Is it wrong to use Ivory in cues??

[ShootingArts]

Tastes like chicken

I wonder if elephant tastes good...

Tastes like chicken. Actually somewhere between a spotted owl and a doo-doo bird but who can tell the difference?

Hu

 

[Purdman]

Did you find that it is not permitted to import or
export ivory?

Dale

Not in 1973 officer Dale. The custom agent didn't seem to have a problem with it either for your information. They were more concerned with the case of beer than the Ivory. Seems only 1 gallon is allowed. He also let me pass with that. Fortunately, he didn't ask what was in the briefcase! My fellow poster, I do my best to live a decent life. I have for over 40 years. I do not agree with all your laws. As a matter of fact, if we all reacted out of love instead of fear, we wouldn't need any laws at all. Dale, I am not who you should be concerned in your law inforcement career. I am one of the good guys my friend. I am very happy that people like you are out there doing the job that you are doing. Just do me a big favor, use your time and energys going after the bad guys and give the good guys a break when ever you can. Take care and stay safe.
Purdman

 

[supergreenman]

And your point is >>>> elephants are important than trees? what happened to the population of trees? aren't trees worth saving? aren't they contibuted for the survival of planet earth?

Last I checked maple forests in Canada were a sustained managed resource. Your arguement is good for nothing misdirection and antagonizm.

I don't see you saying you're going to give up wood cues so what does that make you?

 

[LAMas]

Cracked ivory ferrules

Two of my friend that have older Tad cues noticed that their ivory ferrules had a hairline crack and had them replaced for around $90.00 + tip. Is it worth the extra cost? I have never had that problem with quality plastic ferrules.

 

[Purdman]

Two of my friend that have older Tad cues noticed that their ivory ferrules had a hairline crack and had them replaced for around $90.00 + tip. Is it worth the extra cost? I have never had that problem with quality plastic ferrules.

I have never had that problem with Ivory ferrules! However, I was just reading about all the poaching that is going on in Africa today. It is just as bad if not worse than before. So, I can honestly tell ya that Ivorine is fine with me. I will not support what is going on right now.

WASHINGTON - An international effort to halt the illegal killing of elephants for their ivory tusks has all but collapsed in most of Africa, leaving officials and advocates alarmed about the survival of the species. A study released yesterday estimates that as many as 23,000 of the animals were slaughtered last year alone.

There it is and that is all I need to know. Anybody want to argue with that, find somebody else to express it to. Your arguement is invalid.
Purdman

 

[MrLucky]

perhaps you should...

POOR OLD TREES ! being ignored again just because they ain't extinct yet but clearly on their way!

try some research firdt before typing and making yourself look uninformed to millions of people over the world wide web!

 

[cueman]

I have never had that problem with Ivory ferrules! However, I was just reading about all the poaching that is going on in Africa today. It is just as bad if not worse than before. So, I can honestly tell ya that Ivorine is fine with me. I will not support what is going on right now.

WASHINGTON - An international effort to halt the illegal killing of elephants for their ivory tusks has all but collapsed in most of Africa, leaving officials and advocates alarmed about the survival of the species. A study released yesterday estimates that as many as 23,000 of the animals were slaughtered last year alone.

There it is and that is all I need to know. Anybody want to argue with that, find somebody else to express it to. Your arguement is invalid.
Purdman

Yes poaching is a problem. Only one country over there is doing a good job. Too good of a job according to the article. They are over populating there. The thing I noticed is that it is Japan and China they are exporting the poached ivory to. The USA is not on the list of places smuggled ivory is coming to. I would not used poached Ivory knowingly. Most of the Ivory we buy from estate sales was taken pre 1989 ban in government approved Safari hunts. Those trophies brought back 30 plus years ago can decorate someones living room or someones cue. I see no reason not to use it. I do think Africa needs to crack back down on poachers. But old USA Estate ivory we use in cues contributes Zero percent to todays poaching problem.
If China and Japan crack down on smuggling of Ivory into their country it would dry up the market for illegal ivory and Africans would have little reason to poach. No one mentions the Asian elephant here. But they are more protected that the African elephants are. Yet most of the cheap import ivory inlaid cues everyone is buying on ebay are loaded with Asian Elephant ivory.
Todays Elephant endangerment problem can be traced to Africa and Asia alone. Cuemakers in the United states are not contibuting to the problem.
Chris
www.cuesmith.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

Last I checked maple forests in Canada were a sustained managed resource. Your arguement is good for nothing misdirection and antagonizm.

