the tv lights which dries out the cloth and makes the balls slide off the pocket corners.
and tv tables always play like buckets because of the new cloth and the heat generated by the tv lights which dries out the cloth and makes the balls slide off the pocket corners.
chamillionare said:
The combination of face angle and shelf depth can make a significant difference.
My Olhausen (4.8) has very deep shelves. A ball can sit a good 1/4 inch behind the line between the points! The pockets also have a wide facing angle.
So, you can hit the facing and "bank" the ob back and forth between the facings and the ball won't drop. Therefore, soft shots are easier to make but hard shots are often more difficult. You get what is called "the Olhausen rattle" and it fakes out LOTS of players.
Conversely, on straighter cut pockets with less deep shelves, once you get past the points the ball is going down. So "rattles" are point-to-point rattles not facing-to-facing.
Therefore, I agree with the poster who suggested that jaw width...which is what most people refer to when that talk about tight pockets and buckets...is misleading.
On many shots, jaw width makes no difference for top players. For shots where the ob path is relatively close to being perpendicular to the jaw opening, what does a top player need 4.5 inches for...or 4 for that matter?
So, IMHO any discussion of pockets being tight or loose that does not refer to facing angle, shelf depth AND jaw width is over-simplified, generalized and misleading.
Regards,
Jim