Is Mike Sigel the best ever?

madfedaykin said:
Great read this thread. There's so much first-hand stories and opinions from knowledgeable pool pundits for everyone to benefit from. I know I gained a lot after reading this thread from start to finish (20 pages as of date).

Here's a couple of questions for those who think Efren should not be the GOAT because of his less than stellar record on world championships (WC). If there were as many rotation WC as there are 9-ball WC or straight pool WC, how many do you think would Efren have won of the former? Say he wins just 5 rotation world championships in the span of 20 years (i think 15/20 is a more realistic estimate), would that have changed your mind on putting Earl, Mike, or Mosconi ahead of him? I guess these aren't really questions. Just trying to make a point that world championship wins should not count as much since there are no world championships for all pool disciplines.

I would like to extend my point to cover tournament wins as well. What if there were as many rotation tournaments as say 9-ball or straight pool, how many of that would have Efren won? :D
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Those are all hypothetical "what if's". A player has to find a way to win the championship game of choice being played at the time. I don't feel Reyes had quite the drive to win that Sigel, Mosconi, Worst, Lassiter etc had. He never really dominated an era. The fact of the matter is that Reyes didn't start winning big events until Sigel retired.
 
Hypothetical, yes. But a valid point nonetheless. Considering the range of skills that these elite players possess, the multidimensional nature of the sport, and the lack of comprehensive stats, one can't help but speculate sometimes when asked the question of "who is the best of all time". There are just too many variables to consider in evaluating the merits of one player's skills, achievements, impact to the sport, etc. vs. another player. The point that I raised above is just one of various complications. How does a follower of the sport evaluate an "all around best" in a sport with many disciplines. Each of which is topped by a player different from the best in another discipline. For example, Sigel's unparalleled tournament wins in 9-ball could only say so much about how he should be evaluated in 1-pocket, banks, etc. My opinion is that each pool discipline should have equal weight in determining an "all around best". Efren still leads in my book based on that assumption:

Efren (3 points for 1-pocket, 8-ball, rotation)
Sigel (1 point for 9-ball)
Mosconi (1 point for straight pool)

I am not familiar enough with the other pool disciplines to cast a vote for them.

The "best of all time" is a different matter. Other factors such as those I mentioned above come in to play and make it more difficult to draw a conclusive argument.

So success in 9-ball carry more weight because it is the sport of choice in recent years? And Efren would not have won all those big tournaments if Sigel did not retire?
 
madfedaykin said:
Hypothetical, yes. But a valid point nonetheless. Considering the range of skills that these elite players possess, the multidimensional nature of the sport, and the lack of comprehensive stats, one can't help but speculate sometimes when asked the question of "who is the best of all time". There are just too many variables to consider in evaluating the merits of one player's skills, achievements, impact to the sport, etc. vs. another player. The point that I raised above is just one of various complications. How does a follower of the sport evaluate an "all around best" in a sport with many disciplines. Each of which is topped by a player different from the best in another discipline. For example, Sigel's unparalleled tournament wins in 9-ball could only say so much about how he should be evaluated in 1-pocket, banks, etc. My opinion is that each pool discipline should have equal weight in determining an "all around best". Efren still leads in my book based on that assumption:

Efren (3 points for 1-pocket, 8-ball, rotation)
Sigel (1 point for 9-ball)
Mosconi (1 point for straight pool)

I am not familiar enough with the other pool disciplines to cast a vote for them.

The "best of all time" is a different matter. Other factors such as those I mentioned above come in to play and make it more difficult to draw a conclusive argument.

So success in 9-ball carry more weight because it is the sport of choice in recent years? And Efren would not have won all those big tournaments if Sigel did not retire?
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Sigel was the best (of his era) at two games at least, 14.1 and 9 ball. And IMO was at least as good as Reyes in 8-ball - Sigel in the 2005 IPT thing was a shadow of his former self. Sigel never took up one pocket too seriously because there weren't too many tournaments.

The way I see it, in the last 30-40 years the best all-around are:

1-Sigel
2-Varner/Reyes
3-Mizerak

Reyes may be great at Rotation but we only have gambling to go by. We don't have Rotation events so who knows what would happen if we did...many more players woyuld take the game up and then who knows what would happen.
 
While I too think Sigel was the best, at least in the last 30 years or so, I think a good case can be made for Varner. He's the only player to ever win a World Championship in every pool discipline: Straight pool, 9 ball, 8 ball, one pocket and banks, how strong is that?
 
Bobby said:
While I too think Sigel was the best, at least in the last 30 years or so, I think a good case can be made for Varner. He's the only player to ever win a World Championship in every pool discipline: Straight pool, 9 ball, 8 ball, one pocket and banks, how strong is that?
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Stronger then backup ear muffs
 
Bobby said:
While I too think Sigel was the best, at least in the last 30 years or so, I think a good case can be made for Varner. He's the only player to ever win a World Championship in every pool discipline: Straight pool, 9 ball, 8 ball, one pocket and banks, how strong is that?
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I wrote letter(s) to Billiard Digest & Pool & Billiard magazine over the years asking them to please do an in-depth article on Nick Varner. I mentioned in all my letters & e-mails to them that not even Efren has won World Championships in all 5 pocket disciplines. Nothing.

Be nice to see Mike Gefner do a full length story on Nick. I'd be real interested on his days w/ Hubert Cokes.
 