I don't see you saying you're going to give up wood cues so what does that make you?

Oh it's you superdude! you're alive!

It's not a misdirection, it is one way of saying to you that you must live to what you had spoken previously. that there are more important things than just elephants and if one must be concerned of such, you must not exclude and forget the other things or just simply ignore them. this is addressed to people that think they are righteous about certain things but tend to deny their wroingdoings in other matters concerned since you had talked about morality in general, might as well include all of it. I can't still forget your argument about stealing and lying with regards to ivory in cues ! that argument of yours was a true comedy classic ! that really made my day ! you are good for comedy is all I can say !

 

[NYC cue dude]

Someone asked the question, why are there so many who voted in the poll that they support the usage of ivory in pool cues, but very limited written support in this thread.

Clearly, there are two differing opinions on this matter. People who are opposed, have proven in this thread that they are willing to insult and shout down those with countering views. there have been quite a few posters who have no qualms calling people immoral for their support in the use of ivory.

Therein lies the reason that many people have not responded in the thread.

Btw, imo, if the ivory was obtained pre-ban, than I have no problem with it. I also have no problem with utilizing ivory that obtained from elephants that died by either old age or injury in the wild.

Furthermore, as far as hunting goes...

I have never hunted a mammal. (I do fish)
If it is legal, and someone chooses to do it, I also have no problem with it, although it is something I couldnt do.

As far as my personal choices go, I use leather, exotic skins, believe in the use of fur to keep warm, eat meat, own a gas guzzler and NEVER put a subspecies before the needs of humans.

Now, much like religion or politics, I understand these things may be offensive to others (similarly, I too may be offended by the "tree hugger" mentality), anbut I respect the opinions of others enough not to attack or insult them for their beliefs. I too expect the same consideration. In fact, here on this pool forum, I wont enter into a debate with anyone with opposing views. If for no other reason, that I understand that no one hear is going to change my mind, and I don't care to try to change anyone else.

rg

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

Someone asked the question, why are there so many who voted in the poll that they support the usage of ivory in pool cues, but very limited written support in this thread.

Clearly, there are two differing opinions on this matter. People who are opposed, have proven in this thread that they are willing to insult and shout down those with countering views. there have been quite a few posters who have no qualms calling people immoral for their support in the use of ivory.

Therein lies the reason that many people have not responded in the thread.

Btw, imo, if the ivory was obtained pre-ban, than I have no problem with it. I also have no problem with utilizing ivory that obtained from elephants that died by either old age or injury in the wild.

Furthermore, as far as hunting goes...

I have never hunted a mammal. (I do fish)
If it is legal, and someone chooses to do it, I also have no problem with it, although it is something I couldnt do.

As far as my personal choices go, I use leather, exotic skins, believe in the use of fur to keep warm, eat meat, own a gas guzzler and NEVER put a subspecies before the needs of humans.

Now, much like religion or politics, I understand these things may be offensive to others (similarly, I too may be offended by the "tree hugger" mentality), anbut I respect the opinions of others enough not to attack or insult them for their beliefs. I too expect the same consideration. In fact, here on this pool forum, I wont enter into a debate with anyone with opposing views. If for no other reason, that I understand that no one hear is going to change my mind, and I don't care to try to change anyone else.

rg

your point is duly noted your highness. unfortunately, some people here use sarcasm to people who are contrast to their opinion. Not to mention that some of these people miss the point of other people cause they are so preoccupied sticking their beliefs into other people's mind. what a way of convincing people. I, for one don't like it either but might as well return the favor rather than become a sitting duck being insulted for my opinion. it would have been nice if these people respect others point of view.

 

[yally]

your point is duly noted your highness. unfortunately, some people here use sarcasm to people who are contrast to their opinion. Not to mention that some of these people miss the point of other people cause they are so preoccupied sticking their beliefs into other people's mind. what a way of convincing people. I, for one don't like it either but might as well return the favor rather than become a sitting duck being insulted for my opinion. it would have been nice if these people respect others point of view.