Terry Ardeno said:
I wrote letter(s) to Billiard Digest & Pool & Billiard magazine over the years asking them to please do an in-depth article on Nick Varner. I mentioned in all my letters & e-mails to them that not even Efren has won World Championships in all 5 pocket disciplines. Nothing.

Be nice to see Mike Gefner do a full length story on Nick. I'd be real interested on his days w/ Hubert Cokes.
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nicks prime a little before my time.
but i think the best all around that we have.
one pocket
banks
9 ball
14.1
8 ball
have fun trying to beat him in an all around.
and i like the way he would win and lose with class.
 
real bartram said:
nicks prime a little before my time.
but i think the best all around that we have.
one pocket
banks
9 ball
14.1
8 ball
have fun trying to beat him in an all around.
and i like the way he would win and lose with class.
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For sure!
Take out the banks, Hopkins & Nick would be a great match up.
Take out the 14.1, Buddy & Nick would be a great match up.

But all 5 together, Nick's just a great player.
 
Terry Ardeno said:
I wrote letter(s) to Billiard Digest & Pool & Billiard magazine over the years asking them to please do an in-depth article on Nick Varner. I mentioned in all my letters & e-mails to them that not even Efren has won World Championships in all 5 pocket disciplines. Nothing.

Be nice to see Mike Gefner do a full length story on Nick. I'd be real interested on his days w/ Hubert Cokes.
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He also went to the Philippines and beat Efren...
..not too many have done that...Efren speaks well of him.

I believe it was Toni Morrison who said "If you're looking for a book and
it hasn't been written, then you have to write it."

So how about it Terry? I think you could write a good one.
 
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Terry Ardeno said:
I wrote letter(s) to Billiard Digest & Pool & Billiard magazine over the years asking them to please do an in-depth article on Nick Varner. I mentioned in all my letters & e-mails to them that not even Efren has won World Championships in all 5 pocket disciplines. Nothing.

Be nice to see Mike Gefner do a full length story on Nick. I'd be real interested on his days w/ Hubert Cokes.
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I too have always been curious about Varner and Cokes.

I wonder if Varner ever played billiards or snooker....he's just such a complete player, and very knowledgeable, I wouldn't be surprised if he was proficient at those games as well.

The only reason I rate Sigel higher (just slightly) is because he was just such a winning player...I never wanted to bet against Sigel no matter who he was playing in a final, you just knew he wasn't going to miss.
 
I heard a rumor when I was a kid that Parica spotted Sigel and Varner for the cash. Seemed hard to believe when I heard it, but I was told by multiple people that Parica gave Sigel the 8 and Varner the 7. Can anyone verify this?
 
A couple of things...

Last I heard, 9-ball was a rotation game... and as Pat Flemming said; Efren & Busto are so good at 9-ball because they are playing with half-a rack...

So... IF rotation (9 or 15) is supposedly their best games why have they not been able to pull off multiple world titles? Like Earl Strickland, Mike Sigel, Nick Varner and Buddy Hall? (btw all of which have beat Efren & Busto more than they beat them) ditto for Keith McCready another long time Efren nemesis...

IMHO you cannot be considered the best of the best, when you do not have a record of coming out on top consistently when the best of the best are playing under the same roof...

Parica as far as I can tell has never won a national or world championship; while he has been in the finals and the top 10 a number of times...

I have watched Parica play a lot; and I think the best game he ever played to-date was when he beat Shane Van Boening at the 2008 US Open 9 Ball... his out shot was an awesome 4-ball, kick-bank-carom us mere mortals would need a slide-rule to figure out...
(btw SVB shot himself in the foot when he missed an easy 8 down the rail a few games before)

Yes Mike Sigel has won world/national one-pocket championships too; amongst the over 100 others...

Only one I think that comes close to those shear numbers to-date is Buddy Hall...

One-Pocket Record Book:
1979 US Open One Pocket Division Winner - Mike Sigel
http://www.onepocket.org/records.htm

One of Mike Sigel's many nicknames well deserved remains... "Mr. Finals"
Notwithstanding, youngest to be put in hall of fame at like 34/35 years of age...

I also agree that Nick Varner does not get the recognition he deserves...

What always sticks in my mind is he won his first world/national title at age 40 (Forty) ! (according to Steve Mizerak, whom was commenting about Nick on a match I have from the 80's)

The IPT debacle aside; Mike Sigel has still won more world/national 8-ball & 9-ball titles than Efren and I do not think Efren has ever won a World Straight pool title and Mike has won more than anybody to-date; with Straight-Pool being the ultimate measure of an Pool Players overall ability; I think Straight Pool Alone should settle it...
Even if neither Efren nor Mike have the high-runs that Schmidt, Engert and some others have...
I don't think they have been going to 200 in Semi-Finals and Finals very many years; as it seems 150 was it in Sigel's, Mizerak's, Crane and Mosconni's days...

And Mike sure had the lions share of 150 & outs...

If John Schmidt fully recovers from his right arm being broken and shoulder being torn up fully; he may yet beat Mosconni's high run of 526, if not the machines "Engert, Ortmann and Hohmann" may ...

His 294 High-Run on a Diamond DVD is pretty good...
 
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Bohemian said:
A couple of things...

Last I heard, 9-ball was a rotation game... and as Pat Flemming said; Efren & Busto are so good at 9-ball because they are playing with half-a rack......
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the rotation/ 9b comparison is not ass imple as it is often made to be...

Real rotation permits a player to shoot at the highest or lowest ball on each shot and the goal is not to make a specific ball, but a # of points.

I think may know that, but some don't...:)
 
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