Ahh...this response made me smile. I'll leave out the sarcasm I was going to put in to respond to your almost unintelligible response. The point is not "sticking beliefs into other people's mind" as you so eloquently explain, but presenting the FACTS to a very difficult situation.

To the thread:

The whole point of this thread is to question the moral dilemma of using a legal (if proven to be PREBAN) material. The fact that an item is legal does not automatically make it morally correct. You are legally able to smoke right in front of your kids, but would you knowing the potential results of second hand smoke? Legally, at one point in American history you could own slaves! (not too distant past). Yes, obviously this is different than the theme of our thread, but it does demonstrate the argument that if it's legal it's acceptable moot in a moral context. We look back on those issues now and you cringe at the thought of smoking in front of your kids, and the thought of slavery being acceptable is non-existant.

The problem with present day Ivory is the issue of whether or not pre ban Ivory is making it's way onto the marketplace. I still stick to my original post, in that with the amount of Ivory that is used yearly in the US should have severely depleted the amount of pre ban stock that is available. At the least, Ivory prices should be significantly higher than they are at it's present rate. Not rocket science here. Supply vs. demand.

If someone disagrees with this FACT, I would love (truthfully) to see an article, of quote from a documented source contradicting this. I would love to know that there are warehouses just full to the brim all over the US of available preban Ivory! This would significantly reduce my issue of illegal ivory making it's way onto the market as preban.

I absolutely do not claim to be better or worse than anyone who likes, or has no problem using Ivory. However, don't put me or other people down with foolish name calling (Treehugger, the classic) because we are willing to ask ourselves the hard moral questions instead of just taking or plundering whatever resources available for the benefit of our luxuries.

That's it. Peace out.

 

[JimS]

Jim, I agree with your statement, however, why shouldn't the countries in Africa be able to sell the ivory that already exists?
Elephants do die from natural causes and this produces a certain amount of ivory. Also, when poachers are captured, all of their ivory is confiscated by the authorities.
The sale of all of this ivory can help these countries finance the protection of the remaining elephants. I see no problem with the sale of this ivory on the world market.

I think that the original question was is it wrong to use ivory in cues?

The answer is yes it is wrong.

Using ivory in cues or anything else promotes the killing of elephants for no reason other than to decorate objects used by barbarians.

 

[cueman]

The problem with present day Ivory is the issue of whether or not pre ban Ivory is making it's way onto the marketplace. I still stick to my original post, in that with the amount of Ivory that is used yearly in the US should have severely depleted the amount of pre ban stock that is available. At the least, Ivory prices should be significantly higher than they are at it's present rate. Not rocket science here. Supply vs. demand.

If someone disagrees with this FACT, I would love (truthfully) to see an article, of quote from a documented source contradicting this. I would love to know that there are warehouses just full to the brim all over the US of available preban Ivory! This would significantly reduce my issue of illegal ivory making it's way onto the market as preban.

That's it. Peace out.

There are no super large ware houses of preban ivory that can be bought here. Occasionally an estate will sell off the trophies of someone who passed on and that is how we obtain 90% of the pre-ban tusks. In the late 80's I bought ivory from a supplier that was bringing intot he USA from Africa just for the cue market. When the ban went in effect he stopped. He told me he witnessed a public hanging of poachers over there, so he was not about to break the law.
Most tusks have indentification numbers on them that allow fish and game to look up when and where from they were brought into the country. The per pound price on raw tusks of pre ban stuff here is not as much as Japan and China are willing to pay for smuggled tusks, so there is no market here for illegal ivory. So you can rest assured USA cuemakers are not contributing to the poaching going on in Africa today. Would you rather see those old trophy tusks decorate someones living room or someones cue???
Chris
www.cuesmith.com
www.internationalcuemakers

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

I absolutely do not claim to be better or worse than anyone who likes, or has no problem using Ivory. However, don't put me or other people down with foolish name calling (Treehugger, the classic) because we are willing to ask ourselves the hard moral questions instead of just taking or plundering whatever resources available for the benefit of our luxuries.
That's it. Peace out.

My Apologies to you sir, I know it's silly some of the so-called arguments that I presented! The main intention of it is only for laughs and not a serious matter that we should be mad about and it is also a way of catching the attention and returning some favor to a lambaster (not you).

My views regarding the subject seriously is in-between or a stalemate. coz there are people who like to use Ivory in cues and other people who loves riding elephants. that is why my first post in this thread was about basing on people's conscience. If they buy because they aren't bothered by it, then buy, I won't stop them. I won't tie them or lambaste or throw 'em with paint all over like what most activists do. Nor do I force people to patronize the use of Ivory because it is also their matter of choice of not patronizing it. and some character here clearly missed or overlooked that point and even said that he understood it but actually didn't. instead I was lambasted and was presented a funny moral argument about lies and stealing lessons to my children that has nothing to do entirely with Ivory in Cues. by stating that argument, he made this into a general moral discussion which I obliged to answer and point some general moral topics of my own where he had difficulty answering and keeping his self-righteous persona intact and even disregard my arguments pointless. well, he should have thought of that first before he made that rude and insensible remark about lies and stealing, not to mention involving my family in it. now, is that clear enuff ? was there a sensible connection to his argument ? I guess the one who presented that argument before already knows what I am referring now upon reading this. I'm not surprised if it's difficult for other people to swallow their own medicine. well, that's what you get for sarcasm ! you don't need to be rude nor insult a person first just to have your sentiments heard. I deserve respect as person and so does everyone else here in this forum. sadly, there are a few who just disregard courtesy first.

Yally, Rest assure that your points are taken into consideration. atleast you made a sensible argument rather than just lambaste on someone unlike some characters here!

 

[crosseyedjoe]

This is my take on this, you don't need ivory on your cue stick.

 

[VIProfessor]

All right, once more into the breach!

After carefully reading the posts in this thread and considering the matter, it seems that clearly delineated battle lines have been drawn on an issue that is, IMHO, not a matter of black and white. While I am clearly opposed to the wholesale slaughter of elephants for their tusks, it is also equally clear that the issue of elephant survival differs from country to country on the African continent. South Africa, for example, is struggling with the issue of elephant overpopulation and the environmental impact that they have on other species (an adult elephant, BTW, consumes nearly 700 pounds of grass, trees and twigs daily); and Namibia and Botswana have booming elephant populations. An article in today's New York Times sheds further light on this subject. Furthermore, it does not appear that cue making is a significant factor in creating market demand for ivory--the demand comes from Asia for other uses. As such, the cessation of ivory usage in cues would not impact elephant poaching one way or the other.

In my opinion, if cuemakers ceased to use ivory in cues, it would be a nice gesture of solidarity with our elephant brethren in countries where they are threatened, but it would not significantly affect their plight.

 

[ShootingArts]

summed it up nicely!

All right, once more into the breach!

After carefully reading the posts in this thread and considering the matter, it seems that clearly delineated battle lines have been drawn on an issue that is, IMHO, not a matter of black and white. While I am clearly opposed to the wholesale slaughter of elephants for their tusks, it is also equally clear that the issue of elephant survival differs from country to country on the African continent. South Africa, for example, is struggling with the issue of elephant overpopulation and the environmental impact that they have on other species (an adult elephant, BTW, consumes nearly 700 pounds of grass, trees and twigs daily); and Namibia and Botswana have booming elephant populations. An article in today's New York Times sheds further light on this subject. Furthermore, it does not appear that cue making is a significant factor in creating market demand for ivory--the demand comes from Asia for other uses. As such, the cessation of ivory usage in cues would not impact elephant poaching one way or the other.

In my opinion, if cuemakers ceased to use ivory in cues, it would be a nice gesture of solidarity with our elephant brethren in countries where they are threatened, but it would not significantly affect their plight.

I'd say you summed it up nicely. One thing that hasn't been touched on is how little ivory cue makers actually use. I have six ounces of legal ivory inlay material on my shelf. That is enough to make a very flashy cue or two or three cues with nice ivory and put a touch of ivory on a few more. Even with the loss in processing, the tusks from one elephant can make many many cue sticks. One set of decent tusks would last me forever and my estate would be selling some.

Hu